Elder Scrolls V....
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The Witcher 2...
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I would really like it if a cRPG using the DND world/rules could be made using engines like these...
Débuté par
M. Rieder
, juin 10 2011 02:28
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#2
Posté 10 juin 2011 - 03:55
nicethugbert
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Yes, and I really like it if the movement and response is not slow like NWN2, but fast like DA2.
#3
Posté 11 juin 2011 - 01:41
UrkOfGreyhawk
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Neither of those engines has any support for companions. That kind of defeats the whole idea of using the D&D rules.
#4
Posté 11 juin 2011 - 02:04
MasterChanger
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Both of these engines are profoundly different from either NWN or DA. While they offer some potential lessons, they are also some aspects that just don't translate.
At their core, these games place much more emphasis on execution of each attack by the player as opposed to the the execution by the character. As a wolf leaps up, you (the player) have to precisely time your swing to catch it before it catches you. In D&D, whether you hit or miss is determined entirely by how you build your character and a roll of the dice--and if you're playing in a more interactive way, perhaps even by what sort of attack you're using.
In some ways, I believe that a D&D cRPG could benefit from slightly more emphasis on the player's skill, not just in building the character, but throughout gameplay as well. However, this would take the genre farther from its PnP roots; in table-top play there's no possible relationship between how quickly you click on your enemy and how your character executes there attack.
Dragon Age presents an interesting compromise in terms of interaction between the more button-masher games and NWN (where you might only touch the mouse or keyboard every three minutes unless you're a spell-caster). The way it does this is by not using a round-based system. Why does this make a difference? Well, in NWN 1/2 you can theoretically try to kite your enemies or use other position-based tactics. However, being limited to just one action per round--and not necessarily knowing when that round begins or ends--makes this kind of timing almost impossible to achieve predictably. In DA, your character performs the action you tell them to when you tell them to do it in a by-and-large predictable way.
In some ways, the round-based system is an attempt to stay true to NWN's PnP roots. However, in its present manifestation I believe it pleases neither turn-based purists nor more action-oriented players. If we want more fluid play, I truly believe that this is the core issue to resolve.
At their core, these games place much more emphasis on execution of each attack by the player as opposed to the the execution by the character. As a wolf leaps up, you (the player) have to precisely time your swing to catch it before it catches you. In D&D, whether you hit or miss is determined entirely by how you build your character and a roll of the dice--and if you're playing in a more interactive way, perhaps even by what sort of attack you're using.
In some ways, I believe that a D&D cRPG could benefit from slightly more emphasis on the player's skill, not just in building the character, but throughout gameplay as well. However, this would take the genre farther from its PnP roots; in table-top play there's no possible relationship between how quickly you click on your enemy and how your character executes there attack.
Dragon Age presents an interesting compromise in terms of interaction between the more button-masher games and NWN (where you might only touch the mouse or keyboard every three minutes unless you're a spell-caster). The way it does this is by not using a round-based system. Why does this make a difference? Well, in NWN 1/2 you can theoretically try to kite your enemies or use other position-based tactics. However, being limited to just one action per round--and not necessarily knowing when that round begins or ends--makes this kind of timing almost impossible to achieve predictably. In DA, your character performs the action you tell them to when you tell them to do it in a by-and-large predictable way.
In some ways, the round-based system is an attempt to stay true to NWN's PnP roots. However, in its present manifestation I believe it pleases neither turn-based purists nor more action-oriented players. If we want more fluid play, I truly believe that this is the core issue to resolve.
#6
Posté 11 juin 2011 - 03:11
Lugaid of the Red Stripes
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Alternating between playing an action RPG (Mount and Blade: Warband) and testing my own modules, I've come to appreciate how the NWN rounds allow you to sit back, watch the action unfold, and plan your next move instead of being consumed with split-second button mashing. Its more about taking in the overall tactical situation and making decisions than muddling through blow-by-blow.
