40 réponses à ce sujet

[painofdungeoneternal]

The issue is not the graphics level, or how advanced those graphics are. The issue is if the game releases a workflow to take the high resolution 3d models and export them to the games low resolution format, and for what 3d apps you release exporters for. Technically if you have the original model, you can create a creature and export it to multiple games like dragon age, nwn2 and nwn1.

NWN2 used granny to speed up development, since the deadline was very quick, and that was a major roadblock which was just removed recently. Orginally making a creature was impossible until the first ones paved the path, and right now there are folks working on exporter/importers to make getting creatures out of the modeling programs easier than it is for NWN1. I am not sure what is used for doing models in NWN1, but i do hear the folks at RWS commenting how NWN2 actually is less of a pain in the butt to them. It really has to do with what tools you prefer too, if all you ever have done is used old tools those are going to seem easier to you regardless of how easy they are to use -- i still prefer using dos commands to a GUI.

I don't see anyone coming out with a toolset and game which offers what NWN2 or NWN1 does. I think if you prefer less graphics then you should use NWN1, or even baldurs gate. If NWN1 is not capable of doing what you need to do, or if you have a computer purchased in the last 3 years NWN2 is a good option too. Yes the fact that NWN2 has a visual effects editor means i spend hours making the perfect faery fire aura, and if i was doing NWN1 i'd just not do that and just use the stock visuals.

And if you want a hobby engine, well the new NWO foundry looks like it's going to have better graphics AND a simpler way to make maps and modules, which should get a lot more people doing it. Of course what they are going to make is going to be very limited compared to NWN1 or NWN2, but then not every one wants those options.

Regardless the issue is not what you wish we had. The issue is how do you get from what we have, and step by step actually get to what you wish we had.

There are two viable paths i see for that, the first being a heavily modified NWN2 game client and server, the other is a completely new project done in open source abandoning quite a few basics we take for granted. NWN1 is not a good option because its harder to view how it's working inside the engine, and if we do this it's better to take the better eye candy anyway. The other issues have people working on them, such as a way to import and export models and animations easier from 3d programs. You have to think about how horses got added to NWN1 and how they are getting added to NWN2, just think if the devs stopped prior to doing that, would the NWN1 community been able to implement those entirely themselves. NWN1 does have more content, but NWN2 actually has far more ways you can mod it, and given time the goal here is also to make our own toolset which make it far easier for noobish folks to just tell a story. Comparing Tilesets to the 3d sculpted areas, sure NWN1 is easier, but when you factor in plugins like nwn2mapper, and using L3DT to create height maps you import via YATT based on real maps of faerun. The trick is to package up what we've already accomplished and figure out how to make it so it's easier for a person completely new to computers can just add his PNP world so you can play it.

I see NWN1 pretty much at it's peak with what is added by Peachykeen and Project Q. NWN2 is still figuring out how far we can push this engine, and my opinion here is very optimistic. Both are of course going to keep getting new things, but NWN2 has a lot more groundbreaking new features the community is going to add before it's final swan song.

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 13 juin 2011 - 10:30 .

[UrkOfGreyhawk]

Eeek! Are you kidding about "the forge" or are you being genuinely disingenuous? After all the time I've just spent talking about the importance of comunity created custom content you're not seriously pointing me to a kiddie mapper that doesn't even support custom items? Yeah. Good luck running a firefly campaign with THAT.

Good point though, about it maybe bringing some new blood into the community. Maybe after trying a kiddie mapper they'll develop a taste for the real thing.

I also agree that the NWN2/NWN1 is the best we're going to see for a long time coming in terms of user friendly game engines, especially for my purposes (multiplayer DM'd campaigns). I'm not prepared to agree that development of Aurora building has maxed out (every time I've thought that the community has come out of the blocks with something new), but I also think it's important that we keep both communities actively exploring their limits.

I hope you're right about upcoming NWN2 developments. I really do like the Electron engine. Even if I never adopt it myself (strictly for time reasons) I take comfort in knowing that I can create these kind of heightmapped masterpieces and visual effects if I want to.

Modifié par UrkOfGreyhawk, 13 juin 2011 - 09:20 .

