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TIM and Cerberus Need To Grow Up!


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#26
Dean_the_Young

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JadeEffect wrote...


With that said, why the hell would TIM spend six billion credits I believe, to bring back ONE person, to try to have later have him/her killed?

The real question is 'why wouldn't you?'

And the answer to that one, actually, is the sunk cost fallacy: the belief that something has more value in the future because of what was done in the past. This is the root of the saying 'in for a penny, in for a pound'... but also, more accurately, 'throwing good money after bad.'

Purely logical decision making only looks at the future impact, not the past investments that can not be regained. They're gone, kaput, non-existent.

TIM was willing to pay 6 billion credits for a symbol for another problem. But the Collectors have been stopped. Nothing TIM does now will reclaim the 6 billion credits, whether he kills Shepard or not.

Why TIM would kill Shepard going forward is the big mystery we won't know until release. Maybe TIM knows something Shepard doesn't... or maybe the symbol TIM wants is a galactic martyr.

#27
Bluefuse

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TIM is not indoctrinated! It would not give justice to his character and BioWare knows that. Read the Evolution comic and you'll know that there's no way he is indoctrinated! Also, TIM does not want Shepard dead because that would be absolutely preposterous to the story. Yes, his motives are unclear, but he's not stupid. Killing Shepard only makes saving the galaxy least likely.

Cerberus is made up of individual cells. The military cell of Cerberus could be indoctrinated, but possibly not the rest of Cerberus. Definitely not TIM.

Modifié par Bluefuse, 10 juin 2011 - 08:01 .


#28
GreenDragon37

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Bluefuse wrote...

TIM is not indoctrinated! It would not give justice to his character and BioWare knows that. Read the Evolution comic and you'll know that there's no way he is indoctrinated! Also, TIM does not want Shepard dead because that would be absolutely preposterous to the story. Yes, his motives are unclear, but he's not stupid. Killing Shepard only makes saving the galaxy least likely.


They only makes me believe that he is indoctrinated. He has only been fighting it over the years, and by hopes of studying the Reaper tech, he can find a way to slow it down, or defeat it completely. Greater reward, high risk. That's how he rolls. Maybe his plan to defeat it didn't work, especially now that the Reapers are here. And maybe he thinks that since Earth has already fallen and most of the Alliance fleet has been wiped out (ugh), Shep has already failed in his mind.

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 10 juin 2011 - 08:05 .


#29
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everyone on this thread should go to this thread.

http://social.biowar...89974/5#7598313

OP listed possible and varying reasons for Cerberus actions.

#30
Bluefuse

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GreenDragon37 wrote...

Bluefuse wrote...

TIM is not indoctrinated! It would not give justice to his character and BioWare knows that. Read the Evolution comic and you'll know that there's no way he is indoctrinated! Also, TIM does not want Shepard dead because that would be absolutely preposterous to the story. Yes, his motives are unclear, but he's not stupid. Killing Shepard only makes saving the galaxy least likely.


They only makes me believe that he is indoctrinated. He has only been fighting it over the years, and by hopes of studying the Reaper tech, he can find a way to slow it down, or defeat it completely. Greater reward, high risk. That's how he rolls. Maybe his plan to defeat it didn't work, especially now that the Reapers are here. And maybe he thinks that since Earth has already fallen and most of the Alliance fleet has been wiped out (ugh), Shep has already failed in his mind.


I doubt BioWare is making Cerberus fight Shepard because of just a simple "misunderstanding."

TIM: "Oh, you're not working for the Reapers? My bad..."

Here's how it is: TIM does not have total control of Cerberus anymore. All the more reason why there is a rumor that he MIGHT be a squadmember at some point.

Modifié par Bluefuse, 10 juin 2011 - 08:10 .


#31
olymind1

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if Miranda is not loyal and she is with you at Collector base, if you want to destroy the base, under TIM's order she kills you... i think maybe TIM was after the Collector base all along. btw he knows he came contact with Reaper tech (comic), maybe he is searching there something to cure himself or immunization against indoctrination, or something else, but he is willing to sacrifice you for the base.

of course only guessing

#32
Bluefuse

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olymind1 wrote...

if Miranda is not loyal and she is with you at Collector base, if you want to destroy the base, under TIM's order she kills you... i think maybe TIM was after the Collector base all along. btw he knows he came contact with Reaper tech (comic), maybe he is searching there something to cure himself or immunization against indoctrination, or something else, but he is willing to sacrifice you for the base.

of course only guessing


Interesting idea.

