155 réponses à ce sujet

[CannonO]

We just want an improved version of open exploration from ME1. N7 missions can stay, but they really over did it by replacing open worlds entirely for small and enclosed areas.

[Eurhetemec]

Admoniter wrote...
 Beter they just ditch the resource system because I highly doubt that third try is the charm.

Whilst I totally agree, there is one thing they could try - making the resources solely from actual levels. In ME2, you pick up lots of boxes of purified platinum or the like, but they're such pathetic, tiny amounts that it's a joke. I mean, literally, you might find 3000 platinum on a level full of it. Which is what, two probes worth? Maybe not even that much!

If, instead, though, you found 5x or 10x as much in boxes, and didn't have to scan planets, then this might work.

I'd rather they dumped it, but if they insist on keeping it, this would be somewhat less painful, I think. It has some flaws of it's own, too, of course (like being more limiting in terms of how fast you can get resources than Mining).

[elitecom]

Let's take this discussion further. Now, arguments such as: "Shepard doesn't have time to scan for resources or explore alien worlds because the galaxy is at war with the Reapers and he has better things to do", they've been debunked. The galaxy was at stake in the last two games as well, and Shepard still had time to get drunk on the Citadel and help people with miscellaneous problems taking up their daily lives. That the hero can take time to help ordinary people and not only care about his/her own quest, is one of the defining features of a great hero. I think Vandar Tokare from KotOR said it best:"The Jedi are not a cloistered order, our influnce and teachings must spread beyond the walls of our academies". Now I'm not saying that Shepard should be some kind of Jedi, I just used that quote to prove my point.

In Mass Effect(1) it's also stated that the Alliance is always in need of resources, now in a time of war I suspect that the need will be even great, which is another incentive to why exploration and resource gathering should be in Mass Effect 3. I've also written an example from before where resource gathering could be tied in directly to the game:

Let's say that a big battle comes up between an Alliance/Citadel fleet and a Reaper fleet. There are three outcomes, based on how many resources you find. Find enough, and the Alliance/Citadel fleet manages to stop the Reaper, gather partially enough, the Reapers are stopped but most of the ships are destoryed, and the final outcome: You don't gather enough resources and the Alliance/Citadel fleet is destoryed while the Reapers advance. This is just an idea of an example of how you could couple resource gathering with the war against the Reapers.

[onelifecrisis]

AlanC9 wrote...

How about having none of this at all?

I mean, really. The final war with the Reapers has started, and Shepard's running around on barren worlds?

This. So this. I really don't get why some people want to go off exploring when all advanced galactic life is at stake.

elitecom wrote...

Let's take this discussion further. Now, arguments such as: "Shepard doesn't have time to scan for resources or explore alien worlds because the galaxy is at war with the Reapers and he has better things to do", they've been debunked. The galaxy was at stake in the last two games as well, and Shepard still had time to get drunk on the Citadel and help people with miscellaneous problems taking up their daily lives. 

Maybe your Shepard did. Mine take their responsibilities a little more seriously and wish that sort of crap wasn't in the game.

Modifié par onelifecrisis, 23 juin 2011 - 08:40 .

[elitecom]

onelifecrisis wrote...

elitecom wrote...

Let's take this discussion further. Now, arguments such as: "Shepard doesn't have time to scan for resources or explore alien worlds because the galaxy is at war with the Reapers and he has better things to do", they've been debunked. The galaxy was at stake in the last two games as well, and Shepard still had time to get drunk on the Citadel and help people with miscellaneous problems taking up their daily lives. 

Maybe your Shepard did. Mine take their responsibilities a little more seriously and wish that sort of crap wasn't in the game.

Well then you know what's great about that and exploration? It's optional. You don't have to do it if you don't want to.

[Massadonious1]

Exploration should be exploration. Not a Sim City landscape box with pre-determined locations.

[elitecom]

Massadonious1 wrote...

Exploration should be exploration. Not a Sim City landscape box with pre-determined locations.

Well perhaps fewer locations of interest should be displayed on the main map, so that you've more to find by exploring.

