155 réponses à ce sujet

[Lumikki]

I like exploration, but I don't want driving in 50 barren world and there is just some empty bottles.

Point been exploration without real reasons why player is doing it, isn't good. It's get booring after while. World or space what is explored has to have meaning and reasons. I also have to find something interesting, to make my time spend in exporation be worth while. Repeating same actions over and over with very little variety is booring.

Modifié par Lumikki, 27 juin 2011 - 11:47 .

[elitecom]

ZLurps wrote...

Zlurps you've brought some interesting points to the thread and I believe your evaluation of why some players choose to do the exploration missions fits very well.
The "outcome of a battle" example is just an example for those who absolutely want an incentive to do the exploration.
The reasons for commencing with exploration is much more than just gathering resources, they're part of it but like we could experience from ME1 and ME2, there was a lot more to do than to just gather resources. You had sidequests and could gather relics and fight the Geth and stop their incursion in the Armstrong Nebula. There's a lot to do. As you said the player could find weapons, or other helpful objects. If you think of the new exploration I proposed, then you might discover new alien species which could aid you against the Reapers. I know it seems major, but it's a possibility.
I don't think XP points should be removed from exploring planets, a way to solve that problem is to well have the NG+ system. Then players who don't like to explore space can just do the main-quests and sidequests on hub worlds over and over again until they reach max level.


Idea for scanning which also ties into the exploration of a planet. "Is this planet worth exploring?"
I have a new idea for planet scanning(Not the same system as in ME2), now it goes like this. Let's say you arrive at planet X, and then you can perform a general scan of the planet, so that technical specifications of the planet along with its history and other data shows up(The same as in ME1 and ME2). However what also shows up is information about what kind of resources the planet has an abundance of and points of interest. Planet X in this example has an unusual large abundance of Iridium. Is this planet worth exploring? Well if I have enough Iridium I won't have to bother with the planet, unless I want to explore its surface and its points of interest.
 
Things doesn't always have to be that clear-cut, sometimes the scan might show 25% abundance of Iridium and 75% of another resource, so the majority of the resources will be of the other resource. How would this work then? Well let's say that on the planet's surface there are four deposits, then one of them will be of Iridium while the other three will be of the other resource.
 
Before anyone mentions ME2's system, this one won't be similar at all. The system will be the same as in ME1 for planets which you can't land on, you scan and you find a metal or gas. However for the worlds you can land on, information regarding the abundance of resources will be shown, and you can land to find these deposits on the planet's surface. So it's not planet scanning as in ME2. You don't have to play the mining mini-game since you'll already know what resources the planet have, you'll then have to decide whether you want to explore it further or not. This will also make things easier to choose if you want to spend time with this world or not. Again is it worth exploring? Do I have enough of this resource or do I need more? Does this planet have those resources I need? Those are the questions you are going to have to ask yourself, and it'll be easier to eliminate planets which you don't have to traverse since you already have enough of those resources.
Of course if you want to explore the points of interest you are going to have to land anyways, but not to gather any resources. So it's a more efficient system.  
 
When it comes to points of interest, in comparison to Mass Effect 1 fewer points of interest will be shown, so that you've to explore more for yourself.
 
This system will of course only work if the usage of the resources(use them to upgrade weapons, the ship, and now in ME3 mods again) are similar to that of ME2, if they're not then it won't work very well.
 
I'll stress this one more time, it's not the same system as in ME2.

Modifié par elitecom, 28 juin 2011 - 07:46 .

[ZLurps]

elitecom wrote...

While I really like exploration the problem I see with many explorable planets is the texture budget. AFAIK ME3 will take 2 DVD's and levels we have seen in E3 demo look pretty big already. 2 DVD's must include some amount of same content because otherwise console players would need to be swapping discs all the time and that would lead overall frustrating experience I think.

So, while I wish we would encounter similar moments while exploring the planets like we did in ME1, where I sometimes just stopped the Mako and looked the landskape, sky... I really would like to have at least some explorable planets, but I doubt we are going to get many, if any of planets like that at all.

That said, yes, there were a lot of things to do in ME1. We gathered relics (that's what I meant with lore items). In ME3 we might get a chance to take out indoctrination device / Husk plant on some planet(s) and perhaps save a small colony that way (bit similar to Geth missions in ME1).