#33
ME-ParaShep

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Serpenttt92 wrote...

TIM is not indoctrinated.


Then how do you explain TIM initially sending Miranda and some Cerberus units to retrieve Shepard's body after the events of ME 1, spending billions of credits and 2 years to procure Shepard's revival, looking up dossiers of the best people in their professions and giving them to Shepard, building a new Normandy, giving the Normandy and Shepard a new crew, and funding some of Shepard's missions then suddenly TIM is sending Shepard and his crew into dangerous missions with high risks of death like Horizon and fabricating a false distress signal from a "turian scouting ship" so Shepard can be caught in a trap set by the Collectors.

Ok stop and think for a moment.. Why would a Collector ship be stalled out in the Terminus? If TIM made the false message, then how exactly does he know that the Collectors were there? The Turians wouldn't have been there if the message was false from the beginning. The Collectors KNEW that Shepard would be coming. TIM KNEW that Shepard and his crew would be going into a trap. Why would TIM send Shepard over to the Collector ship anyways? There are some reasons.. like seeing what kind of tech they have.. what they could be storing on that ship.. reasons as to why they're capturing humans.. etc, but TIM throws a problem at Shepard and blindly Shepard has to figure out what his objective is, if not the objective is vague and not as important as other possible objectives.

When the suicide mission happens, Shepard is ready to destroy the Collector Base when TIM coincidentally shows up trying to persuade Shepard to preserve the base. As you try to reason with him to destroy the base because it's an abomination, the tech that the base holds is too nasty and amoral. Also implying that TIM might be crazy enough to build his own Reaper (and we know that Reapers can't be controlled and it's insane to even think that you can control one). If you have chosen to destroy the base, TIM gets upset and frustrated.

Now stop and ponder again. Up until now TIM has been very calm, smooth, and slick. Now in a flash he's angry and very disappointed with destroying the base. Now think about it from a renegade perspective. Say that you gave TIM the Collector Base. TIM is very pleased and from the cutscene. You did everything that he wanted without fail. Then why..? Why is he out to hunt you in ME 3 if you did so much for him? The obvious and most likely reason is "He's indoctrinated"

Reasons why he is indoctrinated (without the comic involved): 

1) Shepard is the icon of humanity. Hurting Shepard would only destroy what TIM invested in from the beginning of ME 2 and hurt Cerberus' reputation for stopping the one man who would save the galaxy and humanity.

2) His actions in ME 2 reflected subtle assistance of helping the Collectors (and thus the Reapers) retrieve Shepard's body. That was a goal that they had all along even before the events of ME 2. Cerberus may have been helping humanity in the beginning, but like Dr. Kenson in DLC Arrival, but like the sadly indoctrinated doctor who suddenly turned to aid the Reapers, TIM has become the same as her slowly but surely. His actions reflected his transformed mental state.

3) Regardless of your ending choice in ME 2, he still has something sinister on his mind. You can see it on his face. Whether it be to further aid the Reapers as confirmed already or it be to destroy Shepard and take on the role as the predominant icon of humanity. Doing so only negates their popularity even further. Sadly, because they are hurting Shepard, they're automatically on the side of the Reapers. Shepard is the key to winning the war after all. If Cerberus, with all of it's money and resources, could put up a stand to the Reapers alongside the rest of the galaxy and change it's reputation for the better, but it decided to go the wrong route and deny their humanity.

#34
Xerxes52

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The Reapers reducing TIM's brain to something resembling oatmeal might be a possibility.

#35
GreenDragon37

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Bluefuse wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Bluefuse wrote...

TIM is not indoctrinated! It would not give justice to his character and BioWare knows that. Read the Evolution comic and you'll know that there's no way he is indoctrinated! Also, TIM does not want Shepard dead because that would be absolutely preposterous to the story. Yes, his motives are unclear, but he's not stupid. Killing Shepard only makes saving the galaxy least likely.