I was also thinking of how ME3 really is set up for some good exploration. Let's say you drive around on an uncharted world, and discover a Mercenary base on the surface surrounded by a valley. Then you can for example modify your weapons to be better suited for long-range encounters, so you can fight your way down to the base(either on foot or in your vehicle), then modify your weapons for CQC, which you're sure to face inside the base. With mods back, this is fully possible, and would add on the existing gameplay, such as planning for the next encounter.

By the way when it comes to the vehicle, I vouch for the return of the Mako or a similar vehicle. Mostly because although the Hammerhead was quite agile, traversing rocky terrain would be difficult for a hovercraft. Therefore a vehicle with traction would be the best choice, considering the fact that many terrestrial worlds have rocky terrain.
It's just to fix the minor problems with the Mako, give it better grip and dampeners.

[gunswordfist]

Waste of time, waste of space. We don't need it and there's more important things to do than such empty planets. We just need bigger side missions than the ones in ME2 and to have no really small ones wasting space.

[gunswordfist]

search not such

[Bluko]

elitecom wrote...
 Exploration of barren worlds
What I really hope for in regards to exploration in ME3, is to have the vehicle based exploration of Mass Effect 1 back again. That was some really good exploration, to be able to explore vast barren worlds, discovering mercenary bases and other mysteries. It also had quite a lot of atmosphere, especially when the sky was dotted by the two starts of a binary star system or just the stars. The distance between engagements was also huge, you could really stand on top of a mountain, looking down at a mercenary base hundred of meters away, for then to pick them of one at a time with a sniper rifle. By the way, also try to make the AI to do some work to find you, some times you only had to fire one shot, and they were all on at you at once. They could pin-point you too well at times.
The worlds wouldn't all have to be barren of course, some variation would do nicely, if lush worlds are possible as well, then you can add them as well. Or you could come to a compromise, keep the lush worlds for the N7 type ME2 exploration, and keep the barren ones for the ME1 vehicle exploration. Though I prefer the former.

Eh majority of worlds should be "barren". But just because something isn't teeming with life, doesn't mean it can't be interesting. Although a few garden worlds is fine.

While I enjoyed the Uncharted Worlds there were two big problems that I feel they need to rectify if they do come back...

1) More negotiable/clear paths

Some of ME1's are a pain in the _ to navigate because the terrain is just ridiculously "edgy". Other worlds were done pretty well and fairly easy to drive across, like they should be for the player's sake. The other problem and something many aren't aware of is that they did often include paths on some of the mountainous worlds, but these were rarily clearly marked on the map.

2) Less repetition

Problem with the Uncharted Worlds is they used the same stuff over and over again. (ME2 does this as well though if you look closely.) I realize the Devs have limited assets, but it would help a lot if we didn't find the same 2 bases everywhere. Each side mission should be unique in it's own way. Although at least ME1 had semi-interesting side mission stories in that regard. ME2 barely had any at all, unless you consider reading screens "story".

elitecom wrote...
Which vehicle should be used?             
When it comes to the vehicle which should do this task, I think something similar to the Mako would do. Now I haven't played ME1 on Xbox so I don't know the problems there, but on the PC the only issue was really that it was too "jumpy" in a sense. It was too sensitive at times, if you drove on a cliff a single bump could almost make the Mako summersault of the cliff. What really needs to be done is to give the vehicle better dampening, so that it's not that sensitive.

I've never had difficultly driving the Mako itself. The vehicle handles just fine, and really if you think the Mako has "bad" controls I don't recommend you play any sort of vehicle games ever. The Mako handles pretty well all things considered. Only real issue is as you said it's a bit "bouncy". It would help if the vehicle was a little more weighty.

The Hammerhead isn't entirely bad either, but if it comes back it needs some actual shields and a weapon besides missiles. 
                     

elitecom wrote...
New type of space exploration
However this is just the ground exploration, I was also thinking adding a new type of space exploration to the game. In both ME1 and ME2 we could travel around to different nebulae and star systems, but they'd all been charted before. So in ME3 how about giving the player the ability to travel to completely uncharted star systems. To give the player the ability to open some new relays leading to places where no citadel species has gone before. Then you can scan the planets, maybe discover a new species, to aid against the reaper threat. Maybe you can also name the planets of the new star system you've charted. There could be incredible benefits.

Eh I'm okay with ME2's galaxy map exploration. Although I could do without the mini-Normandy and marble looking planet views. (And well planet scanning...)