IIRC it was Casey Hudson who said somewhere that ME3 will focus on the council races and Elcor, Hanar and Volus will not play major part in ME3, so I doubt we are going to find any new species. Instead we could find previously unknown Prothean sites (in ME1 there were Prothean data discs) but this time get perhaps bit faster mining capasity to Normandy like in example I wrote in my previous post.

I think we are going to see combination of mining and exploration (though, we don't know what kind of exploration that is going to be) in ME3. But instead of option to land on most planets we find lot's of resources, we may find something else. Prothean techology probes can't retrieve for example and it's up to player to decide if she/he want's to spend time going down on planet to retrieve it.

What comes to motivating players who like exploration missions without punishing players who want to skip them there are IMO lot's of ways to do that.
Say, the Alliance is fighting a battle that seems hopeless for them with their current technology. It would make sense that humankind (or any space faring race) want to warn coming galactic civilisations from the Reaper threat and preserve their history somehow.
In ME3 there could be optional mission where Shepard needs to find unhabitable planets (or even asteroids) that would be suitable to hide human en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_capsule from Reapers. It would be up to Shepard to explore and find suitable location for time capsules because scientists don't want to take a risk that locations would be revealed to Reapers because of indoctrination or Reapers gaining access to their logs via other means.
Normandy is chose to the task because it's stealth, it won't leave traces on Asari or Salarian, etc. surveillance satellites that could lead Reapers after time capsules if Reapers would gain access to satellite data later.

So, to be able to succeed in mission, Shepard must first explore star clusters and systems to find suitable locations and launch probes... or perhaps EDI could inform Shepard about possible locations when Normandy arrives in system... anyway, last step would be going down on said planet, or send away team to asteroid and explore exact location where time capsule would be put, buried or something.

Since we all know that our ultimate goal in ME3 is to stop Reapers players and time capsules won't be needed, players who don't like exploration can freely skip the whole quest, but those who like to explore would have motivation that makes sense. and they could get achievement and they could perhaps find something else (lore items, or actually relics mentioned earlier).

There could be exp. reward for doing exploration missions, but IMO it doesn't need to be anything game changing. In ME2 I hit the level 30 before SM. I had two characters level 50 or 50+ something though. Then, I'v read it's pretty easy to achieve level 30 in ME2 even if player starts from level 0.

To sum it up. I think reward from exploration, discovering relics and getting codex entries when there is enough relics gathered, and / or perhaps bit faster access to some things in technology tree would be ok. Things like that would perhaps be also easiest to implent in game. If there would be lot's of habited planets, there needs to be character models, textures for character models, audio files for Shepard and characters dialogue and besides all that someone needs to write them, direct them and do the voice acting.

Personally, I don't feel like all that would be needed and I would be satisfied with much just things like I wrote above. The "Hard Sci-Fi" feeling I think is much up to players imagination and how player experiences things in game world. I remember when I used to read sci-fi novels and wondered in my mind how it really would be to stare up to the alien sky, with strange colours and moons....
I don't know if there needs to be much content like that and have a lot of things to do, or voice acting, etc. Just a possibility and a reason, any reason to explore I think might be appealing enough for player who likes experiences like that in games.

[Neanhim]

Need ruins exploration. Reapers destroy civilization on the planet. Shep and co go to that civilization's ruins to finding artifacts, kill marauders and mutants. This could be a good action and experience.

[elitecom]

ZLurps wrote...

I agree again with many of your ideas.
I actually wrote about the issue with Xbox 360 in a previous post. The problem is that Mass Effect 3 is built with Xbox 360 hardware in mind, therefore lush jungle maps on the size of the Mass Effect 1 maps probably won't happen. Bioware can only go as far as the Xbox 360 hardware can go, so therefore no Crysis. This could limit content as well, or Bioware could put the game on 3 DVDs, one can always hope.
 
Well since Bioware hasn't shown or disclosed any more specifics about exploration, I'll assume that they're not finished yet, so this is the time to give them ideas. That's what this thread is about after all, discussing and giving each other ideas about exploration for Mass Effect 3. I was thinking of cataloguing some of the ideas which has been put forth so far, you gave me some interesting ideas in your post so I'll add them if you don't mind. I'll post the ideas in the first post.
 
