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[Golden Owl]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Who says?...Not biting anyway, so irrelevant.

Less explosive, I mean something not involving present day issues or politics.

That is less explosive absolutely no references to modern day issues or politics.

I will put it this way...I don't share the Batarian hate common on this thread, so is a tough question for me.

Me neither. I tried to alert the batarian colony in Arrival and really hope that Bioware make a Batarian squadmember (assuming they aren't the new client race of the Reapers. That would suck) as it would add a considerable amount of drama. 

Think Batarian plague victim only writ large. A confrontational relationship from the beginning with the opportunity for a major change or a major betrayal depending on player actions. It would be pretty awesome.

Yep, I tried to warn them also, though as my Shep was in the process, I was thinking myself, it's too late, they won't be able to do a thing.

I would feel BW is being cheap if they make the Batarians the new client race, but I somehow don't think they will...BW has done a wonderful job at writing in some of those grey shades...Legion's dialog is a brilliant example of that....I have noted on another thread, taking the sick Batarian and the Batarians holding Daniel into account, that the general Batarian populace is dealinbg with as much propaganda as the human populace in regards to one another....just think about the strong surprise they felt at Sheps help and keeping his word, they did not expect that from a human....the propaganda is going both ways.

I am personally not too keen on having a Batarian squaddie, though purely for the fact that I don't want to see my favorite squaddies loose potential long term postions as squaddies.

[Markinator_123]

Rheia wrote...

Leaning towards paragon side of things is a lot more palatable in ME1. Not so much in ME2. Imho, of course. I've had a 'pure' paragon run of ME1, but I never made it through ME2 without renegade choices (and I mean, consiously renegade, where you go for a red trigger or a red line instead of a blue, or even neutral instead of blue).

That said, consistant renegade is also daunting, even in ME2. My favorite runs are all 'middle ground' in that sometimes paragon choices are picked, sometimes renegade, and occasionally the non-point yeilding dialog choices. I even had one that ended ME2 with almost equal amount in red/blue bar.

So, original question... nope. Wouldn't want a pure paragon Shep. At all .

I don't see how anyone could manage a pure paragon Shepard in ME2. I don't care what anyone says Mass Effect's setting is a crapsack galaxy. Sometimes this galaxy makes me wonder what the hell Shepard was fighting for in Mass Effect 1.

Modifié par Markinator_123, 12 juin 2011 - 02:00 .

[Golden Owl]

Markinator_123 wrote...

Rheia wrote...

Leaning towards paragon side of things is a lot more palatable in ME1. Not so much in ME2. Imho, of course. I've had a 'pure' paragon run of ME1, but I never made it through ME2 without renegade choices (and I mean, consiously renegade, where you go for a red trigger or a red line instead of a blue, or even neutral instead of blue).

That said, consistant renegade is also daunting, even in ME2. My favorite runs are all 'middle ground' in that sometimes paragon choices are picked, sometimes renegade, and occasionally the non-point yeilding dialog choices. I even had one that ended ME2 with almost equal amount in red/blue bar.

So, original question... nope. Wouldn't want a pure paragon Shep. At all .

I don't see how anyone could manage a pure paragon Shepard in ME2. I don't care what anyone says Mass Effect's setting is a crapsack galaxy. Sometimes this galaxy makes me wonder what the hell Shepard was fighting for in Mass Effect 1.

Thats the interesting thing about perception.... wouldn't the world be boring if we all shared the same perception.

[Markinator_123]

Overall though, considering the position that Shepard has I wouldn't respect a pure paragon or a pure renegade Shepard. The reason I wouldn't respect a pure paragon because I believe that someone in Shepard's position should be ruthless towards his/her enemies. Shepard is the judge, jury, and executioner. Continously letting criminals go just because they are in a weakened state or unarmed is ridiculous at times (like Clint Eastwood said, "they should arm themselves" if they are going to be taking apart of some of the activities they are into). The reason I wouldn't respect a pure renegade is because Shepard should not treat his/her surbordinates and everyone helping him/her like utter crap.

Modifié par Markinator_123, 12 juin 2011 - 05:25 .

[Moiaussi]

Markinator_123 wrote...