[painofdungeoneternal]

Well i see it as a matter of scale, from easiest to most advanced. NWN1 is not the easiest, it's easier than NWN2 though for quite a few things, even though for doing tileset areas it cannot compete with nwn2mapper doing nwn2 interiors. My point was really that it's not the graphics that affect this, it's the execution and focus, and there is no real reason why a more graphically inclined engine cannot cater to less advanced users. The big difference is that NWN1 catered to a more casual person, while the folks at bioware and obsidian are targeting more of a artist / programmer to do content for dragon age and NWN2, and NWO is targeting script kiddies of course.

There is no reason i cannot via a toolset plugin make a "kiddie" mapper mode for NWN2 much like the foundry for doing exteriors, and using BCK and nicethugberts terrain samples. There already is a script plugin for "kids" to do scripting akin to lilac souls, but entirely via dragging visual elements. ( It's being used to teach young kids programming. )

That is the key difference, plugins allow the community to add wizards for just about anything in the toolset, which bring complex things within reach. Unfortunately a lot of these issues have to be added via the community and downloaded by the people using them, which is a barrier to using the game at it's maximum.

Please note, besides my natural bias towards the game i am modding, i intend in no way to put down NWN1 or try to influence people to use NWN2 over NWN1, we are part of the same community. Different tools are capable of doing different things. We need to remember both communities are part of the same larger community, and even those using the forge might tire of it's limitations and give NWN1/NWN2 a shot.

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 13 juin 2011 - 09:40 .

[foil-]

As someone who has never used either toolset, I'm curious where the difficulty lies in the NWN2 toolset for creating exteriors. It just seems like a glorified paint program to me which shouldn't be any more difficult than photoshop to pick up the basics with a small investment of practice.

Anyway, the results of the more organic looking areas in NWN2 toolset definitely cater to my tastes. I was never able to go back to NWN1 after seeing the NWN2 areas. I guess I fall into the eyecandy side of the eyecandy vs. story camp. Not to say there haven't been amazing stories told with the NWN2 toolset.

[kamal_]

@Foil: in nwn1 all the texturing is from the tile itself and elevation changes are also done in tile. Nwn2 requires painting the textures and deforming the terrain to get elevation changes. Painting down textures is artistic, as you said. It takes practice to learn and time to do (time you don't have to spend in nwn1). Nwn1 elevation changes are also a matter of putting down tiles versus "painting the deformations, again natural looking deformation takes time, and additionally often requires tweaking to fix the walkmesh. Nwn2 lighting engine is more advanced, but of course this means you can spend more time getting a look right.
The higher detail level of nwn2 means you can have more placeables, and means more are required to look good versus nwn1 where your imagination fills in. More placeables means more time to place them, and the artistic talent to make things look "natural". Placeables on uneven terrain can also take some work to get to look right (no doors halfway buried) while nwn1 doesn't have that issue nearly as much since terrain is basically flat.

Basically, it's faster to make a good looking nwn1 area

[Hellfire_RWS]

UrkOfGreyhawk wrote...

Finally, and most importantly, it doesn't matter how great you are if you don't have the tools you need to work with. This is NWN2's biggest failing, IMO. The cost of the software for applying animations to models is prohibitive, making it impossible for enthusiasts to make animated content, especially creatures, no matter how good they are unless they are willing to steal it or take food from their children's mouths to pay for it.

This has been going around since NWN2 was released. The tools necessary to make new creatures have been available for Gmax (free) since 7 days after NWN2 was released.  Could a moder add new aniamtions to a creature? No, but then again how many custom animted creatures were there for NWN1?
Most NWN1 creatures leeched the animations from a supermodel (previously animated creature).
this technique was 100% possible in NWN2 since tazpn released his importer exporter.

A lot of people picked out this one argument and cried and complained.. "oooh see there, we cant make stuff in NWN2. the tools arent there!"  Not that many people animate stufff from scratch, and a amature modeler would much rather use existing skeletons and animations (as proven in NWN1) than make an entire creature from scratch.

DLA and CODI made nice complete creatures (aniamtions and all), but the average 1 off modeler rarely went to the effort to make custom aniamtions.