I imagine if NWN2 had better-looking, more fluid animations, you'd get a sense that instead of awkwardly controlling a character, you were merely guiding an autonomous and fairly competent character. The round system might not be the best way to do this, but I can see it being used by a talented animator to properly choreograph fights 6 seconds at a time as the die rolls are calculated (e.g. actually showing the PC dodging when their dodge AC stops an attack, or critical hits actually hitting something critical). For all its flaws, d20 is actually a pretty good way to abstract armed combat, it just needs a game engine that highlights its strengths.
I imagine if NWN2 had better-looking, more fluid animations, you'd get a sense that instead of awkwardly controlling a character, you were merely guiding an autonomous and fairly competent character. The round system might not be the best way to do this, but I can see it being used by a talented animator to properly choreograph fights 6 seconds at a time as the die rolls are calculated (e.g. actually showing the PC dodging when their dodge AC stops an attack, or critical hits actually hitting something critical). For all its flaws, d20 is actually a pretty good way to abstract armed combat, it just needs a game engine that highlights its strengths.
#7
Posté 11 juin 2011 - 03:29
painofdungeoneternal
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Isn't the witcher based on NWN1.
I don't see a new game based on those as offering much of substance, especially one based on those two games. Frankly i'd prefer a few minor tweaks to NWN2 ( mostly coming from a 1.24 patch ) than a completely new beast with entirely new flaws. While a completely different direction will benefit somethings, i think the entire concept NWN is aimed at which is a RPG game which is really moddable by the community who can tell their own stories via modules, dm client and pw - frankly those games don't even hold a candle to that.
The issues in NWN are slowly being reined in by the community. Even the animations are things we can do ourselves at this point. Really if it were not for Atari deciding they wanted to make money off of their new D&D MMO and thus had obsidian stop supporting/patching NWN2 many of the issues folks complain about would be addressed.
I don't see a new game based on those as offering much of substance, especially one based on those two games. Frankly i'd prefer a few minor tweaks to NWN2 ( mostly coming from a 1.24 patch ) than a completely new beast with entirely new flaws. While a completely different direction will benefit somethings, i think the entire concept NWN is aimed at which is a RPG game which is really moddable by the community who can tell their own stories via modules, dm client and pw - frankly those games don't even hold a candle to that.
The issues in NWN are slowly being reined in by the community. Even the animations are things we can do ourselves at this point. Really if it were not for Atari deciding they wanted to make money off of their new D&D MMO and thus had obsidian stop supporting/patching NWN2 many of the issues folks complain about would be addressed.
#8
Posté 11 juin 2011 - 04:54
MasterChanger
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Pain, I ultimately don't disagree with you. I don't see these other games as something that I'd ever devote myself to like I have the NWN series, which are "a RPG game[s] which is really moddable by the community who can tell their own stories via modules, dm client and pw". And yet, there are certain things that, even with a lot of modding, are just very difficult to do in this engine, and maybe some of those things could be possible in Plan 9, so it's worth discussing them, isn't it?
I'll bring up one very simple example: reach. The reach weapons have is an important concept in D&D, and yet it makes almost no difference in NWN 1/2. In fact, it's very difficult for modders to make reach have a big impact in NWN 2, unless one entirely reconstructs combat a la The Tome of Battle. If someone decides that they want darting back and forth in combat to be viable (as we saw in that Skyrim trailer) then reach would probably have to be something they address.
By all means, if you believe that a change like this is possible in NWN2 with what is currently available to us, I'd love to hear it--and so would M. Rieder, I'm betting. But my belief is that, while many things are indeed possible in NWN2 with a serious amount of work put in (mounts! :-D ), some really interesting and worthwhile things will remain very difficult to achieve. My impression is that this is the reason we want and need Plan 9.
