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[WarGriffin]

silentassassin264 wrote...

mybudgee wrote...

This. IMO this kind of decision is the dictionary definition of a Renegade choice. Killing the only person on the normandy who you know you can trust and believe, for what?! A bit of morbid curiosity??

Yeah sure, the only recruitable teammate that promises you that she will kill you (or at least try to) after the mission is over and she is released from the oath.  

WarGriffin wrote...

Killing Samara to spare Morinth is in my opinion like the Rachni choice, dispite all knowledge you can obtain leading into it... the only reason you picked Morinth or Killing the Queen is.. your an evil SoB to begins with.

The rachni queen is a direct clone with all the memories thus making her the reincarnation of a warrior queen that tried to destroy all other races in the galaxy.  Her only defense is pretty much "Come on fella, there is no way I am trying to be omnicidal again."  There is absolutely no reason to trust that an omnicidal maniac is going to be good just because they said they would.  Just because the writers prefer all the paragon choices to be guilt-free does not mean the renegade choice was evil.

Except your throwing out all the information leading up to the choice and what was in the conversation... IE: "You want it dead just because you can kill it" Which is entirely a problem with the Renegade option with it... It's literally blood lust Bloodlust and more Bloodlust, Heck Wrex whose usually not so token evil, makes the most hypocritical arguement as to why you should kill The Queen.

Yes the Rachni are portrayed as little more then animals that can build ships... yet the Queen actaully talks too you and tries to reason with you. Instantly flies in the face of the idea that Rachni are blood letting bugs.

The entire time the Rachni on the loose We are told it's not becasue of the queen, but they fact the scientist have been trying to make them bio weapons and they are rampaging without anything to control them, Hell even the Queen tells you to wipe out what's left of her brainwashed children. The Queen is effectively the victim here.

If you take into account that the Sour note the Rachni Queen speaks of that drove them in the war, epecially if you went to Feros and had that conversation about Indoctrination. It seems that the Rachni were victims of Harbinger's plans.

and more so... The kicker is ME2 completely supports the idea that the Rachni were manipulated and without the Reapers screwing with them, are quite content to be peaceful but will repay Shepard's kindness.


Also, every Rachni battle in ME1 is because of twisted made sciene manipulating a Queen. Namely Cerberus trying out there new pets.

[silentassassin264]

Except you are making up straw man arguments to make an inane point. Your "you want it dead just because you can kill it" is something you made up and has nothing to do anything at all. First of all, not all renegades are the same and can have varying motives for their actions. Second of all, not everyone who kills the Rachni Queen has to even be a renegade.

Second of all you are leaving out a very VERY big caveat. The rachni Queen on Noveria is a clone with all the memories and experiences, thus making it a reincarnation, of an omnicidal murderous war queen. Your point that it can talk or has intelligence is moronic. Morinth can talk and is quite intelligent and you were just crucifying her. Intelligence =/= good.

Thirdly, the problem in Binary Helix's labs has nothing to do with the fact that you are talking to an omnicidal war criminal. The crazed children were all Saren's doing but it is not about their crimes, it is about hers.

Fourth, who cares about her defense about trying to take over the galaxy? If you have a murderer who is trying desperately to escape, of course they are going to try and deflect the blame to seem innocent. You have no proof about the rachni being indoctrinated in the Rachni Wars other than the word of the murderer trying to escape. If that convinces you then you are incredibly naive and gullible. There is literally nothing stopping the Rachni queen from pleading innocence for you to pick the paragon option and then casting stasis on your whole party and impaling you all giving you a nonstandard game over like having sex with Morinth as she begins to build her army of vengeance on the galaxy. The only reason the paragon option is the "right" option is because you have metagamed and know in ME2 that it all turns out gravy for paragons.