[Captain Crash]

Having known about the Atlas and seeing the Chase in the vehicle on Tuchanka, I am fearful that our exploration craft (Hammerhead/Mako) will be removed by these new assets.

This to me would be a real shame

[ZLurps]

88mphSlayer wrote...

i'm not sure why people have a problem with exploration since it's always optional

This. Why to do them if they feel so tedious?

That said I played on PC and I'v read that there is actually something wrong with exploration maps and frame synch on Xbox, making Mako difficult to controll if frame rate dropped.

I hope we get to experience some sort of exploration in ME3, there doesn't need to be as much exploration as in ME3 but even a little bit would be really nice.

[Brand New]

FlyingWalrus wrote...

ME1's "exploration" was like running around in a dilapidated sandbox. I'm all for it if Bioware populates those worlds with fancy new things to see and find that really reward the player (say, unique armor or weapon modifications, or even more tidbits about the history of the universe or the planetoid one happens to be exploring. Perhaps one of those fetch quests that were in ME1, the ones that involved finding Salarian dogtags, Asari writings and Prothean artifacts, except actually rewarding and not-pointless).

But if it's just going to be a craggy open space with maybe a base of criminals or goons to kill or a thresher maw every once in a while, then I don't really see how it benefits the experience as a whole. Mostly what I did in subsequent playtroughs was climb to the highest peak on the planet, call it good, and leave the place for good.

It is confirmed in one of the gameplay trailers from E3 though that you will be able to land at different points on some planets, so groundside exploration may be making a return in a more refined form. Of course, everything until release is tentative but let us hope that Bioware is expanding the experience from ME1 and ME2 in some way.

I will really enjoy being able to land on worlds and uncover ruins etc. Perhaps visit worlds never before seen. I wonder what the Geth are up to in the Persius Viel.

[Bluko]

Captain Crash wrote...

Having known about the Atlas and seeing the Chase in the vehicle on Tuchanka, I am fearful that our exploration craft (Hammerhead/Mako) will be removed by these new assets.

This to me would be a real shame

Probably, I don't entertain much thought we'll even see the Mako/Hammerhead.

It seems like the Atlas Mech is the bone being thrown to those of us who like vehicular combat. I like the Atlas but to me it basically looks like an overpowered gameplay perk to let you mow down lots of baddies. I'd be surprised if we actually used for any sort of meaningful purposes in ME3.

It's unfortunate to me, cause honestly with a little tweaking the Mako could have been great addition to the series. It saddens me that simply because people don't seem to understand how a mult-wheel vehicle would drive that they bash it so much. And the arguements the Mako cannon can't be aimed low. Well duh... since when have you ever seen a tank aim it's canon lower then the horizontal plane of the frame? It's not physically possible unless the Turret is situated in a high position (which would be poor modern tank design).

I admit the Mako bounces a little bit much, but that's rarely a problem given that it doesn't take any damage from such.

[elitecom]

Bluko wrote...
Eh majority of worlds should be "barren". But just because something isn't teeming with life, doesn't mean it can't be interesting. Although a few garden worlds is fine.

2) Less repetition

Problem with the Uncharted Worlds is they used the same stuff over and over again. (ME2 does this as well though if you look closely.) I realize the Devs have limited assets, but it would help a lot if we didn't find the same 2 bases everywhere. Each side mission should be unique in it's own way. Although at least ME1 had semi-interesting side mission stories in that regard. ME2 barely had any at all, unless you consider reading screens "story".

Definitely I agree, most terrestrial worlds are barren, out of the 5 planets in our solar system, only one is lush. It was a suggestion, however considering the fact that ME3 is built with Xbox 360 hardware in mind. Large maps with lush vegation would probably be a bit of a strain on its hardware. Anyways I don't mind barren worlds.
 
Indeed ME1 did have many interesting sidequests(especially story wise) such as The League of One, and many others. Their return in ME3 would be most welcome.

Bluko wrote...
I've never had difficultly driving the Mako itself. The vehicle handles just fine, and really if you think the Mako has "bad" controls I don't recommend you play any sort of vehicle games ever. The Mako handles pretty well all things considered. Only real issue is as you said it's a bit "bouncy". It would help if the vehicle was a little more weighty.

