17 réponses à ce sujet

[Shotokanguy]

I don't think we saw health bars all the time, but when we did it was just health and shields. 

Hopefully this means the concept of "armor" for another health bar has been removed from ME3. 

[clerkenwell]

Doubtful. The demos were clearly being played at Normal difficulty or below where defensive layers are scarce, and the only enemy types we saw were some Cerberus mooks and the Cannibals. I imagine the Cerberus enemies will follow the Blue Suns pattern set by ME2 (mostly shields, rarely armor, never barriers). Cannibals will probably have armor on higher difficulties.

[Dave666]

Too early to tell really. All we saw was Shep fighting certain enemies. There's no way of knowing if different enemies that we haven't seen will or will not have Armour.

[TheBlackBaron]

The UI from the demo is clearly just a modification of the ME2 one - evidenced by how it seems to think the Mattock is a Vindicator - so I wouldn't be surprised to see that and the bars change in the next nine months.

[SNascimento]

clerkenwell wrote...

Doubtful. The demos were clearly being played at Normal difficulty or below where defensive layers are scarce, and the only enemy types we saw were some Cerberus mooks and the Cannibals. I imagine the Cerberus enemies will follow the Blue Suns pattern set by ME2 (mostly shields, rarely armor, never barriers). Cannibals will probably have armor on higher difficulties.

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This.
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And the idea of defense layers was great. Made combat in Mass Effect 2 much better. 

[Someone With Mass]

Most of the things in the demo were pretty much half-done, and I don't think enemies starts to add additional protection until Veteran or higher, so it's a little hard to judge.

[Shotokanguy]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

The UI from the demo is clearly just a modification of the ME2 one - evidenced by how it seems to think the Mattock is a Vindicator - so I wouldn't be surprised to see that and the bars change in the next nine months.

This is partly what I was thinking...we still have no idea what changes there are from ME2.

The fact that they have invincibility on in these demos also doesn't rule out the possibility that they put these demos on higher difficulties.

[Uszi]

Yeah, I wouldn't expect the UI to be completely finalized given that the game has 9 more months of development. Additionally, the game was on some sort of ultra-low difficulty setting. In one of the videos I remember Shepard getting pushed down to 0 health, keep taking fire, but still not going down.

I think you're supposed to be watching for new combat mechanics and enemies, not necessarily for UI details or how difficult combat will actually wind up being.

[Shotokanguy]

^uh, yeah dude, they have invincibility on in the demos.

Heh, I mean, when Shepard's health went down Jesse even mentioned that ME3 is harder than the first two games...

[PsychoWARD23]

Wait..... you want them to remove those? What's next, removing health bars so you can one shot someone with a pistol in the foot?

[Shotokanguy]

Yeah man. Totally. That's what I was hinting at, right?

Wait, stop tricking me. That's not what I was implying at all. I think I was just bringing up the topic of the "armor" bar in ME2 again, a concept I kind of hated because it drags combat down some.

Modifié par Shotokanguy, 11 juin 2011 - 05:30 .

[FluffyScarf]

Just pretend they're spamming AR from M1. Holding down mouse 1 while the enemies health didn't drop at all sure was fun.

[javierabegazo]

The problem with the armor bar was that it didn't have any real tangible effect on the battlefield, other than to serve as an extended life bar.

[lazuli]

javierabegazo wrote...

The problem with the armor bar was that it didn't have any real tangible effect on the battlefield, other than to serve as an extended life bar.

...and govern which abilities/weapons would be more effective in a given situation.

...and provide a buffer layer before most powers would take effect.

[Shotokanguy]

lazuli wrote...

javierabegazo wrote...

The problem with the armor bar was that it didn't have any real tangible effect on the battlefield, other than to serve as an extended life bar.

...and govern which abilities/weapons would be more effective in a given situation.

...and provide a buffer layer before most powers would take effect.

See, the problem is, it simply made some things less fun. Biotics, namely.

I think, if they stuck to their lore, they could keep the sort of "rock paper scissors" thing they had in ME2 in ME3 with shields, barriers, and health alone. Seeing as shields and barriers are different, why don't they make them function slightly differently? 

It'd be more variation between classes as well, which the RPG fanatics would love.

I'm sure my opinion on the armor bar was more developed a year ago when my ME2 experiences were still fresh in my mind, but for now, that's all I can really think of. If I come up with more meat to add to this topic, I'll definitely mention it. I really feel like that damn bar is a bad thing.

[lazuli]

Shotokanguy wrote...

See, the problem is, it simply made some things less fun. Biotics, namely.

I don't know that anyone really has the stamina for the protections debate again, so I'll just sum up my stance as briefly as possible:

The game is balanced for normal.  On normal mode (in ME2), only bosses had defenses.  Arguably, you shouldn't be able to turn any boss into a non-issue with the wave of your hand.   The novelty of effortlessly lifting an entire room of enemies off of their feet in ME1 wears quickly, at least for me.