I'll bring up one very simple example: reach. The reach weapons have is an important concept in D&D, and yet it makes almost no difference in NWN 1/2. In fact, it's very difficult for modders to make reach have a big impact in NWN 2, unless one entirely reconstructs combat a la The Tome of Battle. If someone decides that they want darting back and forth in combat to be viable (as we saw in that Skyrim trailer) then reach would probably have to be something they address.
By all means, if you believe that a change like this is possible in NWN2 with what is currently available to us, I'd love to hear it--and so would M. Rieder, I'm betting. But my belief is that, while many things are indeed possible in NWN2 with a serious amount of work put in (mounts! :-D ), some really interesting and worthwhile things will remain very difficult to achieve. My impression is that this is the reason we want and need Plan 9.
#9
Posté 11 juin 2011 - 06:12
UrkOfGreyhawk
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painofdungeoneternal wrote...
Isn't the witcher based on NWN1.
Yes. The original witcher used a modified Aurora toolset.
Modifié par UrkOfGreyhawk, 11 juin 2011 - 06:15 .
#10
Posté 11 juin 2011 - 11:12
painofdungeoneternal
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MasterChanger wrote...
Pain, I ultimately don't disagree with you. I don't see these other games as something that I'd ever devote myself to like I have the NWN series, which are "a RPG game[s] which is really moddable by the community who can tell their own stories via modules, dm client and pw". And yet, there are certain things that, even with a lot of modding, are just very difficult to do in this engine, and maybe some of those things could be possible in Plan 9, so it's worth discussing them, isn't it?
I'll bring up one very simple example: reach. The reach weapons have is an important concept in D&D, and yet it makes almost no difference in NWN 1/2. In fact, it's very difficult for modders to make reach have a big impact in NWN 2, unless one entirely reconstructs combat a la The Tome of Battle. If someone decides that they want darting back and forth in combat to be viable (as we saw in that Skyrim trailer) then reach would probably have to be something they address.
By all means, if you believe that a change like this is possible in NWN2 with what is currently available to us, I'd love to hear it--and so would M. Rieder, I'm betting. But my belief is that, while many things are indeed possible in NWN2 with a serious amount of work put in (mounts! :-D ), some really interesting and worthwhile things will remain very difficult to achieve. My impression is that this is the reason we want and need Plan 9.
You'd be surprised at what is possible. You even point out how its been done, but seem to think it's more than a 2da change and weapon swap. Tome of battle really showed where things are headed, really this is a process of recreation of each engine feature soas to make a new game. I can also just do an appearance override to double a creatures reach - which is being done now with horses, swimming. Yes a lot of work, but once that work is done it's just as easy to use as other systems like spell hooks, tag based scripting, waypoint scripting, or horses in NWN1.
We are not even getting into what can be done via NWNX and the CE. ( some PWs are right now testing a completely replaced script engine which runs scripts at nearly native code speeds similar to how C# works, in NWN1 they have long had NWNx functions to allow in depth modding of how combat works on PW's, and i am hopeful that the NWNx features can eventually be included in the CE )
The issues you are talking about are trivial compared to making the witcher do a tenth of what NWN2 does. Our community has much deeper access to modding this game, comparable to games created by scratch as open source projects, we are not just modding at the edges like most do, we've recreated the core skeletons, editors for file formats, compilers for the code, and even replaced core code inside the game for networking, scripting and resource loading - not to mention fixing numerous bugs, adding spells and abilities. There is very little difference between what this community can do and what Bioware or Obsidian can do.
You could very easily describe what is being built as NWN3. This is being built, it will have horses, customized levelup, new classes, mana spell casters, new custom spell books, it ( meaning engine, animations, scripts, everything ) is rewritten almost completely and will have a custom installer, but it is entirely backward compatible with the original game as well. There is a dedicated group working in a loose alliance united to accomplish that common goal of making NWN2 into the game which got our hopes up when it was first described, if you want things done right you got to do them yourself.
Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 11 juin 2011 - 11:18 .