Modifié par Hellfire_RWS, 14 juin 2011 - 02:13 .

[Lugaid of the Red Stripes]

@foil- The main issue is time. NWN tiles, both interior and exterior, came pre-filled with small objects like rocks, chairs, grass, etc. In NWN2, the builder has to place all these things manually, along with drawing the exterior areas by hand. So an area that might take an hour to make in NWN would take three or four hours to make in NWN2. It's not that big of a deal, but it does discourage people with only a few hours to spare at a time from actually finishing something, since they can't make much progress in one sitting. It also makes really massive game worlds prohibitively difficult to make. For example, the NWN prototype of 'Last of the Danaan' was set on a 8x8 grid of exterior areas, that's 64 areas, compared to the eventual 13 exteriors of the NWN2 module. Of course, like you say, I had to abandon the NWN1 project because the terrain just didn't look organic enough to fit with the story.

While we're talking about Aurora vs. Electron toolsets, though, it bears mentioning that the Electron's conversation editor makes things a lot easier by making them more complicated, namely by adding the parameters to the conversation scripts.

[painofdungeoneternal]

kamal_ wrote...

@Foil: in nwn1 all the texturing is from the tile itself and elevation changes are also done in tile. Nwn2 requires painting the textures and deforming the terrain to get elevation changes. Painting down textures is artistic, as you said. It takes practice to learn and time to do (time you don't have to spend in nwn1). Nwn1 elevation changes are also a matter of putting down tiles versus "painting the deformations, again natural looking deformation takes time, and additionally often requires tweaking to fix the walkmesh. Nwn2 lighting engine is more advanced, but of course this means you can spend more time getting a look right.
The higher detail level of nwn2 means you can have more placeables, and means more are required to look good versus nwn1 where your imagination fills in. More placeables means more time to place them, and the artistic talent to make things look "natural". Placeables on uneven terrain can also take some work to get to look right (no doors halfway buried) while nwn1 doesn't have that issue nearly as much since terrain is basically flat.

Basically, it's faster to make a good looking nwn1 area

The funny thing is that NWN2 supports tileset areas just like NWN1 does, the difference is that ALL exteriors use the sculpted areas, while the interiors use Tilesets. There is nothing stopping the community from making a interior using a tileset based on a NWN1 exterior. There even was a PW that was done with nothing but interiors. I've suggested folks actually do this to cater to the NWN1 preference for just using tiles but most of the NWN2 community really sees exteriors done as tiles as a step backwards. ( I was thinking it would enable the NWN1 to NWN2 converter plugin to actually be able to handle the entire module and not just the interiors. )

What this adds is options which don't exist in NWN1. And yes the more options you have, the longer it takes to do something. Doing a spell in NWN1 is mainly doing an icon and a spell script, doing one in NWN2 involves doing a icon, spell script AND a visual effect in the vfx editor. Yes adding things takes longer. By the logic of simpler is better, it again sounds like the NWO foundry is better. I personally like options.

Yes some people don't like a "blank" slate which is a new area, and i guess you need some talent. However it is not that hard to use the tools to make an area how you want if you are not also requiring it look fantastic you can get it looking as good as what you have in NWN1 if you put some time into it. Here are some of the ways people do this to make it easier.

• Prefab Area - They use a prefab area off of the vault, which are shared for this purpose by people that just make areas. Area makers will trade scripting expertise, or just help out people who ask nicely even. Look on the vault, these areas are amazing and just waiting NPC's, monsters and triggers.
• L3DT - This is a map creation tool, designed to make heightmaps. Much more powerful than what NWN2 gives as it's sole purpose is doing this, and YATT will directly import areas done in it.
• Height Map - Many other games use these, so these are a huge resource. I used terrain data to make a height map of the battle field of gettysburg. This requires usage of YATT which is not the most user friendly, but it also the fastest way to make exteriors in NWN2. You can also use programs like Bryce 3d to make an area as it actually is a height map editor. The colors and textures also can be imported but require some effort to learn how to do this.
• Prefab Terrain - Nicethugbert has provided many natural terrains, all you have to do is add placeables. He's done the L3DT work for you and you can just use it.
• PNP drawn Map - I used a visual effect, to make it so i can see a template on a blank area, and this allows me to follow the drawn map as a guide and raise the terrain, paint the roads, etc. I actually do this after i do a heightmap, which lets me see details like roads and structures so i know exactly where to place things according to my PNP map and have it match up with that height map, but i also just do the sculpting with this visual to help me.
• Assembled Blocks - BCK placeables by nytir allow you to build areas like you use Legos. Very easy and you can make some amazing looking structures with this. This tools gives you a lot of what you find in toolsets for games like the witcher.