They only makes me believe that he is indoctrinated. He has only been fighting it over the years, and by hopes of studying the Reaper tech, he can find a way to slow it down, or defeat it completely. Greater reward, high risk. That's how he rolls. Maybe his plan to defeat it didn't work, especially now that the Reapers are here. And maybe he thinks that since Earth has already fallen and most of the Alliance fleet has been wiped out (ugh), Shep has already failed in his mind.


I doubt BioWare is making Cerberus fight Shepard because of just a simple "misunderstanding."

TIM: "Oh, you're not working for the Reapers? My bad..."

Here's how it is: TIM does not have total control of Cerberus anymore. All the more reason why there is a rumor that he MIGHT be a squadmember at some point.


I never said it was an misunderstanding. TIM just doesn't believe that Shep is the hope that they have been looking for. The only hope is a survivalist plan that involves something along the lines of the Protheans' plan.

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 10 juin 2011 - 08:33 .


#36
Bluefuse

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ME-ParaShep wrote...

Serpenttt92 wrote...

TIM is not indoctrinated.


Then how do you explain TIM initially sending Miranda and some Cerberus units to retrieve Shepard's body after the events of ME 1, spending billions of credits and 2 years to procure Shepard's revival, looking up dossiers of the best people in their professions and giving them to Shepard, building a new Normandy, giving the Normandy and Shepard a new crew, and funding some of Shepard's missions then suddenly TIM is sending Shepard and his crew into dangerous missions with high risks of death like Horizon and fabricating a false distress signal from a "turian scouting ship" so Shepard can be caught in a trap set by the Collectors.

Ok stop and think for a moment.. Why would a Collector ship be stalled out in the Terminus? If TIM made the false message, then how exactly does he know that the Collectors were there? The Turians wouldn't have been there if the message was false from the beginning. The Collectors KNEW that Shepard would be coming. TIM KNEW that Shepard and his crew would be going into a trap. Why would TIM send Shepard over to the Collector ship anyways? There are some reasons.. like seeing what kind of tech they have.. what they could be storing on that ship.. reasons as to why they're capturing humans.. etc, but TIM throws a problem at Shepard and blindly Shepard has to figure out what his objective is, if not the objective is vague and not as important as other possible objectives.

When the suicide mission happens, Shepard is ready to destroy the Collector Base when TIM coincidentally shows up trying to persuade Shepard to preserve the base. As you try to reason with him to destroy the base because it's an abomination, the tech that the base holds is too nasty and amoral. Also implying that TIM might be crazy enough to build his own Reaper (and we know that Reapers can't be controlled and it's insane to even think that you can control one). If you have chosen to destroy the base, TIM gets upset and frustrated.

Now stop and ponder again. Up until now TIM has been very calm, smooth, and slick. Now in a flash he's angry and very disappointed with destroying the base. Now think about it from a renegade perspective. Say that you gave TIM the Collector Base. TIM is very pleased and from the cutscene. You did everything that he wanted without fail. Then why..? Why is he out to hunt you in ME 3 if you did so much for him? The obvious and most likely reason is "He's indoctrinated"

Reasons why he is indoctrinated (without the comic involved): 

1) Shepard is the icon of humanity. Hurting Shepard would only destroy what TIM invested in from the beginning of ME 2 and hurt Cerberus' reputation for stopping the one man who would save the galaxy and humanity.

2) His actions in ME 2 reflected subtle assistance of helping the Collectors (and thus the Reapers) retrieve Shepard's body. That was a goal that they had all along even before the events of ME 2. Cerberus may have been helping humanity in the beginning, but like Dr. Kenson in DLC Arrival, but like the sadly indoctrinated doctor who suddenly turned to aid the Reapers, TIM has become the same as her slowly but surely. His actions reflected his transformed mental state.

3) Regardless of your ending choice in ME 2, he still has something sinister on his mind. You can see it on his face. Whether it be to further aid the Reapers as confirmed already or it be to destroy Shepard and take on the role as the predominant icon of humanity. Doing so only negates their popularity even further. Sadly, because they are hurting Shepard, they're automatically on the side of the Reapers. Shepard is the key to winning the war after all. If Cerberus, with all of it's money and resources, could put up a stand to the Reapers alongside the rest of the galaxy and change it's reputation for the better, but it decided to go the wrong route and deny their humanity.






