447 réponses à ce sujet

[Kakistos_]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@InvincibleHero - which is a terrible flaw in nearly all RPG game design for NPCs.

Samara - and all the characters - should have friendships outside of Shepard (or Hawke, etc). And those friends should notice something VERY wrong with "Samara".

That - and her little midnight snacking on crew members issue.

What would you have them do? Shepard could just as easily kill them unchallenged as a spectre. Is Garrus going to sniper you in the back and maybe doom the galaxy? What can Kelly do? Reprot suspicion to Illusive Man who would say MYOB. 

Samara wasn't with the crew long and seems to isolate herself and try to remain enigmatic at the same time. She would be hard to befriend and she seems the type to not want or need any. She has been a loner close to 1000 years after all.

Well the snacking part hasn't happened and Morinth says it is under control. It is only an issue if BW decides to make it one.

Samara is a Justicar. She is probably as famous among Asari as Shepard is among humans. Morinth will not stay in this facade forever and someone will note Samara's disappearance and be lead straight to Shepard who is a known companion. The Squad may not turn against Shepard but they won't trust him/her. I can't imagine any goverments/lawful organizations trusting Shepard WHE they find out but the Reapers are a priority. Shepard will probably face his/her consequences in the epilogue.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

But Clarice Starling ran off with Hannibal Lecter at the end of the book. I could see this for the pure renegade Shepard. They are both cold blooded killers.

I took Morinth once just to unlock Dominate which is a real ammo saver.

Ardat-Yakshi are also a genetic dead end for Asari -- they are sterile.

[silentassassin264]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@stewie1974 - gamers are not mature enough to have any other character. It would be "un-fun"

====

I think it would have been more interesting if Morinth seemed like a junkie. If you got to see her in the stages of needing a "fix" - then I think that would have been great.

I would have given you a story where you're tracking down Morinth and her young lady-friend. You are trying to save the girl from Morinth - when you see them at the bar. She seems "controlled" but "losing it".

When you track her down to her apartment - you find her feasting, and as she is doing so... she screams and pushes the body away and crawls into a corner.

As if - after feasting, she wakes up and realizes who she is.

====

I would have made Samara "cold" to this - determined to kill her. Standing over this pathetic figure huddled in the corner prepared to crush the life out of her with biotics.

Then, Shepard has some choices:

Renegade Interrupt: "Do it Samara, she's not your daughter - she's an animal."
Paragon Interrupt: "Samara - let's take her in, put her in cryo. If you still feel you "have" to do this - then lets do it humanely."

Or:

Paragon Option: "I can't let you do this Samara. I know what you've said - and I know what she's done - but there has to be another way."

Renegade Option: "You're a sick **** Samara. You want to clean up your little mess, but you can't. I won't let you."

Then a fight ensues between Shepard and Samara:

Renegade Interrupt: Shepard draws a pistol while they struggle. Shoots Samara in the chest.

Paragon Interrupt: Shepard draws his pistol and pistol-whips Samara into unconsciousness. Picks up Morinth and leaves."

====

There would be more to it, but that's the general gist of how I would have taken this.

I thought I was the only one who wished they had done this.  I would have much preferred to take Morinth to be arrested than kill her.  The whole killing her for a genetic defect kind of rubs even my paragon Sheps the wrong way. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Kakistos_ wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@InvincibleHero - which is a terrible flaw in nearly all RPG game design for NPCs.

Samara - and all the characters - should have friendships outside of Shepard (or Hawke, etc). And those friends should notice something VERY wrong with "Samara".

That - and her little midnight snacking on crew members issue.

What would you have them do? Shepard could just as easily kill them unchallenged as a spectre. Is Garrus going to sniper you in the back and maybe doom the galaxy? What can Kelly do? Reprot suspicion to Illusive Man who would say MYOB. 

Samara wasn't with the crew long and seems to isolate herself and try to remain enigmatic at the same time. She would be hard to befriend and she seems the type to not want or need any. She has been a loner close to 1000 years after all.

Well the snacking part hasn't happened and Morinth says it is under control. It is only an issue if BW decides to make it one.

Samara is a Justicar. She is probably as famous among Asari as Shepard is among humans. Morinth will not stay in this facade forever and someone will note Samara's disappearance and be lead straight to Shepard who is a known companion.

Or Justicar Samara is seen leaving the ship on a suitably
worthy place like, oh, Omega, as testifiable by just about everyone on
Shepard's crew, and then dies a tragic death soon after in the line of
duty. Unfortunately the body is never found.

