51 réponses à ce sujet

[Sharpy33]

wr3xl3ss wrote...

Sharpy33 wrote...

wr3xl3ss wrote...

Sharpy33 wrote...

Flashlegend wrote...

Sharpy33 wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Bioware repeats the same story every single time, dude. They aren't original at all.

Disagree

ME2's story was different from all of their other games

The story in ME2 might have been original but it was a very weak one.

How so?

It was a character driven story, the goal of the story was made clear at the beginning, what made the story was great was the companion's stories; the characters drove the story

The universe may not have change a great deal, but there was character development of Joker, Liara, Garrus etc
It made you care more about the story

Reminiscient of the Empire Strikes Back

More of Lost than exactly Empire Strikes Back. SW, no matter which way you try to slice it, was never character driven, with one single exception of course.

The game was 50% loyalty missions which were character driven
(unless you skipped them and we all know what happens then)

Do you even read what other people write? Let's try again...

More of Lost than exactly Empire Strikes Back. SW, no matter which way you try to slice it, was never character driven, with one single exception of course.

SW = Star Wars
ME = Mass Effect

I assume you notice the difference. I never said ME2 wasn't character driven.

No need to get personal
I'm talking about ME not SW

[RainyDayLover]

You see....with Bioware games, it's all about the jouney. I couldn't care less if the story isn't original; I expect the storytelling to be top-notch.

Modifié par RainyDayLover, 11 juin 2011 - 12:12 .

[Whatever42]

Haven't played all the games but while many of the story elements remain the same (good guy goes on quest to stop bad guys from doing bad things), I would say most Bioware games have unique story arcs. While you can point to elements re-used between the games, I would say that the elements have been changed enough that they still feel pretty unique.

Sure, ME3 is gathering the races to defeat the Reapers but its in an entirely different context.

There is no such thing as a unique story. Its all mix and match, repurpose and reuse. Like cooking, the trick is to mix the elements so the story has its own unique flavour.

[Reapinger]

Maybe people can just accept that there are going to be elements similar to every RPG... Adversity, whoa thats a new one. A seemingly indefatigable enemy, hmmm no story has that. One person has the power to unite, you people will complain about anything. Every story has some similarity. Just because Lion KIng has a similar story to Star Wars doesn't mean that they're the same. My 2 cents is you have nothing else to complain about or do with your life.

[Dapper Pomegranate]

Teddie Sage wrote...

The "sad" thing about this "truth" is that nobody really cares as long as the game is "good". It actually bugs me that it's going to have a Dragon Age Origins feeling to it, but it's still Mass Effect we're playing, not Dragon Age.

You know, even if it has the same story, the thing that'll set it apart will be the feel of it just as with every other story that has been done before but still feels fresh.

[Il Divo]

The problem with Bioware games is not necessarily that they share stories, but that the order in which the story unfolds,  makes all Bioware games feel very similar at their core.

You have:

Prologue-->Choose your own mission order-->'surprise mission' where your character potentially learns something important-->Conclusion.

Admittedly, some Bioware games play around with this set up, but  overall it follows a general structure. Unfortunately, this does expose the fact that Bioware games don't really have a single, focused storyline. KotOR's story, for example, is accompanied by four planets with completely unrelated storylines to finding the Starforge. The interactions/choices/world-building Bioware presents are usually great, but the storylines themselves are not developed throughout the entire game, imo.

Modifié par Il Divo, 11 juin 2011 - 12:30 .

[Faust1979]

Flashlegend wrote...

Sharpy33 wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Bioware repeats the same story every single time, dude. They aren't original at all.

Disagree

ME2's story was different from all of their other games

The story in ME2 might have been original but it was a very weak one.

The story of ME2 wasnt all that original it kinda felt like the dirty dozen in space. You gather a group of bad asses to attack something

[The Spamming Troll]

who ****ing cares if the stories already been told?

ive seen the movie Avatars story in a few movies, but it doesnt mean avatar isnt one the best movies ive ever seen.

its fairly easy to guess a route ME3 will take in uniting species to defeat the reapers.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 11 juin 2011 - 12:35 .

[Il Divo]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

who ****ing cares if the stories already been told?

ive seen the movie Avatars story in a few movies, but it doesnt mean avatar is one the best movies ive ever seen.

Actually, that's the point. Because Avatar is such a blatant rehash of Dances with Wolves would be a reason to potentially dislike the film, not consider it one of the best movies ever.

Modifié par Il Divo, 11 juin 2011 - 12:35 .

[Flashlegend]

Sharpy33 wrote...

Flashlegend wrote...

Sharpy33 wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Bioware repeats the same story every single time, dude. They aren't original at all.

Disagree

ME2's story was different from all of their other games

The story in ME2 might have been original but it was a very weak one.

How so?