I applaud you, good sir! You truly backed up this claim very well. I admit that your reasoning in this discussion seems more plausible to be correct than mine. I am now convinced that this may be so.

#37
Dean_the_Young

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Bluefuse wrote...

I applaud you, good sir! You truly backed up this claim very well. I admit that your reasoning in this discussion seems more plausible to be correct than mine. I am now convinced that this may be so.

Awesome.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 10 juin 2011 - 08:42 .


#38
Perfecti0nist

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Maybe he's not in charge of Cerberus going after Shepard. Maybe there's been a coup d'etat.

#39
GreenDragon37

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ME-ParaShep wrote...

Serpenttt92 wrote...

TIM is not indoctrinated.


Then how do you explain TIM initially sending Miranda and some Cerberus units to retrieve Shepard's body after the events of ME 1, spending billions of credits and 2 years to procure Shepard's revival, looking up dossiers of the best people in their professions and giving them to Shepard, building a new Normandy, giving the Normandy and Shepard a new crew, and funding some of Shepard's missions then suddenly TIM is sending Shepard and his crew into dangerous missions with high risks of death like Horizon and fabricating a false distress signal from a "turian scouting ship" so Shepard can be caught in a trap set by the Collectors.

Ok stop and think for a moment.. Why would a Collector ship be stalled out in the Terminus? If TIM made the false message, then how exactly does he know that the Collectors were there? The Turians wouldn't have been there if the message was false from the beginning. The Collectors KNEW that Shepard would be coming. TIM KNEW that Shepard and his crew would be going into a trap. Why would TIM send Shepard over to the Collector ship anyways? There are some reasons.. like seeing what kind of tech they have.. what they could be storing on that ship.. reasons as to why they're capturing humans.. etc, but TIM throws a problem at Shepard and blindly Shepard has to figure out what his objective is, if not the objective is vague and not as important as other possible objectives.

When the suicide mission happens, Shepard is ready to destroy the Collector Base when TIM coincidentally shows up trying to persuade Shepard to preserve the base. As you try to reason with him to destroy the base because it's an abomination, the tech that the base holds is too nasty and amoral. Also implying that TIM might be crazy enough to build his own Reaper (and we know that Reapers can't be controlled and it's insane to even think that you can control one). If you have chosen to destroy the base, TIM gets upset and frustrated.

Now stop and ponder again. Up until now TIM has been very calm, smooth, and slick. Now in a flash he's angry and very disappointed with destroying the base. Now think about it from a renegade perspective. Say that you gave TIM the Collector Base. TIM is very pleased and from the cutscene. You did everything that he wanted without fail. Then why..? Why is he out to hunt you in ME 3 if you did so much for him? The obvious and most likely reason is "He's indoctrinated"

Reasons why he is indoctrinated (without the comic involved): 

1) Shepard is the icon of humanity. Hurting Shepard would only destroy what TIM invested in from the beginning of ME 2 and hurt Cerberus' reputation for stopping the one man who would save the galaxy and humanity.

2) His actions in ME 2 reflected subtle assistance of helping the Collectors (and thus the Reapers) retrieve Shepard's body. That was a goal that they had all along even before the events of ME 2. Cerberus may have been helping humanity in the beginning, but like Dr. Kenson in DLC Arrival, but like the sadly indoctrinated doctor who suddenly turned to aid the Reapers, TIM has become the same as her slowly but surely. His actions reflected his transformed mental state.

3) Regardless of your ending choice in ME 2, he still has something sinister on his mind. You can see it on his face. Whether it be to further aid the Reapers as confirmed already or it be to destroy Shepard and take on the role as the predominant icon of humanity. Doing so only negates their popularity even further. Sadly, because they are hurting Shepard, they're automatically on the side of the Reapers. Shepard is the key to winning the war after all. If Cerberus, with all of it's money and resources, could put up a stand to the Reapers alongside the rest of the galaxy and change it's reputation for the better, but it decided to go the wrong route and deny their humanity.