For example the idea of placing time capsule as a mission is a nice idea. Perhaps you could also discover other races' time capsules left over time, with information about them. This would also fit excellently with my idea of being able to open new Relays. So yeah one idea created another one which was then connected with another one, anyways I'll add it to the list. 

Modifié par elitecom, 28 juin 2011 - 04:31 .

[Leoism]

I loved the exploration of ME1 I believe in more exploration to finding what you need rather than sitting and scanning 100's of planets to get my minerals .

[Leoism]

Isn't there any way to avoid disc swapping, i.e all new copies of the game will have a code which overides the boot from disk command so aslong as you have it installed on your hdd you can boot it from there or something? would be nice im not a coder or designer or tech of any kind, im just thinking out loud really

[AlanC9]

I hated exploration in ME1, mostly because it made no sense. for Shepard to be doing it. ME2 was better; scanning is dumb, but it goes fast (at least on PC).

What's the reason for putting exploration in ME3 in the first place?

Modifié par AlanC9, 28 juin 2011 - 05:08 .

[Leoism]

Well exploration could lead to more powerful weaponry or protection to help against the reapers, possible intel from previous invasions that an' old species may have found ways around the reaper defence's etc, who knows the possibilities are endless i guess, many alien technologies that could advance our own incredibly , have some imagination on the subject i'm sure u'll think of something!

[AlanC9]

Not quite what I meant.

Sure, I could come up with some sort of way to rationalize having exploration in the game. But why bother bending the story to have exploration?

Is exploration just good in itself, so the game should be shaped around having explroation?

[Sheppard-Commander]

I loved the free form exploration of ME1 vs the strictly linear fashion of ME2. I do think people make a good point about Shep running off exploring when the Reapers are on Earth munching on billions of humans.

Maybe it would make more sense to tie it in to end-game? Shepard could be searching for rescources to rebuild or new suitable worlds to colonize.

[In Exile]

Leoism wrote...

Well exploration could lead to more powerful weaponry or protection to help against the reapers, possible intel from previous invasions that an' old species may have found ways around the reaper defence's etc, who knows the possibilities are endless i guess, many alien technologies that could advance our own incredibly , have some imagination on the subject i'm sure u'll think of something!

Why would old, defunct space garbage work? It's like saying the allies should treasure hunt in the pyramids in the hope of finding an anti-Rommel super weapon.

[AlanC9]

In Exile wrote...


Why would old, defunct space garbage work? It's like saying the allies should treasure hunt in the pyramids in the hope of finding an anti-Rommel super weapon.

I think I've seen that movie, come to think of it. Though the Germans were the ones who ended up with the gadget.

[In Exile]

AlanC9 wrote...
I think I've seen that movie, come to think of it. Though the Germans were the ones who ended up with the gadget.

Hoisted by my own petard?

I get the fantasy convention of old is bettter... but why should that apply to a modern sci-fi setting?

[AlanC9]

Because people don't really like scifi, I guess.

I'll bet that in the ME setting you'd have entertainment with an Indiana Jones-equivalent running around busting into Prothean ruins rather than Eqyptian tombs.

The setting does kind of invite this sort of thing, since you did have these ancient races with tech that's still a little better than what the Citadel races have at ME's start. But OTOH the previous cycles had that tech, and it didn't save them.

Modifié par AlanC9, 28 juin 2011 - 06:48 .

[ZLurps]

AlanC9 wrote...

I hated exploration in ME1, mostly because it made no sense. for Shepard to be doing it. ME2 was better; scanning is dumb, but it goes fast (at least on PC).

This was posted in other topic:social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/323/index/7697586/2#7700679

onelifecrisis wrote...

Okay, let's do some math shall we?

ME2 resources required to get all upgrades:
Eezo: ~50k
Iridium: ~200k
Platinum: ~200k (not including the 50k med bay upgrade)
Palladium: ~200k
[/b][b]Total: ~650k

Resources gained from a single probe: about 2-3k, so let's say 2.5k.

Total probes that must be fired = 650/2.5 = 260 probes
Average time taken to find a decent spike, fire a probe at it, and wait for the probe to land and pick up the resources? Let's say 10 seconds per probe. That means 2600 seconds (about 45 minutes) firing probes at planets in ME2. And that calculation is a minimum which assumes that you find exactly the right amount of materials, and that your journey time between planets is zero (which obviously it isn't) so the real number is likely over an hour.