The Hammerhead isn't entirely bad either, but if it comes back it needs some actual shields and a weapon besides missiles.

I agree completely, however the Hammerhead won't be as suited for the barren rocky worlds as the Mako would be.

Bluko wrote...
Eh I'm okay with ME2's galaxy map exploration. Although I could do without the mini-Normandy and marble looking planet views. (And well planet scanning...)

I like the idea, would be something entirely new and alien. You would travel through space where no Citadel(or non-Citadel) species has traveled before.

Brand New wrote...
I will really enjoy being able to land on worlds and uncover ruins etc. Perhaps visit worlds never before seen. I wonder what the Geth are up to in the Persius Viel.

I feel the exact same way.

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

onelifecrisis wrote...

elitecom wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

elitecom wrote...

In ME1 we had a galaxy to save, in ME2 we had a galaxy to save, and what did we have time to in both those games? Exploration among a couple of other things, such as getting drunk on the Citadel. If Shepard has time to get drunk on the Citadel, he has time to explore space as well.

Exactly. This was a problem in both games and it needs to change.

I don't think so, it's how RPGs work. It's the same in KotOR, you have a galaxy to save yet you have time to play Pazaak and drive swoop bikes. If all you could do was following the story 100%, the game would be over too soon. Sidequests are a big part of the RPG experience.

Please, let's not drag this into yet another pointless debate on what an RPG is, especially seeing as ME3 isn't an RPG. You want exploration, I don't. I gave my reasons.

And no, the game would not be over too soon without sidequests. ME2 takes almost 30 hours just to do the main story, which makes it several times the length of the average SP shooter campaign. Don't get me wrong, I love that it's 30 hours long. I'm just saying that your argument (that it's "too short" without side-quests and exploration) doesn't hold water.

Um... it only takes like 17 hours if you do JUST the story missions. Side quests are definitely needed, but they need to be things that make sense to help against the reapers. Like... you're on the salarian homeworld and there is a massive shield or ship or something under repair and they need you to find something that is only available on the other side of their planet (which you will be going to at some point anyway to explore that planet) And when you find it and they repair w/e it helps the top scientists or someone escape before the reapers show up there. 

Those kind of quests would be good.... NOT hey... go to random rock number 7 that looks just like random rock number 18 and enter the base that only has some crates shifted 3 feet to the right and kill the guys that wear the same as the guys on random planet number 7 while you're at it. All to get something that doesn't even matter for anything. That is the definition of boring and tedius. 

[In Exile]

elitecom wrote...
It has been discussed before, and I reply with this:
In ME1 we had a galaxy to save, in ME2 we had a galaxy to save, and what did we have time to in both those games? Exploration among a couple of other things, such as getting drunk on the Citadel. If Shepard has time to get drunk on the Citadel, he has time to explore space as well.

But ME1 handled it completely like garbage. ME2 wasn`t much better, and ME2 wasn't on a time crunch, and when it was, Shepard was forced to act.

Why are you acting as if a previously bad implementation addresses complaints that the implementation will be bad?

[AlanC9]

gunswordfist wrote...

search not such

Posts on this board can be edited. Look for an "edit" button on a post you made.

[elitecom]

In Exile wrote...
But ME1 handled it completely like garbage. ME2 wasn`t much better, and ME2 wasn't on a time crunch, and when it was, Shepard was forced to act.

Why are you acting as if a previously bad implementation addresses complaints that the implementation will be bad?

Well if there's no exploration or time for sidequest, and you only have time to do the main quest's quests, then it'll be too linear, and over a bit quick too. The galaxy is large, and I'd like to see it and experience it.

[In Exile]

elitecom wrote...
Well if there's no exploration or time for sidequest, and you only have time to do the main quest's quests, then it'll be too linear, and over a bit quick too. The galaxy is large, and I'd like to see it and experience it.

Why do you equate a side-quest with exploration? We could have lots of side-quests and no exploration, just tying each side-quest to a main-quest world and the side-quests themselves to the main plot. It's just like pretending we need exploration for non-linear content.

[CaptainSpandex]

 Totally agree with the OP.

Mass Effect 2 really threw the baby out with the bathwater by removing the Mako and planet exploration. Was it perfect? No. But it was interactive, and it was the kind of 'hard' sci-fi you just don't see in video games. Replacing the exploration with a dumb radar that vibrates to tell you when to push a button... it was a really condescending design choice, and more importantly... not much fun.