*applauds*

Sounds good. I don't think indoctrination is a bad plot device. It would be interesting to have TIM encounter Shep at times. Maybe he'll explain his motivations, trying to say that working with the Reapers is the only way, especially with the Fall of Earth. He'll make you second guess yourself, make you question why not lay down your arms and join him. Maybe he can be just as convincing as Saren. However, you know that he is indoctrinated, and love him or hate him, he has to be stopped.

#40
Kabanya101

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Did no one get the memo, TIM is after Shep because he wants his personal **** back, Miranda.

#41
Rawke

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Kabanya101 wrote...

Did no one get the memo, TIM is after Shep because he wants his personal **** back, Miranda.


I find that highly offenisve...:?

#42
wr3xl3ss

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I find it hard to believe that TIM is indoctrinated, simply because it would be predictable as hell. IMO, what Cerberus stands for, which is the "preservation and advancement of the human race" may mean MANY, MANY things to different individuals.

In Evolution, it is suggested a direct convo between the Reapers ( possibly Harbinger ) and the TIM. It's not like it would be unusual for organics to negotiate with them... After all, Harbinger negotiated the return of Shepard's body with the Shadow Broker through the Collector General.

Modifié par wr3xl3ss, 10 juin 2011 - 08:59 .


#43
GreenDragon37

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wr3xl3ss wrote...

I find it hard to believe that TIM is indoctrinated, simply because it would be predictable as hell. IMO, what Cerberus stands for, which is the "preservation and advancement of the human race" may mean MANY, MANY things to different individuals.

In Evolution, it is suggested a direct convo between the Reapers ( possibly Harbinger ) and the TIM. It's not like it would be unusual for organics to negotiate with them... After all, Harbinger negotiated the return of Shepard's body with the Shadow Broker through the Collector General.


You act like TIM being indoctrinated is a choice.

The Reapers don't ask you to be indoctrinated, they force it on you. Saren had other plans before he was indoctrinated, but whatever they were, they were long gone by that point.

That is the point of Indoctrination: it changes you. Makes you a servant of the Reapers. And TIM has Reaper tech in him, maybe it was only a matter of time.

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 10 juin 2011 - 09:02 .


#44
Eshaye

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Bluefuse wrote...

TIM is not indoctrinated! It would not give justice to his character and BioWare knows that. Read the Evolution comic and you'll know that there's no way he is indoctrinated! Also, TIM does not want Shepard dead because that would be absolutely preposterous to the story. Yes, his motives are unclear, but he's not stupid. Killing Shepard only makes saving the galaxy least likely.

Cerberus is made up of individual cells. The military cell of Cerberus could be indoctrinated, but possibly not the rest of Cerberus. Definitely not TIM.


Did we read the same comic? :? If anything it points that he most definately is. Add the novels to the mix and the description of Paul Grayson's journey to indoctrination and it's highly unlikely he isn't.. 

#45
Dave of Canada

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Trying to say that TIM is indoctrinated during ME2 doesn't make sense when you take everything into consideration including the novels.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 10 juin 2011 - 09:06 .


#46
GreenDragon37

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Dave of Canada wrote...

Trying to say that TIM is indoctrinated during ME2 doesn't make sense when you take everything into consideration including how he spent millions of credits to revive Shepard and then try to kill him again or the novels.


Someone made a very good post in this thread explaining how it's possible.

#47
wr3xl3ss

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GreenDragon37 wrote...

You act like TIM being indoctrinated is a choice.

The Reapers don't ask you to be indoctrinated, they force it on you. Saren had other plans before he was indoctrinated, but whatever they were, they were long gone by that point.

That is the point of Indoctrination: it changes you. Makes you a servant of the Reapers. And TIM has Reaper tech in him, maybe it was only a matter of time.

 
Did you even read what I wrote? Guess not.

I'm not discussing the merits of indoctrination or how it works, but rather debating how it would be pointless, boring and predictable to have it used yet again as a major plot device to define one of the main baddies. I'm fairly sure it will be used at some point... Hell, I actually believe one of the squad mates will succumb to it, but IMO, TIM is there.

Again, in case you missed it, "the advancement and preservation of Humanity" may mean MANY, MANY things to different people. 