It was a character driven story, the goal of the story was made clear at the beginning, what made the story was great was the companion's stories; the characters drove the story

The universe may not have change a great deal, but there was character development of Joker, Liara, Garrus etc
It made you care more about the story

Reminiscient of the Empire Strikes Back

Usually a good character driven story has characters with relevance to the over arching plot, which was most definitely not the case in ME2. Indeed, most of the loyalty missions were well done in the game but they derailed the story(you honestly don't think its ridiculous that shepard could make so many stops unrelated to his mission?). Not to mention the antagonists of the game came off as fairly weak when compared to Saren of the first game. Also, the collectors were taking colonists for 2 years to build a human reaper that would do what exactly?(and according to Edi they had a hell of a long time to go)

So as I said, a fairly weak story.

Modifié par Flashlegend, 11 juin 2011 - 12:35 .

[The Spamming Troll]

i dont think its legal to change avatars il divo.

[Il Divo]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

i dont think its legal to change avatars il divo.

Hmm, you're probably right. I am missing Death's Hand something awful.

[Sharpy33]

Flashlegend wrote...

Sharpy33 wrote...

Flashlegend wrote...

Sharpy33 wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Bioware repeats the same story every single time, dude. They aren't original at all.

Disagree

ME2's story was different from all of their other games

The story in ME2 might have been original but it was a very weak one.

How so?

It was a character driven story, the goal of the story was made clear at the beginning, what made the story was great was the companion's stories; the characters drove the story

The universe may not have change a great deal, but there was character development of Joker, Liara, Garrus etc
It made you care more about the story

Reminiscient of the Empire Strikes Back

Usually a good character driven story has characters with relevance to the over arching plot, which was most definitely not the case in ME2. Indeed, most of the loyalty missions were well done in the game but they derailed the story(you honestly don't think its ridiculous that shepard could make so many stops unrelated to his mission?). Not to mention the antagonists of the game came off as fairly weak when compared to Saren of the first game. Also, the collectors were taking colonists for 2 years to build a human reaper that would do what exactly?(and according to Edi they had a hell of a long time to go)

So as I said, a fairly weak story.

Well I don't agree that it was a weak story but ME2 was the middle chapter in the story, and the middle chapter has no beginning and no ending (I'm talking about the Trilogy story), the middle chapter has to carry the characters onto the final act

The middle chapter's ending is also usually the most unsatisfying, I'm sure when we finish ME3, we will appreciate ME2's story more 

The collectors were building the human reaper to replace Sovereign to repeat ME1's story (sorta) 

[Flashlegend]

Sharpy33 wrote...

Flashlegend wrote...

Sharpy33 wrote...

Flashlegend wrote...

Sharpy33 wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Bioware repeats the same story every single time, dude. They aren't original at all.

Disagree

ME2's story was different from all of their other games

The story in ME2 might have been original but it was a very weak one.

How so?

It was a character driven story, the goal of the story was made clear at the beginning, what made the story was great was the companion's stories; the characters drove the story

The universe may not have change a great deal, but there was character development of Joker, Liara, Garrus etc
It made you care more about the story

Reminiscient of the Empire Strikes Back

Usually a good character driven story has characters with relevance to the over arching plot, which was most definitely not the case in ME2. Indeed, most of the loyalty missions were well done in the game but they derailed the story(you honestly don't think its ridiculous that shepard could make so many stops unrelated to his mission?). Not to mention the antagonists of the game came off as fairly weak when compared to Saren of the first game. Also, the collectors were taking colonists for 2 years to build a human reaper that would do what exactly?(and according to Edi they had a hell of a long time to go)

So as I said, a fairly weak story.

Well I don't agree that it was a weak story but ME2 was the middle chapter in the story, and the middle chapter has no beginning and no ending (I'm talking about the Trilogy story), the middle chapter has to carry the characters onto the final act

The middle chapter's ending is also usually the most unsatisfying, I'm sure when we finish ME3, we will appreciate ME2's story more 

The collectors were building the human reaper to replace Sovereign to repeat ME1's story (sorta) 

Yes, we probably will when we do finish ME3 but for now. mehh

As for the collectors: they began taking colonists after killing Shepard at the beginning of ME2 and in the course of 2 years manage to take only tens or hundreds of thousands. But at the end ME2, Edi says completion of the reaper would require millions more and significantly more time. So completion of that reaper would've taken years and we know that all of the reapers will be hitting earth in 6-12 months after the end of ME2, so it seems to me the collectors were pointless from the beginning.(On the collector ship your squad mates also suggest that single ship has more pods than required to take all the humans in the terminus system, so even if they had managed to expedite their taking of humans in some magical way, they would have to target earth, which I don't think would have gone well.)

[Whatever42]

Il Divo wrote...

The problem with Bioware games is not necessarily that they share stories, but that the order in which the story unfolds,  makes all Bioware games feel very similar at their core.