[Aimi]

Shotokanguy wrote...

See, the problem is, it simply made some things less fun. Biotics, namely.

No, it made them less easy.  There's a vast difference.

Shotokanguy wrote...

I think, if they stuck to their lore, they could keep the sort of "rock paper scissors" thing they had in ME2 in ME3 with shields, barriers, and health alone. Seeing as shields and barriers are different, why don't they make them function slightly differently? 

It'd be more variation between classes as well, which the RPG fanatics would love.

It's pretty obvious you don't know what you're talking about at this point.  Blame your memory.  Biotic barriers and shields function quite differently (try using Concussive Shot on a shielded mook, or Overload on an Eclipse Vanguard), and armor functions differently from both of those.

I like how you brought in "lore" without actually bringing in lore to back up your position.  Even if you did, it wouldn't matter.  It's well established that gameplay trumps lore, and rightly so.  You biotic fanatics - I say this as somebody who's playing an Adept on Insanity at the moment - would be mortified if we actually used lore to dictate combat.  Do you really want to force biotics to be restricted to a few moves in combat before having to chow down on energy bars or chug protein shakes?

Honestly, though, this is just another one of those wishful thinking threads that wants to bring us back to the Bad Old Days of ME1, when biotics were an instant win button on every difficulty level and tactics were dead.  I'm glad the devs don't listen to these kinds of threads.

[Praetor Knight]

Shotokanguy wrote...

I think, if they stuck to their lore, they could keep the sort of "rock paper scissors" thing they had in ME2 in ME3 with shields, barriers, and health alone. Seeing as shields and barriers are different, why don't they make them function slightly differently? 

It'd be more variation between classes as well, which the RPG fanatics would love.

I'm sure my opinion on the armor bar was more developed a year ago when my ME2 experiences were still fresh in my mind, but for now, that's all I can really think of. If I come up with more meat to add to this topic, I'll definitely mention it. I really feel like that damn bar is a bad thing.

Well, IMHO, that armor bar was an attempt to convey ME1 mechanics into ME2, that was not beloved as it seems.
I was fine with the armor bar at any rate.

I just wanted to add some stuff to this discussion that I've mulled over myself.

So in ME1, biotic and tech talents used on the player could be made less effective with Hardening. There was an Armor Mod called Hardened Weave that explains that it provides "a complex filament network of element zero microcores combined with advanced firewall technology provide[ing] protection against both biotic and tech attacks"

So the five classes, except the Sentinel, could put 11 skill points in the Armor talent for a total of 20% added on top of the Hardening from armor mods. So with Armor Mods, you could add an additional 70% to Hardening and a total of 180% Physics Threshold from two Combat Exoskeletons. (Especially helpful with that one fight on Noveria! )

There also is an Armor Mod, Shock Absorbers, whose description states, "Installing micro-gravimetric emitters into a combat suit artificially increases mass, providing protection against concussive force delivered by explosives, high impact ammo and biotic attacks such as Lift or Throw"

Then going with the light Colossus X armor you have an additional 38% resistance against Tech and Biotics, or 50% with the Predator L X armor.

That resistance can be further improved if you are a Soldier or Vanguard, going with the Shock Trooper evolution, providing an additional 16% to Hardening.

I don't know how the values work together in the actual formulas against talents used on the player in ME1, but maximizing Hardening and having any added Physics Threshold allows you to shrug off biotic abilities in ME1, and that one fight on Noveria is also made easier, even on Insanity.

Then in ME2, Shepard is only staggered, which seems to imply that Hardening is standard in the Armor used by Shepard and the Squad. The Codex entry on Body Armor gives a clear enough picture on how it responds to threats, and we can research upgrades that improve the Armor further.

Therefore if Shepard can have a persistent resistance, having elite enemies with protections that can defeat Biotics and Tech abilities, makes having an Armor Bar on enemies as a fair compromise for gameplay purposes in ME2.




In other words...

So knowing that biotic abilities could be countered in ME1, I figure that biotic resistances by Shields, Barriers and Armor fit well enough in ME2, especially knowing that professional and semi-professional organizations should be prepared enough to counter at least some Tech and Biotic abilities as it is.

And that they do not completely neutralize Shep and Co's biotic abilities as could theoretically happen with what ME1 gave us with tech either in ME2: I look forward to the wrinkles in ME3!


Armor in particular, having some degree of Hardening built in to them, seems capable enough as we see in ME2 to counter Biotics without a persistent effect against them, as armor's effect can be depleted in ME2, (with only a few enemies able to regenerate armor).

So in ME3 if there is no armor bar at all, I look forward to some enemies shruging off biotic attacks with only a health bar.