Overall though, considering the position that Shepard has I wouldn't respect a pure paragon or a pure renegade Shepard. The reason I wouldn't respect a pure paragon because I believe that someone in Shepard's position should be ruthless towards his/her enemies. Shepard is the judge, jury, and executioner. Continously letting criminals go just because they are in a weakened state or unarmed is ridiculous at times (like Clint Eastwood said, "they should arm themselves" if they are going to be taking apart of some of the activities they are into). The reason I wouldn't respect a pure renegade is because Shepard should not treat his/her surbordinates and everyone helping him/her like utter crap.

The only criminal that gets let go because they are unarmed is lil eclipse girl, and that is a judgement call as to whether she is just a soldier following reasonable orders in the context of a war or whether she is an actual criminal. The inability to take her into custody and the fact she is cowering rather than fighting play parts in the decision too.

Other than that the decision is usually either the criminal's freedom vs the lives of the hostages or the criminal's life vs trust in the judicial system.

For the record, I pretty much always end up shooting lil eclipse girl (and did on my first playthrough before knowing she was the murderer, so no metagaming involved). Balak I let go in my first playthrough because I didn't expect him to magically teleport off the station. The Normandy wasn't reporting any ships in the area, and his simply vanishing like that made no sense at all. Logicly, I should have been able to save the hostages and still have at least some chance of capturing him later.

And I usually save the Council. Sometimes for tactical reasons, sometimes strategic, sometimes both. As I have said in other threads, it bothers me that there is no renegade save the DA option.

[Markinator_123]

Moiaussi wrote...

Markinator_123 wrote...

Overall though, considering the position that Shepard has I wouldn't respect a pure paragon or a pure renegade Shepard. The reason I wouldn't respect a pure paragon because I believe that someone in Shepard's position should be ruthless towards his/her enemies. Shepard is the judge, jury, and executioner. Continously letting criminals go just because they are in a weakened state or unarmed is ridiculous at times (like Clint Eastwood said, "they should arm themselves" if they are going to be taking apart of some of the activities they are into). The reason I wouldn't respect a pure renegade is because Shepard should not treat his/her surbordinates and everyone helping him/her like utter crap.

The only criminal that gets let go because they are unarmed is lil eclipse girl, and that is a judgement call as to whether she is just a soldier following reasonable orders in the context of a war or whether she is an actual criminal. The inability to take her into custody and the fact she is cowering rather than fighting play parts in the decision too.

Other than that the decision is usually either the criminal's freedom vs the lives of the hostages or the criminal's life vs trust in the judicial system.

For the record, I pretty much always end up shooting lil eclipse girl (and did on my first playthrough before knowing she was the murderer, so no metagaming involved). Balak I let go in my first playthrough because I didn't expect him to magically teleport off the station. The Normandy wasn't reporting any ships in the area, and his simply vanishing like that made no sense at all. Logicly, I should have been able to save the hostages and still have at least some chance of capturing him later.

And I usually save the Council. Sometimes for tactical reasons, sometimes strategic, sometimes both. As I have said in other threads, it bothers me that there is no renegade save the DA option.

You let Fist go, you let Rana (Virmire doctor) go, you let Joram talid go, you let that eclipse merc on the Dantius tower go, you let Maelon go, you let Sidonis... Need I continue? There are more I could name. By the way, I killed every single individual I just named (well Mordin killed Maelon and Garrus killed Sidonis but you get the point).

Modifié par Markinator_123, 12 juin 2011 - 06:00 .

[Moiaussi]

Markinator_123 wrote...

You let Fist go, you let Rana (Virmire doctor) go, you let Joram talid go, you let that eclipse merc on the Dantius tower go, you let Maelon go, you let Sidonis... Need I continue? There are more I could name. By the way, I killed every single individual I just named (well Mordin killed Maelon and Garrus killed Sidonis but you get the point).

If let go, Fist ends up being driven out of business by the information you give to Emily Wong.
Rana isn't actually a criminal. She signed up with Saren on good pretenses, then coerced into continuing (by force and likely partially by indoctrination). In the second encounter, her research isn't even illegal.

Joram is a politician and exercising free speach. You might not like his message, but you are actually protecting him from a crime (assassination).