You have:

Prologue-->Choose your own mission order-->'surprise mission' where your character potentially learns something important-->Conclusion.

Admittedly, some Bioware games play around with this set up, but  overall it follows a general structure. Unfortunately, this does expose the fact that Bioware games don't really have a single, focused storyline. KotOR's story, for example, is accompanied by four planets with completely unrelated storylines to finding the Starforge. The interactions/choices/world-building Bioware presents are usually great, but the storylines themselves are not developed throughout the entire game, imo.

You're right about that, of course. However, I'm at a bit of a loss on how to change the formula without keeping the intention > the illusion of freedom in the middle act.

You do need to set up the story. Then you set the player free to explore and do side missions. Then you throw in some suprise missions to keep up the tension and keep the character focused. The the player triggers some mission that starts the wrap up.

Remove the surprise missions and you get Morrowind, where players complain about too much freedom and too much confusion about what to do next. Remove the freedom of the middle act then you get an JRPG.

I guess you could remove the surprise missions by keeping the rest of the missions more story focused or put down a clear breadcrumb trail for the main mission, such as in BG2.

All-in-all, I'm not really sure its that important to the story. Its simply the game framework on which the story is told.
Is there a particular game that structures this better that improves the storytelling that you're thinking of?

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 11 juin 2011 - 01:00 .

[Il Divo]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

You're right about that, of course. However, I'm at a bit of a loss on how to change the formula without keeping the intention > the illusion of freedom in the middle act.

Ah, but here's the thing: we don't necessarily need the middle act's illusion. Take Jade Empire, for example. In Tien's Landing, the game had that 'choose your own adventure' format, but it was given much less prominence. This basically allowed them to launch into the Imperial City arc. In this case, I didn't think that losing the freedom of the middle act hurt the game too much, especially since the game provided a boatload of side quests. Overall, I think that choices with consequences are more important than the free-form missions. As long as we keep those, the game is able to present a much more focused narrative, while still allowing the player to feel important.

Remove the surprise missions and you get Morrowind, where players complain about too much freedom and too much confusion about what to do next. Remove the freedom of the middle act then you get an JRPG.

We definitely don't want Morrowind's story structure.

Is there a particular game that structures this better that improves the storytelling that you're thinking of?

I already mentioned Jade Empire, but Planescape Torment also comes to mind. I mean, how many times have we seen it hailed as the 'greatest RPG'. But I don't recall there being a middle act segment, akin to a Bioware game. There, the narrative is less fragmented. Every main quest (and several side quests) contribute to the development of the overarching story.

Modifié par Il Divo, 11 juin 2011 - 01:24 .

[HiddenKING]

Of course It's the same. It's Bioware after all.

[AlanC9]

Flashlegend wrote...

Sharpy33 wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Bioware repeats the same story every single time, dude. They aren't original at all.

Disagree

ME2's story was different from all of their other games

The story in ME2 might have been original but it was a very weak one.

And there you have it. People like Bio's standard story and don't like alternatives.

[Teknor]

That "know your Bioware chars" chart is stupid beyond measure.

Modifié par Teknor, 11 juin 2011 - 04:33 .

[Flashlegend]

AlanC9 wrote...

Flashlegend wrote...

Sharpy33 wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Bioware repeats the same story every single time, dude. They aren't original at all.

Disagree

ME2's story was different from all of their other games

The story in ME2 might have been original but it was a very weak one.

And there you have it. People like Bio's standard story and don't like alternatives.

Had the alternative been good, I would have liked it.

[Ghost Warrior]

Original story is almost impossible to make nowadays. It's characters,presentation and little things that matter.

[marshalleck]

AlanC9 wrote...

Flashlegend wrote...

Sharpy33 wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Bioware repeats the same story every single time, dude. They aren't original at all.

Disagree

ME2's story was different from all of their other games

The story in ME2 might have been original but it was a very weak one.

And there you have it. People like Bio's standard story and don't like alternatives.

Merely being an alternative is not sufficient. It should be good, or at the very least internally consistent and make sense. ME2, even as a "character-driven" story failed hard. Where was all the character interaction? We had two major conflicts between the entire crew. They weren't so much a team as they were a collection of henchmen. 

ME2 would have made a better TV serial than a game. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 11 juin 2011 - 04:46 .

[yummysoap]

Flashlegend wrote...

Sharpy33 wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Bioware repeats the same story every single time, dude. They aren't original at all.

Disagree

ME2's story was different from all of their other games

The story in ME2 might have been original but it was a very weak one.

True, but Dragon Age 2 had an original story as well, and the fans are still lamenting the fact that it wasn't another "hero saves the world against abominable evil" cliche. After the pages and pages of fan rage I've seen on their forums I doubt Bioware will do any further experimentation on their tried and trusted formula for game stories for fear of uprisal.