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Trying to say that TIM is indoctrinated during ME2 doesn't make sense when you take everything into consideration including how he spent millions of credits to revive Shepard and then try to kill him again or the novels.


Someone made a very good post in this thread explaining how it's possible.


No they didn't; Again, very predictable really, especially for Bioware.

Modifié par wr3xl3ss, 10 juin 2011 - 09:08 .


#48
Eshaye

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GreenDragon37 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Trying to say that TIM is indoctrinated during ME2 doesn't make sense when you take everything into consideration including how he spent millions of credits to revive Shepard and then try to kill him again or the novels.


Someone made a very good post in this thread explaining how it's possible.


Yes they did and bookmarking for posterity and until anyone wants to ask: why bring Shepard back? ----->

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/323/index/7596802/2#7598547

#49
Rawke

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GreenDragon37 wrote...

wr3xl3ss wrote...

I find it hard to believe that TIM is indoctrinated, simply because it would be predictable as hell. IMO, what Cerberus stands for, which is the "preservation and advancement of the human race" may mean MANY, MANY things to different individuals.

In Evolution, it is suggested a direct convo between the Reapers ( possibly Harbinger ) and the TIM. It's not like it would be unusual for organics to negotiate with them... After all, Harbinger negotiated the return of Shepard's body with the Shadow Broker through the Collector General.


You act like TIM being indoctrinated is a choice.

The Reapers don't ask you to be indoctrinated, they force it on you. Saren had other plans before he was indoctrinated, but whatever they were, they were long gone by that point.

That is the point of Indoctrination: it changes you. Makes you a Servant of the Reapers.


Also, TIM has a big enough ego to be blind to the fact that he is manipulated until it's too late. With him under control, Cerberus is a piece of cake. IF TIM is indoctrinated, he was probably chosen because he's an easy target. Or the Reapers just thought he was a pain in the ass for bringing Shepard back to life and decided to replace the Collectors with Cerberus. Either way, the Reapers have another army of mindless morons who would've jumped off a cliff if TIm tolde them to even BEFORE being indoctrinated.

Maybe it's just how the Reapers operate. Maybe they had some kind of organic helper for every cycle, maybe to infiltrate the defenders, maybe to achieve more knowledge about the races they are currently annihilating...who knows. They tried to get Saren and failed. Shepard's a no-go (I personally think the Collectors might even have brought Shepard back themselves as an indoctrinated agent of some sorts) so why not TIM. He's got the necessary influence and network to be a valuable asset.

Modifié par Rawke, 10 juin 2011 - 09:10 .


#50
GreenDragon37

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wr3xl3ss wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

You act like TIM being indoctrinated is a choice.

The Reapers don't ask you to be indoctrinated, they force it on you. Saren had other plans before he was indoctrinated, but whatever they were, they were long gone by that point.

That is the point of Indoctrination: it changes you. Makes you a servant of the Reapers. And TIM has Reaper tech in him, maybe it was only a matter of time.

 
Did you even read what I wrote? Guess not.

I'm not discussing the merits of indoctrination or how it works, but rather debating how it would be pointless, boring and predictable to have it used yet again as a major plot device to define one of the main baddies. I'm fairly sure it will be used at some point... Hell, I actually believe one of the squad mates will succumb to it, but IMO, TIM is there.

Again, in case you missed it, "the advancement and preservation of Humanity" may mean MANY, MANY things to different people. 

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Trying to say that TIM is indoctrinated during ME2 doesn't make sense when you take everything into consideration including how he spent millions of credits to revive Shepard and then try to kill him again or the novels.


Someone made a very good post in this thread explaining how it's possible.


No they didn't; Again, very predictable really, especially for Bioware.


Something tells me you don't like it because you think TIM is infalliabe, and should be safe from all harm.

And what does Cerberus's motto have to do with anything in this discussion? It all gets thrown out the window when Indoctrination is involved. If TIM is indoctrinated, good. It's just what I would expect from the Reapers:

Use the galaxy's top leaders against eachother. Sell out their own kind. That's what happened to the Protheans, and I'm sure as hell it can happen to TIM, especially since he has Reaper tech in him.