Besides that Justicars are famous by their title, not their person (or that's certainly how Samara was treated), it's not that hard to fake a death in a way that doesn't implicate Shepard. Justicars are famous for their willingness to die despite the odds, not their inability to bite off more than they can take.

The Squad may not turn against Shepard but they won't trust him/her.

You realize that not a single member of the squad loses trust in Shepard for any combination of a number of far more serious crimes, grievances, and even personal betrayals, yes?

We're talking about the same group of people who are just equally peachy between a homicidal xenophobic racist who viciously left the Galactic Council to die OR a moralizing zealot who's repeatedly allowed and encouraged great galactic risks, and despite treatment of other party members.

I can't imagine any goverments/lawful organizations trusting Shepard WHE they find out but the Reapers are a priority. Shepard will probably face his/her consequences in the epilogue.

And the same applies even more.

Shepard leading galactic coups, working with terrorists, releasing Rachni, and doing any number of Big Choices... that's tolerable, but killing a warrior-monk? Unforgivable!

[ryoldschool]

To the OP - "she" is a serial killer, sick or not she should not be taking in air anymore. Anyone who let her live is evil. Law officer or Serial Killer - not a tough choice. All playthroughs, even renegade, always took Samara. Anyone who defends Morinth does not understand justice.

[Dean_the_Young]

Anyone who disagrees does not understand justice.

Justice is about doing what a bunch of laws say, no matter the context. If I do it in the scope of my laws, I am always Just because I am doing it in the scope of my laws. Anyone who disagrees with me is wrong, and if they cross me or try to stop me they are Unjust and so I can kill them because that is Just because it is according to my laws.

[ryoldschool]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Anyone who disagrees does not understand justice.

Justice is about doing what a bunch of laws say, no matter the context. If I do it in the scope of my laws, I am always Just because I am doing it in the scope of my laws. Anyone who disagrees with me is wrong, and if they cross me or try to stop me they are Unjust and so I can kill them because that is Just because it is according to my laws.

??? Its not my definition of Justice.  Serial killers anywhere on this planet are dangerous to society, the only time they are not executed is when they ARE the government.

[nhsk]

"There is no H. and Younger... there's only victory and defeat. The winner gets to take the moral high-ground, because they get to write the history books. The loser... just loses. The only miscalculation in your plan... was me."

Thinking that line perfectly describes "justice"

Modifié par nhsk, 15 juillet 2011 - 12:29 .

[dreman9999]

ryoldschool wrote...

To the OP - "she" is a serial killer, sick or not she should not be taking in air anymore. Anyone who let her live is evil. Law officer or Serial Killer - not a tough choice. All playthroughs, even renegade, always took Samara. Anyone who defends Morinth does not understand justice.

Can't that be said for Samara as well? And also, if you thinkkilling her is the ideal of justice then you clearly don't understand what Justice is.

[Medhia Nox]

@Dreman9999 - you think that of all cops and soldiers?

Is anyone who believes in what they're doing (and is doing something worth believing in) just a sick serial killer to you?

Do you really see no difference between John Wayne Gacy - and your local law enforcement?

[dreman9999]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Dreman9999 - you think that of all cops and soldiers?

Is anyone who believes in what they're doing (and is doing something worth believing in) just a sick serial killer to you?

Do you really see no difference between John Wayne Gacy - and your local law enforcement?

I never said killing in general is wrong. Just Samara can be see in the same light as a serial killer. The thing is, with her regardless of whether or not the target can fight back, if she feel they must die...they die. Soldier and Cops don't exsicut down and out opponents like how Samara killed the Merc that was under her foot the first time you met her. I don't think someone fighting for what they beleive in is a sick serial killer(Though Samara is real a Justicar just because she does not want to back down from killing Mordith.) but I do understand the the limits of the consept of Killing and Murder. I understand they are many justified reason to kill Morith.(Heck, I killed her 5 out of 6 time because I felt she was just too dangerouse.) But to call her evil is talking it too far.

[Geeblerful]

dreman9999 wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Dreman9999 - you think that of all cops and soldiers?

Is anyone who believes in what they're doing (and is doing something worth believing in) just a sick serial killer to you?

Do you really see no difference between John Wayne Gacy - and your local law enforcement?

I never said killing in general is wrong. Just Samara can be see in the same light as a serial killer. The thing is, with her regardless of whether or not the target can fight back, if she feel they must die...they die. Soldier and Cops don't exsicut down and out opponents like how Samara killed the Merc that was under her foot the first time you met her. I don't think someone fighting for what they beleive in is a sick serial killer(Though Samara is real a Justicar just because she does not want to back down from killing Mordith.) but I do understand the the limits of the consept of Killing and Murder. I understand they are many justified reason to kill Morith.(Heck, I killed her 5 out of 6 time because I felt she was just too dangerouse.) But to call her evil is talking it too far.