(edited to fix stoopid math error)

Note that in ME1 you didn't need to do any exploration. So why in the world you did it? Are you one of those folks that get's idea, that hey, there is option to use cheesegrater for masturbation and then sue the company because experience was unpleasant?

AlanC9 wrote...
What's the reason for putting exploration in ME3 in the first place?

What is the point of side missions etc. in any game? Give player freedom, offer different kind of experiences? There is no need in ME1 to do side missions anymore than there is need to do pizza delivery or vigilante missions in GTA.

AlanC9 wrote...
I'll bet that in the ME setting you'd have entertainment with an Indiana
Jones-equivalent running around busting into Prothean ruins rather than
Eqyptian tombs.

Obivously you read the thread...

Modifié par ZLurps, 28 juin 2011 - 07:44 .

[TheOtherTheoG]

Personally, I'd like uncharted worlds to be similar to the hub area on Aite, in Overlord - large-ish, not as big as ME1's, lush, pretty, more comprised of... paths, if you like, rather than just a massive open area, stuff to collect, random enemies in the hub area, an N7/UNC type mission, cows, and to be navigated in a Hammerhead 2.0 type vehicle, with much better armour and alternative fire. That would be really good.

[Il Divo]

ZLurps wrote...

What is the point of side missions etc. in any game? Give player freedom, offer different kind of experiences? There is no need in ME1 to do side missions anymore than there is need to do pizza delivery or vigilante missions in GTA.

Except other Bioware games did side missions well, and one reason is that exploration was not necessary to reach the smallest side quest. I say, cut out the weak link. Exploration took up resources without adding anything significant in return. Bioware could have simply cut out all the generic planets and given us another Noveria/Virmire.

[ZLurps]

Il Divo wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

What is the point of side missions etc. in any game? Give player freedom, offer different kind of experiences? There is no need in ME1 to do side missions anymore than there is need to do pizza delivery or vigilante missions in GTA.

Except other Bioware games did side missions well, and one reason is that exploration was not necessary to reach the smallest side quest. I say, cut out the weak link. Exploration took up resources without adding anything significant in return. Bioware could have simply cut out all the generic planets and given us another Noveria/Virmire.

Or maybe not another Virmire or major mission world but better textures to existing ones.


While I think balance between exploration and actual mission worlds could have been better in ME1, I think that would be throwing the baby with the washwater like it was said earlier.

I must add to the above that I think there is more than what I wrote in earlier post why there are variety in mission even in very basic first person shooters.
For example there are sequences where player is firing a machine gun on the back of jeep, or in a role of tail gunner in a bommer, etc. basically rail shooter experiences.

These are in games to hide the fact that player is basically doing the same thing over and over again. run, shoot, take cover. When player gets few normal corridor shooting maps done, there is tailgunner map, or aeroplane/UFO map and then player wonders, uh, what is.. ah, this kind of thing, and is fresh to continue doing more same thing run, shoot, take cover routine again, this time in map where colour palette is white (snow) and there are more hills.

Then different things appeal to different folks. Like we have seen in this thread and numerous others, there are people who really like exploration, and people who don't. Same way someone could find driving a tank in WW2 shooter funny, but other could hate it. IMO, It's all about balancing things. I remember there was a thread in ME2 forums where several people (who didn't looked like they were trolling) told how they liked mining mini game in ME2. Go figure...

[HunterX6]

AlanC9 wrote...

How about having none of this at all?

I mean, really. The final war with the Reapers has started, and Shepard's running around on barren worlds?

it has been confirned by bioware employees that you WOULD be able to continue the story of mass effect 3 after you are done with the main story just like you can in mass effect 2. That means that they can add extra mission like they said, though that might change, which I hope NOT. I hate it when you cant continue in a game where you finish the maint story.

[elitecom]

In Exile wrote...
Why would old, defunct space garbage work? It's like saying the allies should treasure hunt in the pyramids in the hope of finding an anti-Rommel super weapon.

You mean like the Citadel and the Mass Relays? They're old albeit not garbage. Who knows, by exploring planet X who knows what ancient secrets you could find. 