[Gatt9]

AlanC9 wrote...

How about having none of this at all?

I mean, really. The final war with the Reapers has started, and Shepard's running around on barren worlds?

I'm going to have to agree with you here,  judging from what we've seen,  this game is in "Oblivion zone". 

Oblivion had the huge problem of a plotline that screamed "There's an impending invasion!!!!",  but the actual game played like it was a warm summer's day with nothing going on.  The plot and the gameplay were completely conflicting.

ME3's really in the same place,  Earth's under attack and Shepherd's...wandering around...this looks like trouble to me.  Having an ultra-urgent quest but sending the player on an extremely time consuming task makes little sense.

It could still be managed so that it works,  but including exploration?  Planet exploration does not work.  It goes "Oblivion". 

That said,  they need to quit with the corridor runs and reward players for exploring the local areas.  ME2's gameplay was an inch away from being a game on rails,  ME3 really needs to stay away from that.

[elitecom]

In Exile wrote...

elitecom wrote...
Well if there's no exploration or time for sidequest, and you only have time to do the main quest's quests, then it'll be too linear, and over a bit quick too. The galaxy is large, and I'd like to see it and experience it.

Why do you equate a side-quest with exploration? We could have lots of side-quests and no exploration, just tying each side-quest to a main-quest world and the side-quests themselves to the main plot. It's just like pretending we need exploration for non-linear content.

I don't necessarily link side-quests with exploration, however here's three points to explain.

1. To only have the main-quest available to do would be too linear and no freedom. As with the previous two games, we had a lot of side-quests and exploration that wasn't necessarily always tied into the main story. Why were they there? Well so we could develop our character and discover new upgrades to our weapons and armor, perhaps even new weapons too. We had freedom to travel around in the Galaxy and experience it, we could truly discover it and extra lore, the story specific planets. It was all there, and gave a certain form of life to the galaxy.

2. I've made suggestions before regarding how exploration and mining planets could be tied into the main-quest.

3. The last thing is to keep in mind that exploration is optional, you don't have to do it if you don't want to.

CaptainSpandex wrote...

Totally agree with the OP.

Mass Effect 2 really threw the baby out with the bathwater by removing the Mako and planet exploration. Was it perfect? No. But it was interactive, and it was the kind of 'hard' sci-fi you just don't see in video games. Replacing the exploration with a dumb radar that vibrates to tell you when to push a button... it was a really condescending design choice, and more importantly... not much fun.

I agree 100%, and describing it(ME1's exploration) as "hard" sci-fi is a very good description actually, I didn't think of it like that but it fits very well. It's very atmospheric too, the uncharted worlds section in the codex with the vehicle and that squad standing outside on a barren world, just screamed atmosphere, and the same with the codex text. 
Throwing the Mako out entirely was unecessary, it only needed one minor tweak(better dampening) and it's perfect. So yeah I similar vehicle should definitely return, it's the only one that's fit for the job of space exploration.  

[Kadzin]

We need a combination of ME1 and ME2 timesinks.
Something fun to drive around like the Mako, but not a tedious terrain, and pointless resource gathering.
The resources should bring benefit like the scanning, but should not feel like a chore or just something you do because it's the only way to unlock upgrades.

I was thinking of something epic, like drinking a Mako or the Hammerhead though a field of Reaper corpses, ocasionally stopping to scan tech, pick up some minerals or resources and maybe fight some husks.

[ZLurps]

elitecom wrote...

In Exile wrote...

elitecom wrote...
Well if there's no exploration or time for sidequest, and you only have time to do the main quest's quests, then it'll be too linear, and over a bit quick too. The galaxy is large, and I'd like to see it and experience it.

Why do you equate a side-quest with exploration? We could have lots of side-quests and no exploration, just tying each side-quest to a main-quest world and the side-quests themselves to the main plot. It's just like pretending we need exploration for non-linear content.

I don't necessarily link side-quests with exploration, however here's three points to explain.