To me this is not taking something away from what we can do, but we can add more things to what you can do beyond what NWN1 can do, while still doing the things NWN1 can do. The sole issue for a NWN1 person is that there are no tilesets for exteriors, but new options like sculpting, height maps, and the BCK allow you to really do a broad variety of different things which you just can't do with tilesets. If a modeler decided to implement the NWN1 exterior tilesets this entire issue would become academic as there would be nothing lost in moving to NWN2, i just don't think that is going to happen as most who get involved in NWN2 actually prefer what people are doing with the current options.

( also i have to repeat, using the NWN2Mapper plugin makes doing tilesets in NWN2 much much much easier than doing it in NWN1, and we have a lot of amazing tilesets done by RWS )

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 14 juin 2011 - 03:42 .

[UrkOfGreyhawk]

Hellfire_RWS wrote...

DLA and CODI made nice complete creatures (aniamtions and all), but the average 1 off modeler rarely went to the effort to make custom aniamtions.

You're playing down the amount of custom animation that's been done for NWN including custom emotes, combat animations, and ridable mounts (which the community was using for months before the 1.69 patch made the "official" animations available) but even still you kind of make my point for me. It's an environment where it CAN be done, but it doesn't HAVE to be done. This allows more freedom for, and a greater range of, CC creators. Hobby modlers can just sculpt existing models, while those with the skill and desire can create entirely new and unique models complete with custom animations.

I understand that not everyone feels that way, but personally I prefer this environment to NWN2 where it simply cannot be done.

Modifié par UrkOfGreyhawk, 14 juin 2011 - 09:05 .

[kamal_]

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

kamal_ wrote...

@Foil: in nwn1 all the texturing is from the tile itself and elevation changes are also done in tile. Nwn2 requires painting the textures and deforming the terrain to get elevation changes. Painting down textures is artistic, as you said. It takes practice to learn and time to do (time you don't have to spend in nwn1). Nwn1 elevation changes are also a matter of putting down tiles versus "painting the deformations, again natural looking deformation takes time, and additionally often requires tweaking to fix the walkmesh. Nwn2 lighting engine is more advanced, but of course this means you can spend more time getting a look right.
The higher detail level of nwn2 means you can have more placeables, and means more are required to look good versus nwn1 where your imagination fills in. More placeables means more time to place them, and the artistic talent to make things look "natural". Placeables on uneven terrain can also take some work to get to look right (no doors halfway buried) while nwn1 doesn't have that issue nearly as much since terrain is basically flat.

Basically, it's faster to make a good looking nwn1 area

The funny thing is...

foil asked a question. I answered him.

If I'd been working in NWN1, my campaigns would be done in half the time. Building good looking original areas in NWN2 simply takes more time, even if you use things like NTB's areas. And I've made my contribution to speeding up others by releasing around 110 areas (most of which people can find at nwvault.ign.com/View.php). All my Crimmor areas will be released as well, another 40 or 50 or so..

[Hellfire_RWS]

UrkOfGreyhawk wrote...

Hellfire_RWS wrote...

DLA and CODI made nice complete creatures (aniamtions and all), but the average 1 off modeler rarely went to the effort to make custom aniamtions.

You're playing down the amount of custom animation that's been done for NWN including custom emotes, combat animations, and ridable mounts (which the community was using for months before the 1.69 patch made the "official" animations available)

Not at all, I have been a part of the NWN moding community since the day NWN1 was realeased.  those major examples you jsut gave are from DLA and CODI. your average one off monster maker rarely made aniamtions.

My point being, you can leech aniamtions in NWN2 as well, just like you could in NWN1.