#11
Posté 11 juin 2011 - 12:05
kamal_
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I figured this thread was from a looks perspective. But you know what, I'm not sure I'd want something that looked that good. The reason being is that it takes large teams of people to produce something that looks that good and detailed. Look at DA mods, we saw very few because of the amount of man hours that kind of production requires.
And if you don't produce something near those standards, it's going to look worse in comparison than the typical nwn1/2 module versus the official content. If I download and play a nwn1/2 mod, the delta between what the mod maker can do and what the official content looks like is smaller. Seeing the ultra detailed models of creatures and placeables put onto a "flat surface" just makes things worse than when the model/placeable detail level matches what an amateur can achieve.
Also, the nwn1/2 engine is enough that a single person or very small team can produce something of substance and length. And that just doesn't seem possible with these new engines. Outside nw games, I just see an extremely small amount of community made adventures of any length that aren't forced to take place in the existing official gameworld/map. So from a perspective of allowing the community to show their creativity and for me to enjoy that, it's just not there.
And if you don't produce something near those standards, it's going to look worse in comparison than the typical nwn1/2 module versus the official content. If I download and play a nwn1/2 mod, the delta between what the mod maker can do and what the official content looks like is smaller. Seeing the ultra detailed models of creatures and placeables put onto a "flat surface" just makes things worse than when the model/placeable detail level matches what an amateur can achieve.
Also, the nwn1/2 engine is enough that a single person or very small team can produce something of substance and length. And that just doesn't seem possible with these new engines. Outside nw games, I just see an extremely small amount of community made adventures of any length that aren't forced to take place in the existing official gameworld/map. So from a perspective of allowing the community to show their creativity and for me to enjoy that, it's just not there.
#12
Posté 11 juin 2011 - 12:20
PJ156
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kamal_ wrote...
I figured this thread was from a looks perspective. But you know what, I'm not sure I'd want something that looked that good. The reason being is that it takes large teams of people to produce something that looks that good and detailed. Look at DA mods, we saw very few because of the amount of man hours that kind of production requires.
And if you don't produce something near those standards, it's going to look worse in comparison than the typical nwn1/2 module versus the official content. If I download and play a nwn1/2 mod, the delta between what the mod maker can do and what the official content looks like is smaller. Seeing the ultra detailed models of creatures and placeables put onto a "flat surface" just makes things worse than when the model/placeable detail level matches what an amateur can achieve.
Also, the nwn1/2 engine is enough that a single person or very small team can produce something of substance and length. And that just doesn't seem possible with these new engines. Outside nw games, I just see an extremely small amount of community made adventures of any length that aren't forced to take place in the existing official gameworld/map. So from a perspective of allowing the community to show their creativity and for me to enjoy that, it's just not there.
I agree, I constantly want to do more visually in the toolset but it still looks great with a moderate amoung of effort. Better than the OC can be done with experience.
I think sometimes we push the boundaries on the toolset and that is great. We can ride horses, climb and swim (thanks to RWS) soon we will walk the streets of Baldurs Gate again and climb the lofty towers of the severed hand.
But actually we don't need to; though I am not in any way knocking those who are doing this great work. With a good imagination, basic computing skills and the patience of a saint a very entertaining module can be made from the vanilla toolset.
Asd Kamal sai, once the toolset moves beyond the reach of a single person to create a game in a few months (okay years) the the community will drift away and we would be stuck waiting for the next proffessional offering to be released.
PJ
#13
Posté 11 juin 2011 - 12:52
kamal_
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Pretty much. I'm not saying I wouldn't like a toolset that had a true z axis for walking over bridges and under them, or mounts built in, or climbing/walkmeshes for building roofs. But these capabilities are in a different class, these are things that almost have to be built in (look how long mounts took for instance). Skyrim/Witcher 2 graphics have reached the point where the ability to tell stories outside the default gameworld now is essentially outside the realm of the individual/small team. Look at the BG2 in Dragon Age engine, after all this time, working from the story beginnning, they've finished..... Irenicus dungeon. The builder can no longer rely on the players imagination to fill in the fine detail of the world.PJ156 wrote...