1. To only have the main-quest available to do would be too linear and no freedom. As with the previous two games, we had a lot of side-quests and exploration that wasn't necessarily always tied into the main story. Why were they there? Well so we could develop our character and discover new upgrades to our weapons and armor, perhaps even new weapons too. We had freedom to travel around in the Galaxy and experience it, we could truly discover it and extra lore, the story specific planets. It was all there, and gave a certain form of life to the galaxy.

2. I've made suggestions before regarding how exploration and mining planets could be tied into the main-quest.

3. The last thing is to keep in mind that exploration is optional, you don't have to do it if you don't want to.

CaptainSpandex wrote...

Totally agree with the OP.

Mass Effect 2 really threw the baby out with the bathwater by removing the Mako and planet exploration. Was it perfect? No. But it was interactive, and it was the kind of 'hard' sci-fi you just don't see in video games. Replacing the exploration with a dumb radar that vibrates to tell you when to push a button... it was a really condescending design choice, and more importantly... not much fun.

I agree 100%, and describing it(ME1's exploration) as "hard" sci-fi is a very good description actually, I didn't think of it like that but it fits very well. It's very atmospheric too, the uncharted worlds section in the codex with the vehicle and that squad standing outside on a barren world, just screamed atmosphere, and the same with the codex text. 
Throwing the Mako out entirely was unecessary, it only needed one minor tweak(better dampening) and it's perfect. So yeah I similar vehicle should definitely return, it's the only one that's fit for the job of space exploration.  

First, while I like exploration I think there might be better reasons for that than gathering resources for the Alliance. While everything gathered might count for something, I rather see Normandy doing something more important than being a role of mineral freighter.

Also, I think players would feel much more obligated to do exploration missions if they influenced for something major like battle outcome wouldn't necessarily feel like optional content player can do or skip anymore.

That said, AFAIK all that is said about ME3 regarding resources is Casey Hudson's tweet: "ME3's economy will be much bigger and there will be more choices in weaponry and armour." and that the mining mini-game won’t be abandoned completely. (Casey Hudson on videogamer.com)

For me it would make sense that player should have palladium, eezo, etc. to upgrade armours, weapons and Normandy like in ME2. I would speculate, that there isn't necessarily any need for Alliance Needs Resources motive for player to do exploration missions. It could be something else.

Here is my scenario:
Player get's to know about x amount of remaining Prothean sites, something like what Alliance found on Mars. If player can explore all these sites, player can salvage technology that improves mining effeciency. Improved mining effeciency would mean 10-15% less mining to get enough resources to get all uprades for Normandy, etc.

IMO, that would motivate player who wants to do exploration missions to do them without punishing players who don't want to do them, it would be just a choise between longer exploration missions or launching few more probes.

Other rewards could be finding lore items, to add bit more background and mystery to the worlds of Mass Effect. Doesn't need to be anything game changing, like they weren't in ME1 or 2. Those players who want to collect lore items can get them, those who don't want to collect them can skip them without influence to game outcome. Could be like find x amount of Reaper lore items - > Get codex entry that gives more information about Prothean's extinction.

Then, why do people do the optional stuff even they say they hate it? I think it's because 53 looks better than 50.

It looks like some players like to use every opportunity they have for grinding exp. There is level scaling in both games, but level 53 just looks better than level 50 and allows player to put points in additional atributes, most not needed to complete the game if their Shepard or squad weren't created... uh backwards... Then in ME2 we have "Retrain powers" feature anyway.

I think basically it's all about that different kind of games attract players who have different way to experience the game. ME games attract players who have played RPG's made by BioWare and other companies and are used to grind their characters to best possible stats.
Then if you check communities of sandbox games like GTA series nobody complains about insane stunts, pizza delivery missions or finding hidden packages etc. Instead they just skip content that they aren't really interested about.

I think the solution could be easy. Just remove the exp reward from ME exploration missions and have other kind of rewards like lore items mentioned earlier.

Anyway, I can think lot of ways to make exploration missions interesting without punishing players who don't like to do them. Doing exploration missions could for example give players access to some upgrades faster than without doing them, but later in game all players could have access to those upgrades. For those players who already have those upgrades there would be credit stash or something else abstract available instead like in ME2.


Edit:

I agree that ME2 threw baby with the water in ME2 but then we got Hammerhead DLC. I personally liked the freedom and athmosphere of ME1 exploration missions a lot though.

Modifié par ZLurps, 27 juin 2011 - 09:45 .