[painofdungeoneternal]

UrkOfGreyhawk wrote...

Hellfire_RWS wrote...

DLA and CODI made nice complete creatures (aniamtions and all), but the average 1 off modeler rarely went to the effort to make custom aniamtions.

You're playing down the amount of custom animation that's been done for NWN including custom emotes, combat animations, and ridable mounts (which the community was using for months before the 1.69 patch made the "official" animations available) but even still you kind of make my point for me. It's an environment where it CAN be done, but it doesn't HAVE to be done. This allows more freedom for, and a greater range of, CC creators. Hobby modlers can just sculpt existing models, while those with the skill and desire can create entirely new and unique models complete with custom animations.

I understand that not everyone feels that way, but personally I prefer this environment to NWN2 where it simply cannot be done.

Awful lot of people have opinions on how hard things are without any knowledge of both toolsets. Ignorance tends to exaggerate issues. Saying you cannot do things in NWN2, well they said the same things about NWN1 at one time. You cite mounts, to the person who is right now implementing mounts, using new and complete models with custom animations. If the folks who did NWN1 accepted "can't", all the stuff you prefer would not exist.

( mounts were implemented for an official adventure pack ( wyvern crown )  by DLA , and only later put into 1.69 when everything was released, and there is very little difference between the 2 except we have to implement the mount/dismount system using existing features without new engine functions to make them actually work. )

[UrkOfGreyhawk]

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

Awful lot of people have opinions on how hard things are without any knowledge of both toolsets. Ignorance tends to exaggerate issues. Saying you cannot do things in NWN2, well they said the same things about NWN1 at one time. You cite mounts, to the person who is right now implementing mounts, using new and complete models with custom animations. If the folks who did NWN1 accepted "can't", all the stuff you prefer would not exist.

( mounts were implemented for an official adventure pack ( wyvern crown ) by DLA , and only later put into 1.69 when everything was released, and there is very little difference between the 2 except we have to implement the mount/dismount system using existing features without new engine functions to make them actually work. )

Dude, no need to be a jerk about it. Just because we disagree is no reason to be uncivil. You don't need to resort to name calling or cast aspersions on my character. Sometimes even "ignorant" people like myself have valid opinions.

I already conceded it can be done. My complaint with NWN2's graphics is that the software costs for animating models are prohibitive. I just prefer a community environment where in order to fully participate one needn't be either rich or a criminal.

You're also wrong about the mounts. Mounts were done by the NWN community more than a year before DLA released Wyvern Crown.
http://nwvault.ign.c...s.Detail&id=818
http://nwvault.ign.c....Detail&id=5692

I'm a little surprised the NWN2 community hasn't done the same, but then I guess doing custom animations is a little problematic... and yes. That was intended as a challenge. Without mounts NWN2 isn't really suitable to my style of play.

I can't find a link to the system I used, it was done by a group of Italian modders and wasn't hosted on the vault. But it pre dated wyvern crown by more than a year, too. The implementations were very different. The old community systems used SetAppearance without setting the horse as a tail. Instead each ridable horse model was given it's own phenotype. DLA certainly did it better but give credit where credit is due, they most decidedly did not do it first. BTW many of these old pre-DLA models and animations are still included in the CEP.  Modules I made before the official patch using the old animations still run beatifully.

Modifié par UrkOfGreyhawk, 15 juin 2011 - 08:55 .

[foil-]

Thanks for the clarification all. I always thought it was more difficult than that. But we've become familiar with basic height mapping from games like simcity and simearth for decades now. Painting programs for airbrushing on textures. And this reminds me about a design initiative someone was making a while back of creating paintbrushes that would paint on multiple layers at once to make the process less painful. I think it was dniteowl, but don't know what came of it.

[kamal_]

Foil: that's mutibrush. It's released and does just what it says. Gog.com even sponsored a few prizes for a multibrush preset competition.

[foil-]

kamal_ wrote...

Foil: that's mutibrush. It's released and does just what it says. Gog.com even sponsored a few prizes for a multibrush preset competition.

cool.  I'll have to check that out one day. As soon as the retirement age is reduced 20 or 30 years I should be golden.