Il Divo wrote...
Except other Bioware games did side missions well, and one reason is that exploration was not necessary to reach the smallest side quest. I say, cut out the weak link. Exploration took up resources without adding anything significant in return. Bioware could have simply cut out all the generic planets and given us another Noveria/Virmire.

Exploration added quite a lot I must say. It added more atmosphere and immersion(i.e. back story) to an already quite credible universe. Also more experience points, money, resources to aid the Alliance, and another side to the galaxy.

Besides I  believe Bioware said that newcomers would be receiving the full fledged Mass Effect experience in ME3, exploration is part of that experience.

Modifié par elitecom, 28 juin 2011 - 09:41 .

[Commander Shep4rd]

GOD YES! make it return

[In Exile]

ZLurps wrote...
I must add to the above that I think there is more than what I wrote in earlier post why there are variety in mission even in very basic first person shooters.
For example there are sequences where player is firing a machine gun on the back of jeep, or in a role of tail gunner in a bommer, etc. basically rail shooter experiences.

Just because other FPS have terrible gimmick gameplay doesn't mean ME needs it too.

These are in games to hide the fact that player is basically doing the same thing over and over again. run, shoot, take cover. When player gets few normal corridor shooting maps done, there is tailgunner map, or aeroplane/UFO map and then player wonders, uh, what is.. ah, this kind of thing, and is fresh to continue doing more same thing run, shoot, take cover routine again, this time in map where colour palette is white (snow) and there are more hills.

Instead of hiding your terrible level desgin with gimmick content (vehicles!), the better solution is to have varied level design (multiple paths, 3D levels).

Then different things appeal to different folks. Like we have seen in this thread and numerous others, there are people who really like exploration, and people who don't. Same way someone could find driving a tank in WW2 shooter funny, but other could hate it. IMO, It's all about balancing things. I remember there was a thread in ME2 forums where several people (who didn't looked like they were trolling) told how they liked mining mini game in ME2. Go figure...

No, it's all aout getting value for their money. Until you start paying me to play ME3, I'm perfectly entitled to argue for the kind of game I want to the exclusion of everyone else.

[In Exile]

elitecom wrote...
You mean like the Citadel and the Mass Relays? They're old albeit not garbage. Who knows, by exploring planet X who knows what ancient secrets you could find.

You mean, technology that's deliberately left working for you? They were designed to last, and to be recovered by other races, and to be easily translatable.

Exploration added quite a lot I must say. It added more atmosphere and immersion(i.e. back story) to an already quite credible universe. Also more experience points, money, resources to aid the Alliance, and another side to the galaxy.

How exactly did those empty garbage worlds add lore? And now you're using nonsence like experience points?

[elitecom]

In Exile wrote...

elitecom wrote...
You mean like the Citadel and the Mass Relays? They're old albeit not garbage. Who knows, by exploring planet X who knows what ancient secrets you could find.

You mean, technology that's deliberately left working for you? They were designed to last, and to be recovered by other races, and to be easily translatable.

Yeah just like many of the artefacts you could discover on the UNC missions, the Porthean Ruins are another example or the Prothean Beacons. They're there to be found and used, that could be case of other species as well.

In Exile wrote...
How exactly did those empty garbage worlds add lore? And now you're using nonsence like experience points?

All right I'll tell you, the sidequests League of One, Turian Insignias, mysteries, and many of the other sidequests added another face to the galaxy(they even got you Codex entries thereby they added lore). Out in the Traverse you encountered mercenaries and pirates, and you got to see that side of the galaxy. What they were up to and how they worked. You also got the oppurtunity sometimes to explore Prothean Ruins, something which I hope return to ME3(This time though I hope you can explore more than just Prothean ruins). The ability to explore ancient ruins. All of this added some type of backstory to the game, to as I said enhance the credibility to an already quite credible universe. Anyways you see I think that Bioware did a great job with the atmosphere and the lore on the UNC missions.

Oh yes you bet I use XP, that's what you could gain a lot of, and is that the problem here? The fact that you gained a lot of XP from this? Well exploration is optional, if you don't like to just do the mission worlds and start a new game with the same character and do it all over again. You know that's what I just love about Mass Effect, you've so much freedom to play the game how you want to play it.