Asd Kamal sai, once the toolset moves beyond the reach of a single person to create a game in a few months (okay years) the the community will drift away and we would be stuck waiting for the next proffessional offering to be released.
PJ
And so we lose the individual visions and means for new authors to create and get experience. There would be no Almraiven, no White Plume Mountain, etc.Game communities wind up waiting for the next DLC. Even the Dragon Age engine, produced so few mods longer than 15 minutes you can count them on your hands. Nevermind that even releasing a toolset is now something the accounting department weighs versus dlc sales. I think that's what happened to a toolset supporting DA2.
#14
Posté 11 juin 2011 - 03:09
Lugaid of the Red Stripes
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Looking at the trailers above, I don't see any real increase in area design complexity, just finer textures, better lighting engines, and well-thought-out art direction. The Witcher 2 in particular has some very well-done, very naturalistic animations. That kind of stuff isn't beyond the capacity of NWN2, we just have to wait until the community gets around to re-doing all the animations and builds up a bigger stock of custom-content.
As for the reason NWN and NWN2 have so many modules and DA has next to none, I think it mostly comes down to how well the community trains new modders and gets them up and running. A bunch of tools like YATT, MultiBrush, and Tanita's Water Mill helps too.
As for the reason NWN and NWN2 have so many modules and DA has next to none, I think it mostly comes down to how well the community trains new modders and gets them up and running. A bunch of tools like YATT, MultiBrush, and Tanita's Water Mill helps too.
#15
Posté 11 juin 2011 - 03:35
kamal_
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I'd say the lack of modules and area prefabs from games with more advanced toolsets (DA/Oblivion) points to the difficulty of a really advanced toolset in area generation for amateurs. From a modder standpoint, getting a bunch of high quality community madeLugaid of the Red Stripes wrote...
I don't see any real increase in area design complexity, just finer textures, better lighting engines, and well-thought-out art direction..
placeables and monster models that look like they belong and don't stick out from poorer texturing/lack of polygons is going to be an
issue. Having to try building with stock can really limit you as well, as DA modders found out when they discovered they couldn't resize placeables (and I haven't seen a lot of community made placeables for DA/Oblivion either). You can only build in environments similar to what is in official content, there will be no DA modules set in the desert or "asia" for instance.
#16
Posté 11 juin 2011 - 03:36
M. Rieder
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Oooops!!!!!
I meant to say that I wanted the great graphics and seamless areas with the physics engines to allow flying and jumping and such. I certainly don't like button mashing. Choosing which weapon to use from the hotbar is quite enough for me. And, of course, I would not want to give up the ability to control a party.
Pretty much I just want a make-over of NWN2 with a physics engine, prettier texturing, and seamless areas.
I meant to say that I wanted the great graphics and seamless areas with the physics engines to allow flying and jumping and such. I certainly don't like button mashing. Choosing which weapon to use from the hotbar is quite enough for me. And, of course, I would not want to give up the ability to control a party.
Pretty much I just want a make-over of NWN2 with a physics engine, prettier texturing, and seamless areas.
#17
Posté 11 juin 2011 - 08:14
UrkOfGreyhawk
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I wholeheartedly agree with kamal. A hobby toolset needs to be simpler. Graphics need to take a back seat to the communities ability to add custom content. Even NWN2 kinda fails in that sense because of the outrageous software requirements for adding animations to models.I think NWN is the best home modding tool you're going to find for a long time coming.
#18
Posté 11 juin 2011 - 08:43
MasterChanger
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painofdungeoneternal wrote...
You'd be surprised at what is possible. You even point out how its been done, but seem to think it's more than a 2da change and weapon swap. Tome of battle really showed where things are headed, really this is a process of recreation of each engine feature soas to make a new game. I can also just do an appearance override to double a creatures reach - which is being done now with horses, swimming. Yes a lot of work, but once that work is done it's just as easy to use as other systems like spell hooks, tag based scripting, waypoint scripting, or horses in NWN1.