The Dantius situation is an in family power struggle between two sisters. There is a non-kidnapping that turns out to be blackmail, and the person who hired you treats it all as a game. What actual crime was involved?

If you keep the genophage research, aren't you nearly as guilty as Maelon?

Sidonis had under duress when he betrayed Garrus' team. Garrus at the time was acting as a vigilante on Omega and outside the law himself. If let go it isn't simply because he is unarmed.

[Ultai]

strive wrote...

I like flawed characters. And I wouldn't make it through Mordin's loyalty mission watching a "pure paragon" without hating that Shepard.

This.  A paragon comes off looking like a self righteous ass to Mordin's predicament as a whole.

Pure paragon, and pure renegade for that matter I have a hard time taking seriously.  You can get full renegade without taking the "being a jerk just for the hell of it" options, which lets you get those paragon points.  Paragon however seems too close to Mary Sue status, especially with the occasional negative consequence seemingly nowhere in sight.
 

[ArawnNox]

My first playthroughs of both ME1 and 2 were pretty close to pure Paragon (and even then, it was iffy in ME2 a lot).
I don't remember all of my choices but I tried to stick by my fem!Shep's ideals: Inter-species cooperation, protecting innocents, giving mercy to those who ask, etc. There were some exceptions to those rules (I remember being pretty rough with Harken). And it was really hard to resist those Renegade interrupts. I mean, you've got a big bad giving his insane speech with an explosive barrel underneath him. Come ON, who wouldn't take that opportunity?

Now, onto the main topic: Pure Paragon as a media protagonist. Pure anything would be boring. Why? Because it would deprive Shepard of a character arc. They wouldn't change. Their values and way of thinking would remain static. The character wouldn't be engaging.

Now that I'm playing the games again I'm trying to take a bit more of an approach to the gameplay with an eye to the long term growth of my Shepard(s). Mostly this is being done with some small fanfic blurbs to help flesh out why Shep makes the choices she makes and how events change her. That is more interesting than a pure paragon or pure renegade protagonist, in my opinion.

[Markinator_123]

Moiaussi wrote...

Markinator_123 wrote...

You let Fist go, you let Rana (Virmire doctor) go, you let Joram talid go, you let that eclipse merc on the Dantius tower go, you let Maelon go, you let Sidonis... Need I continue? There are more I could name. By the way, I killed every single individual I just named (well Mordin killed Maelon and Garrus killed Sidonis but you get the point).

If let go, Fist ends up being driven out of business by the information you give to Emily Wong.
Rana isn't actually a criminal. She signed up with Saren on good pretenses, then coerced into continuing (by force and likely partially by indoctrination). In the second encounter, her research isn't even illegal.

Joram is a politician and exercising free speach. You might not like his message, but you are actually protecting him from a crime (assassination).

The Dantius situation is an in family power struggle between two sisters. There is a non-kidnapping that turns out to be blackmail, and the person who hired you treats it all as a game. What actual crime was involved?

If you keep the genophage research, aren't you nearly as guilty as Maelon?

Sidonis had under duress when he betrayed Garrus' team. Garrus at the time was acting as a vigilante on Omega and outside the law himself. If let go it isn't simply because he is unarmed.

-Fist deserved to get what was coming to him. He was more than just a small time criminal.
-Joram Talid is more than just a politician who was exercising free speech. He was a thug who shakes down businesses and threatens humans. I killed that demagogue because his ability to do harm goes even higher if he gets into office and failed assassination attempts do wonders for a person's political campaign.
-The Merc on the Dantius Tower was an Eclipse merc.
-Maelon committed brutal experiments on sometimes unwilling test subjects. Keeping the data or not is irrevelant because that data is just that. Data! You can't worry about the dead at that point only about the living.
-Sidonis betrayed his entire squad to save his own skin and didn't have the courage to take responsibility for his actions.

Having said all of this however, taking the paragon route on these criminals is defendable but it would just annoy me. Like I said, I like anti-heroes in fiction.

[jbblue05]

Moiaussi wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Why is Pure Paragon Shepard a marine in the first place?

Because some marines manage to check their targets before pulling the trigger while still accomplishing their missions?