While I wouldn't really call Samara evil, she does seem to kill alot of people in cold blood. Not enough to call her a serial killer though. Also she doesn't wander around killing people for no reason like morinth does. So she can't really be seen as a serial killer.

[dreman9999]

Geeblerful wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Dreman9999 - you think that of all cops and soldiers?

Is anyone who believes in what they're doing (and is doing something worth believing in) just a sick serial killer to you?

Do you really see no difference between John Wayne Gacy - and your local law enforcement?

I never said killing in general is wrong. Just Samara can be see in the same light as a serial killer. The thing is, with her regardless of whether or not the target can fight back, if she feel they must die...they die. Soldier and Cops don't exsicut down and out opponents like how Samara killed the Merc that was under her foot the first time you met her. I don't think someone fighting for what they beleive in is a sick serial killer(Though Samara is real a Justicar just because she does not want to back down from killing Mordith.) but I do understand the the limits of the consept of Killing and Murder. I understand they are many justified reason to kill Morith.(Heck, I killed her 5 out of 6 time because I felt she was just too dangerouse.) But to call her evil is talking it too far.

While I wouldn't really call Samara evil, she does seem to kill alot of people in cold blood. Not enough to call her a serial killer though. Also she doesn't wander around killing people for no reason like morinth does. So she can't really be seen as a serial killer.

But Morinth doesn't kill people for no reason ether. It's not like she straps people down and guts them alive. She kills them with her condition, because of her sexual needs. Samara hunt people down who scrap'sthe law. They both can be seen in the same light except for one thing. Morinth
is just following her nature. She's more like a person eating monster
beast than a serial killer. She's more like Jaws, killing because of instincts not total desire. Everything with her killing come from her instict to mate, even if she's sterile. The only truly good reason to killer is just out of fear and relieving
fear, like killing off a Wasp nest. She really can't help but be who
she is, it was ether cut herself off from everything mentally and
physically, kill yourself, or go nut with it. And I don't think many
people here would like to go into forced celibacy. In truth the whole fact that her cursed disease fell on her and her sisters is equally unfair, and I'm empathetic to it......But I do want to live and she is too dangerous so she dies.

[Dean_the_Young]

ryoldschool wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Anyone who disagrees does not understand justice.

Justice is about doing what a bunch of laws say, no matter the context. If I do it in the scope of my laws, I am always Just because I am doing it in the scope of my laws. Anyone who disagrees with me is wrong, and if they cross me or try to stop me they are Unjust and so I can kill them because that is Just because it is according to my laws.

??? Its not my definition of Justice.  Serial killers anywhere on this planet are dangerous to society, the only time they are not executed is when they ARE the government.

Alright, I admit perhaps irony wasn't the appropriate track to take with you...

[dreman9999]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

ryoldschool wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Anyone who disagrees does not understand justice.

Justice is about doing what a bunch of laws say, no matter the context. If I do it in the scope of my laws, I am always Just because I am doing it in the scope of my laws. Anyone who disagrees with me is wrong, and if they cross me or try to stop me they are Unjust and so I can kill them because that is Just because it is according to my laws.

??? Its not my definition of Justice.  Serial killers anywhere on this planet are dangerous to society, the only time they are not executed is when they ARE the government.

Alright, I admit perhaps irony wasn't the appropriate track to take with you...

Try more detail next time....Like.... Justice is the consept of balance order enforec by the person or persons in charge. It's also thatconsept of consequences applied to any wrong doing that is stated by laws or the person or group in charge. The fact is though that they can be laws for anything and can allow authority to get away with anything if their is a law. The consept of Justice is so flexible that it can consently be changed.
The irony of Justice is thatanyone can use it as in their favor.

[InvincibleHero]

Kakistos_ wrote...

[Samara is a Justicar. She is probably as famous among Asari as Shepard is among humans. Morinth will not stay in this facade forever and someone will note Samara's disappearance and be lead straight to Shepard who is a known companion. The Squad may not turn against Shepard but they won't trust him/her. I can't imagine any goverments/lawful organizations trusting Shepard WHE they find out but the Reapers are a priority. Shepard will probably face his/her consequences in the epilogue.