I realized after I posted this that there were details I left out in this particular example that better explain the challenges. I did try modifying weapon reaches dramatically and scripted an ability for an attacker to hop backwards to make use of the longer reach while keeping their opponent at bay. Long story short, it made almost no difference, because a move action would end up shoved into the action queue in a way that screwed the person who was doing the attack-retreat combo as much as their opponent.
Basically, what I'm getting at is that there are some things that are moddable in NWN2 in a brute-force way but that become so inelegant in execution that they are not practical. Are there other ways that have not yet been explored? I sure hope so! If I'm being a gadfly saying, "I want X, and doing Y is difficult, and whine and moan and we need a new engine!" then I think I'm providing a fantastic opportunity for you to say exactly what you're saying: we will have a new engine, it will just be NWN2 reinvented by the community, and it won't be a project released at all once, but a constantly evolving work.
painofdungeoneternal wrote...
You could very easily describe what is being built as NWN3. This is being built, it will have horses, customized levelup, new classes, mana spell casters, new custom spell books, it ( meaning engine, animations, scripts, everything ) is rewritten almost completely and will have a custom installer, but it is entirely backward compatible with the original game as well. There is a dedicated group working in a loose alliance united to accomplish that common goal of making NWN2 into the game which got our hopes up when it was first described, if you want things done right you got to do them yourself.
That's awesome. You have my whole-hearted support, and if you want help, let me know. If the physics the M. Rieder's been talking about can be included and the round system is able to be treated less rigidly (partial-round actions, for example, instead of just full-round or instant) I'll be all over this thing.
The work you're doing is great--and every opportunity to cheerlead for it should be snapped up. The professional hype machines at EA/Bioware, Bethesda, and so on, are in full gear. I don't think a completely community-led project could or should compete with them on their own terms, but getting people excited is always a good thing.
#19
Posté 11 juin 2011 - 10:53
painofdungeoneternal
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MasterChanger wrote...
Basically, what I'm getting at is that there are some things that are moddable in NWN2 in a brute-force way but that become so inelegant in execution that they are not practical. Are there other ways that have not yet been explored? I sure hope so! If I'm being a gadfly saying, "I want X, and doing Y is difficult, and whine and moan and we need a new engine!" then I think I'm providing a fantastic opportunity for you to say exactly what you're saying: we will have a new engine, it will just be NWN2 reinvented by the community, and it won't be a project released at all once, but a constantly evolving work.
That is what NWNx is really, the real issue is that most of the combat related features for NWNx only exist in NWN1 but is allows you to replace parts of the engine entirely. For example there is a plugin that allows you to create a scripted event for each time pick pocket is used, the only real limits are how good of a coder you are. There are other plugins to remove bugs that crash the server, adding database support, trigger system commands. Compared to what has been done in NWN1 we have very little options at this point, but that is just a matter of time.
It is really something now limited to PW's, which make the broader community not aware of what it can do, and since anything scripted requires installing something these plugins cannot really become a standard part of the game. The big change is the client extension, which i forsee eventually allowing either NWNx style plugins for the single player game, and once this can happen then the best plugins can become standard features everyone uses.
#20
Posté 12 juin 2011 - 01:48
M. Rieder
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UrkOfGreyhawk wrote...
I wholeheartedly agree with kamal. A hobby toolset needs to be simpler. Graphics need to take a back seat to the communities ability to add custom content. Even NWN2 kinda fails in that sense because of the outrageous software requirements for adding animations to models.I think NWN is the best home modding tool you're going to find for a long time coming.
It's a valid point. I am not sure that better graphics neccesarily means more complicated toolset, but then again, I know nothing of such things. It really doesn't matter that much, since pretty graphics are just pretty graphics and the important thing is whether the story is fun.