Pure Paragon Shepard is more likely to be a diplomat than a marine that is trained to kill a man in hundreds of ways 

See this is the problem with the paragon/renegade discussions. Paragons are not pacifists. "The right thing" includes killing in self defence or in the defence of others. They can also be diplomats... if you can talk a cornerned enemy into surrendering, great, but if they won't surrender that doesn't mean you simply shrug your shoulders and stand there while they shoot at you.

Pure Paragons are pacififists. You've got to have a little Renegade in you to end someone's life and to spend years studying the art of killing to perfection

[Moiaussi]

Markinator_123 wrote...

-Fist deserved to get what was coming to him. He was more than just a small time criminal.
-Joram Talid is more than just a politician who was exercising free speech. He was a thug who shakes down businesses and threatens humans. I killed that demagogue because his ability to do harm goes even higher if he gets into office and failed assassination attempts do wonders for a person's political campaign.
-The Merc on the Dantius Tower was an Eclipse merc.
-Maelon committed brutal experiments on sometimes unwilling test subjects. Keeping the data or not is irrevelant because that data is just that. Data! You can't worry about the dead at that point only about the living.
-Sidonis betrayed his entire squad to save his own skin and didn't have the courage to take responsibility for his actions.

Having said all of this however, taking the paragon route on these criminals is defendable but it would just annoy me. Like I said, I like anti-heroes in fiction.

If Fist isn't just a small time hood, why is the best he can do when let go a wearhouse job?
If you kill every politician whose politics you disagree with, congrats, you really have gone rogue.
Sorry, I was confusing it with a different incident... you mean lil eclipse girl?
The data isn't just 'that data' It wouldn't exist if it wasn't for that torture, and if you aren't worried about the dead then you shouldn't be worried about the torture victims either.
Yes sidonis betrayed his squad to save his own skin. How is that different from Shepard betraying the Council to save his skin and everyone else's? Does your Shep surrender to Tela Vasir just to save her hostage? Or being willing to sacrifice any given person or group? He also feels considerable remorse over his actions.

[Moiaussi]

jbblue05 wrote...

Pure Paragons are pacififists. You've got to have a little Renegade in you to end someone's life and to spend years studying the art of killing to perfection

Making up your own definitions doesn't make them meaningful.

[jbblue05]

Moiaussi wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Pure Paragons are pacififists. You've got to have a little Renegade in you to end someone's life and to spend years studying the art of killing to perfection

Making up your own definitions doesn't make them meaningful.

Exactly!
This makes your views on Paragons irrelevant now.

[NoSoyBueno]

Moiaussi wrote...
If you kill every politician whose politics you disagree with, congrats, you really have gone rogue.

It's almost like you didn't even bother reading what he said...

-NSB

[Moiaussi]

jbblue05 wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Pure Paragons are pacififists. You've got to have a little Renegade in you to end someone's life and to spend years studying the art of killing to perfection

Making up your own definitions doesn't make them meaningful.

Exactly!
This makes your views on Paragons irrelevant now.

The War Hero background is paragon in all three incarnations and Shepard didn't talk his way to victory on elysium. Now, have you got something to actually back up your definition other than simply declaring yourself right?

[Markinator_123]

Moiaussi wrote...


If Fist isn't just a small time hood, why is the best he can do when let go a wearhouse job?
If you kill every politician whose politics you disagree with, congrats, you really have gone rogue.
Sorry, I was confusing it with a different incident... you mean lil eclipse girl?
The data isn't just 'that data' It wouldn't exist if it wasn't for that torture, and if you aren't worried about the dead then you shouldn't be worried about the torture victims either.
Yes sidonis betrayed his squad to save his own skin. How is that different from Shepard betraying the Council to save his skin and everyone else's? Does your Shep surrender to Tela Vasir just to save her hostage? Or being willing to sacrifice any given person or group? He also feels considerable remorse over his actions.