What do they have?  That you knew Samara and were seen with her some time before her death. Morinth's charade provides cover. In fact you can dispose of Morinth and tie up all loose ends. 1. Do they even recover a body? There is a nice garbage chute on N2 and space is pretty big.  Visit Tuchanka and place her body with some krogans and blast away with the Cain no identifiable body. 100s of ways. 2. No timeline for death.
3. Shepard may be spectre (likely) and to accuse one need more than well He was with Samara and no one's seen her for awhile. Guess what Samara has been chasing Morinth for many years and has not been seen much by anyone. 4. No one will find out much less governement entities. 5. I doubt there will be any consequence at all. This is a BW game after all.

[Sainthood85]

Well, saving the ancient sex vampire that kills people via mind rape because she becomes more powerful and finds it fun and potentially having an entire order of immensely powerful biotics hunt you down as a result isnt really an *evil* choice......













.....its just incredibly stupid

Modifié par Sainthood85, 15 juillet 2011 - 04:42 .

[dreman9999]

Sainthood85 wrote...

Well, saving the ancient sex vampire that kills people via mind rape because she becomes more powerful and finds it fun and potentially having an entire order of immensely powerful biotics hunt you down as a result isnt really an *evil* choice......













.....its just incredibly stupid

1. When was it ever state Justicars hunt down Ardat-Yakshi's?
2. Samara became a Justicar because she did not want to lose her never when she finally got the chance to kill Mornith.
3.Telling what happened to Samara is the real stupid part. No one even know what happened on the mission out side of You and Morinth.

[Kakistos_]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Kakistos_ wrote...

[Samara is a Justicar. She is probably as famous among Asari as Shepard is among humans. Morinth will not stay in this facade forever and someone will note Samara's disappearance and be lead straight to Shepard who is a known companion. The Squad may not turn against Shepard but they won't trust him/her. I can't imagine any goverments/lawful organizations trusting Shepard WHE they find out but the Reapers are a priority. Shepard will probably face his/her consequences in the epilogue.

What do they have?  That you knew Samara and were seen with her some time before her death. Morinth's charade provides cover. In fact you can dispose of Morinth and tie up all loose ends. 1. Do they even recover a body? There is a nice garbage chute on N2 and space is pretty big.  Visit Tuchanka and place her body with some krogans and blast away with the Cain no identifiable body. 100s of ways. 2. No timeline for death.
3. Shepard may be spectre (likely) and to accuse one need more than well He was with Samara and no one's seen her for awhile. Guess what Samara has been chasing Morinth for many years and has not been seen much by anyone. 4. No one will find out much less governement entities. 5. I doubt there will be any consequence at all. This is a BW game after all.

You forget that several people in Shepard's own squad know what transpired between Morinth and Samara and can tell the difference between the two and not every member of the crew are close to Shepard as Garrus and Tali are(could be). Cerberus has been spying on Shepard via the Normandy, Miranda and possibly Jacob and there is speculation that Cerberus may be an enemy regardless of actions in ME2. Liara, as the new Shadow Broker is sure to find out. And of course there is Morinth herself. She won't pretend to be her mother forever and who is to say she won't sell out Shepard? She is under no oath, has blatantly stated that she wants to sleep with(kill) Shepard and is hardly trustworthy if not the most dangerous and unpredictable member of the crew.

[Kakistos_]

Lets say, for the sake of argument that the Asari Republic do find out that Shepard killed Samara for Morinth. How do you think they will interact with Shepard in ME3?

[nhsk]

Kakistos_ wrote...

Lets say, for the sake of argument that the Asari Republic do find out that Shepard killed Samara for Morinth. How do you think they will interact with Shepard in ME3?

They will send you an angry email about how they will outfit a squad and hunt you down...

[Kakistos_]

nhsk wrote...

Kakistos_ wrote...

Lets say, for the sake of argument that the Asari Republic do find out that Shepard killed Samara for Morinth. How do you think they will interact with Shepard in ME3?

They will send you an angry email about how they will outfit a squad and hunt you down...

You may actually have a point. I don't think the Asari are above sending in an Assassin or three but I doubt they will openly challenge Shepard with the Reapers looming overhead.

[bucyrus5000]

I tried Morinth on 1 run. Her dominate was less effective than Reave, so I ditched her and reloaded the save. Definitely an interesting character, her voice actor is fantastic too.

[Kakistos_]

bucyrus5000 wrote...

I tried Morinth on 1 run. Her dominate was less effective than Reave, so I ditched her and reloaded the save. Definitely an interesting character, her voice actor is fantastic too.

Don't het me started on "reave" and "dominate". I love that she is arguably one of the darkest things about Mass Effect. Of all the questionable people we pick up in ME2 she, with the exception of Samara is the most powerful and deadly. In my view there is no "good" reason for choosing to save her. With her attraction to Shepard, she presents a greater threat than Samara who may or may not decide to kill you If you cross paths again.