#21
Posté 12 juin 2011 - 03:35
UrkOfGreyhawk
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Better graphics doesn't affect the complexity of the engine. At least not directly. But it does make developing models for the engine MUCH more difficult and complicated, so there is an indirect correlation in that it becomes more difficult to develop custom content for it.
#22
Posté 12 juin 2011 - 04:48
painofdungeoneternal
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It is a bit of a fools argument.
What does any of this have to do with the engine. It has to do with the artist doing the artwork. Sure polygon count and shadows matter, but then i have to dial those things down so they work right in my prefs. I remember my art teacher telling me the tools or subject matter are not even important, it's the execution and ability to use those tools that matter. A great artist is capable of drawing a piece of poop and making it look beautiful. Like wise a well told story makes you completely forget the fact that there is not a game out there which looks as perfect as a movie like Avatar, or even as good as it's own cutscene movies, despite how good they are at this point you can still tell it's just a game when you look at it. To me the best artists go the other way, and make things stylized and unrealistic, or like OOTS.
Graphics is how good the artist is, not the engine. I watched the videos from E3, and found the screen shots by the best modders in nwn2 to actually be better, at least to me. I would much prefer to see content by Hellfire and Johnny Ree and Project Q to the things i see in most games. We had one modder pop in for about a month and do a efreeti and a hill giant which looked like they hopped out of an actual monster manual, that stuff is amazing. Areas, with the right builder those things just look fantastically good.
Sure i'd love it if i could cherry pick the best things from different games, but the fact is you cannot do that, there is always going to be some compromise. Games are like power builders, they tend to min max things so they have one thing they do perfect at the expense of everything else. NWN2 will always come up short compared to some other game, but then it is more like a bard build offering a broad range of options.
The biggest issue with other games is you really have to take them AS-IS, and if you can mod them, well you kind of focus on mistakes the devs goofed up on, and do pretty minor additions to the core story. They often market a "toolset" as a selling point, but it's generally not much more than a map editor to allow you to rehash what they already made. The developers fear rule Zero since it means they lose control and can't sell you more content or adventure packs.
Give me the blank canvas which is NWN2. We have stories in the community wanting to be told. We have hundreds of PNP worlds, the harsh world of dungeon eternal driven by clancy's mockery of the players, to recreations of faerun, to zork where you might get eaten by a groo, or just get driven mad by the all powerful cthulu, or get blown up by a laser gun in a sci fi adventure. A regular person without a million dollar budget can actually make a game better than those games they try selling us for $50 a pop, it only takes a year or so of work.
What does any of this have to do with the engine. It has to do with the artist doing the artwork. Sure polygon count and shadows matter, but then i have to dial those things down so they work right in my prefs. I remember my art teacher telling me the tools or subject matter are not even important, it's the execution and ability to use those tools that matter. A great artist is capable of drawing a piece of poop and making it look beautiful. Like wise a well told story makes you completely forget the fact that there is not a game out there which looks as perfect as a movie like Avatar, or even as good as it's own cutscene movies, despite how good they are at this point you can still tell it's just a game when you look at it. To me the best artists go the other way, and make things stylized and unrealistic, or like OOTS.
Graphics is how good the artist is, not the engine. I watched the videos from E3, and found the screen shots by the best modders in nwn2 to actually be better, at least to me. I would much prefer to see content by Hellfire and Johnny Ree and Project Q to the things i see in most games. We had one modder pop in for about a month and do a efreeti and a hill giant which looked like they hopped out of an actual monster manual, that stuff is amazing. Areas, with the right builder those things just look fantastically good.
Sure i'd love it if i could cherry pick the best things from different games, but the fact is you cannot do that, there is always going to be some compromise. Games are like power builders, they tend to min max things so they have one thing they do perfect at the expense of everything else. NWN2 will always come up short compared to some other game, but then it is more like a bard build offering a broad range of options.