-Fist: I just don't take crime lords lightly
-Joram Talid: Don't you know how dangerous a demagogue is (seriously Adolf Hitler was one)? Him being a racist politician is bad enough but he is a thug too who is accompanied by blood pack mercenaries. Once he gets into office, his ability to do harm to humans increases which makes him a serious threat to the humans who live on the citadel.
-Maelon: I understand your point of view I still find him too much of a loose end though.
-Sidonis: Sidonis's betrayal is purely selfish that came at the expense of his squad,  the idealistic cause of the squad, and Garrus. Mercy in this cause would be a luxury. Shepard never betrayed the council because while he/she may answer to the council his/her responsibility is to the rest of the galaxy. Shepard is the most selfless person in the universe regardless of paragon or renegade status.

[Markinator_123]

NoSoyBueno wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...
If you kill every politician whose politics you disagree with, congrats, you really have gone rogue.

It's almost like you didn't even bother reading what he said...

-NSB

Thank you!

[Moiaussi]

NoSoyBueno wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...
If you kill every politician whose politics you disagree with, congrats, you really have gone rogue.

It's almost like you didn't even bother reading what he said...

-NSB

Thane's son is hired by a human criminal to kill Joram. It may well be that the businesses that were being shaken down were actually fronts for Ellas' operations. We know that Ellas bribes Bailey so Joram's accusations against C-Sec might be completely valid.

Reading something does not make it valid, nor does it require agreement with what is read.

[Markinator_123]

Moiaussi wrote...

NoSoyBueno wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...
If you kill every politician whose politics you disagree with, congrats, you really have gone rogue.

It's almost like you didn't even bother reading what he said...

-NSB

Thane's son is hired by a human criminal to kill Joram. It may well be that the businesses that were being shaken down were actually fronts for Ellas' operations. We know that Ellas bribes Bailey so Joram's accusations against C-Sec might be completely valid.

Reading something does not make it valid, nor does it require agreement with what is read.

I wish I could have killed both Kelham and Talid but instead I have to settle for one.

[Moiaussi]

Markinator_123 wrote...

-Fist: I just don't take crime lords lightly
-Joram Talid: Don't you know how dangerous a demagogue is (seriously Adolf Hitler was one)? Him being a racist politician is bad enough but he is a thug too who is accompanied by blood pack mercenaries. Once he gets into office, his ability to do harm to humans increases which makes him a serious threat to the humans who live on the citadel.
-Maelon: I understand your point of view I still find him too much of a loose end though.
-Sidonis: Sidonis's betrayal is purely selfish that came at the expense of his squad,  the idealistic cause of the squad, and Garrus. Mercy in this cause would be a luxury. Shepard never betrayed the council because while he/she may answer to the council his/her responsibility is to the rest of the galaxy. Shepard is the most selfless person in the universe regardless of paragon or renegade status.

As crime lords go, Fist is pretty minor.

Joram. You are supporting a crime lord in taking him down. It is a crime lord who hired Thane's son, which brings into question exactly what those businesses were up to. Hiring mercenary bodyguards is hardly a sign of anything. We know the mercs are also pirates elsewhere, but they do have legitimate operations in Council space. As for the harm to humans, C-sec really are taking bribes, so his accusations have a basis in fact. If Human crime lords are important to protect, why do you have issues with Fist living?

Survival is almost always a selfish motive, but it is one of the our strongest instincts. And Sidonis didn't put himself in any position where that could be repeated. In fact he left the area entirely and was very remorseful. What good would killing him now do? It wouldn't bring anyone back. It wouldn't serve as a message to anyone because noone really knows other than Garrus and Shepard. You didn't answer my question regarding the Tela Vasir situation btw.

ETA:

I wish I could have killed both Kelham and Talid but instead I have to settle for one.

So instead of killing the actual criminal, you kill the frustrated politician who is doing what he can against human corruption. Is he overreacting? Definately, but the basis for his issues is legitimate. There is crime covered up by C-Sec corruption. Clean up the crime and the politician might change his mind. Kill the politician though and the corruption remains.

Modifié par Moiaussi, 12 juin 2011 - 09:27 .

[ReallyRue]

I did it once, for variety. That Shepard annoys me. I prefer my mostly-renegade Shep.

[Wulfram]

I'd probably like pure paragon shepard - he's a nice guy, after all - he probably wouldn't be the most interesting character.

I'd have a big problem with him covering up war crimes, though.