The biggest issue with other games is you really have to take them AS-IS, and if you can mod them, well you kind of focus on mistakes the devs goofed up on, and do pretty minor additions to the core story. They often market a "toolset" as a selling point, but it's generally not much more than a map editor to allow you to rehash what they already made. The developers fear rule Zero since it means they lose control and can't sell you more content or adventure packs.
Give me the blank canvas which is NWN2. We have stories in the community wanting to be told. We have hundreds of PNP worlds, the harsh world of dungeon eternal driven by clancy's mockery of the players, to recreations of faerun, to zork where you might get eaten by a groo, or just get driven mad by the all powerful cthulu, or get blown up by a laser gun in a sci fi adventure. A regular person without a million dollar budget can actually make a game better than those games they try selling us for $50 a pop, it only takes a year or so of work.
Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 12 juin 2011 - 04:50 .
#23
Posté 12 juin 2011 - 05:15
Giantevilhead
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Unfortunately, 3.5E D&D just doesn't translate well into real time. Too many of the turn based tactical options are lost.
#24
Posté 12 juin 2011 - 02:50
foil-
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I won't get into the benefits of the modability vs. graphics discussion, but I always argue for graphics being as important as story. I truly feel the environment is a character in the story and the immersion/mood created is important to the journey. Games like Hard Rain show this effectively. Fog, and smoke, light, water and shadow, all produce a mood or feeling. People all point to graphics being the realm of first person shooters, but considering how fast the action passes in those games, I would say its the opposite where graphics should be the realm of crpgs and also one of the most important characters. This is just my own personal weighting of features.
There's some interesting discussion going on about replacing DA2's engine, and one of the engines brought into the discussion is the DICE frostbite 2 engine:
http://www.ign.com/v...3-tank-gameplay
Of course this would be my own personal pick for the question M. Rieder (the op) posed, but since it seems the exclusive realm of EA, its definitely not very likely.
There's some interesting discussion going on about replacing DA2's engine, and one of the engines brought into the discussion is the DICE frostbite 2 engine:
http://www.ign.com/v...3-tank-gameplay
Of course this would be my own personal pick for the question M. Rieder (the op) posed, but since it seems the exclusive realm of EA, its definitely not very likely.
Modifié par foil-, 12 juin 2011 - 02:53 .
#25
Posté 12 juin 2011 - 10:09
UrkOfGreyhawk
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painofdungeoneternal wrote...
It is a bit of a fools argument.
What does any of this have to do with the engine. It has to do with the artist doing the artwork. Sure polygon count and shadows matter, but then i have to dial those things down so they work right in my prefs. I remember my art teacher telling me the tools or subject matter are not even important, it's the execution and ability to use those tools that matter...
Snip
Nothing foolish about it, pain. And I already conceded that the graphics don't impact the complexity of the engine, but they DO impact the communities ability to create content for it. I agree that a great artist can work with whatever tools the medium allows and create a great product, but you're failing to consider some practical issues.
First, This is not a professional engine it's a hobby engine. By using simpler tools you are widening the tent to a larger community.
Second, not every enthusiast is a great artist, and us "just plain folks" are likely to make better products (or in some cases, any products at all) with simpler tools.
Third, even great artists can only do an hour's worth of work in an hour. Simpler graphics allow the better artists in the community to create more content in less time.
Finally, and most importantly, it doesn't matter how great you are if you don't have the tools you need to work with. This is NWN2's biggest failing, IMO. The cost of the software for applying animations to models is prohibitive, making it impossible for enthusiasts to make animated content, especially creatures, no matter how good they are unless they are willing to steal it or take food from their children's mouths to pay for it.
Don't get me wrong. I love the NWN2 engine. For what it does it's perfect (or at least it will be as soon as the community figures out how to implement mounts) but projects that have been done on NWN like D20 modern, Star Wars, and Firefly would have been impossible using Electron not because of the complexity of the engine but because of the complexity of the engine's graphical requirements.
Modifié par UrkOfGreyhawk, 12 juin 2011 - 10:13 .