The practical option is to kill the queen because you put a whole lot on faith that the reincarnation of a murderous war queen is just going to keep her word and stay peaceful. Sure you could kill her because you are a violent sociopath but don't make up stuff like you have to have bloodlust to kill her when the Turian councilor's rebuke if you spare her has merit even if he is a jerk. If you let her go and she doesn't keep her word, with the Krogan sterilized (and unlikely to help the council again anyway) you have doomed the entire galaxy.

Modifié par silentassassin264, 12 janvier 2012 - 04:52 .

[WarGriffin]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Except you are making up straw man arguments to make an inane point. Your "you want it dead just because you can kill it" is something you made up and has nothing to do anything at all. First of all, not all renegades are the same and can have varying motives for their actions. Second of all, not everyone who kills the Rachni Queen has to even be a renegade.

Second of all you are leaving out a very VERY big caveat. The rachni Queen on Noveria is a clone with all the memories and experiences, thus making it a reincarnation, of an omnicidal murderous war queen. Your point that it can talk or has intelligence is moronic. Morinth can talk and is quite intelligent and you were just crucifying her. Intelligence =/= good.

Thirdly, the problem in Binary Helix's labs has nothing to do with the fact that you are talking to an omnicidal war criminal. The crazed children were all Saren's doing but it is not about their crimes, it is about hers.

Fourth, who cares about her defense about trying to take over the galaxy? If you have a murderer who is trying desperately to escape, of course they are going to try and deflect the blame to seem innocent. You have no proof about the rachni being indoctrinated in the Rachni Wars other than the word of the murderer trying to escape. If that convinces you then you are incredibly naive and gullible. There is literally nothing stopping the Rachni queen from pleading innocence for you to pick the paragon option and then casting stasis on your whole party and impaling you all giving you a nonstandard game over like having sex with Morinth as she begins to build her army of vengeance on the galaxy. The only reason the paragon option is the "right" option is because you have metagamed and know in ME2 that it all turns out gravy for paragons.

The practical option is to kill the queen because you put a whole lot on faith that the reincarnation of a murderous war queen is just going to keep her word and stay peaceful. Sure you could kill her because you are a violent sociopath but don't make up stuff like you have to have bloodlust to kill her when the Turian councilor's rebuke if you spare her has merit even if he is a jerk. If you let her go and she doesn't keep her word, with the Krogan sterilized (and unlikely to help the council again anyway) you have doomed the entire galaxy.

Your entire thought process screams " All suspects are guilty, cause they wouldn't be suspects if they weren't"

[Shotokanguy]

Wow, this topic is still around?

Has anyone managed to find some really good justification for killing Samara? I still haven't gotten through ME2 with my Renegade, so I still have time to decide if I'm going to get Morinth.

If there was just some hidden dialogue somewhere in the game you can access before her loyalty mission that makes a Renegade go "Whoa, **** you!"

[Relix28]

Half of the ME2 squaddies (inluding Samara & Morinth) were basically irrelevant to the main plot of ME, so I expect nothing more than a short cameo or an e-mail concerning that.

[silentassassin264]

Do you not understand what the Rachni Queen was? The whole plot point about her existing in the first place was because it was a Rachni Queen that was trying to kill everyone in the Rachni War reborn and she had the knowledge of the Mu relay's location because she was alive then. She is a war criminal. She is not just a suspect, she is the violent murderer back from the dead. There is no guesswork or assumption involved. If you want to go Paragon, fine but don't ignore all the evidence to support the Renegade option just because "ZOMG PArAgoNS RUle!111!!".

And the only reason I can give you Shotokanguy to kill Samara is that if you are a Renegade, she promises to kill you after the mission which means getting a drop on her then and replacing her someone with no reason to kill you would be advantageous. You don't even have to be a psychotic kindred spirits with Morinth renegade. As long as your Renegade bar is over your Paragon bar, she says she would have to kill you when released from the oath. Morinth has no reason to kill you besides for sex and you have to literally be asking for it.

[Mike Shepard]

wow I thought this was about Morinth?
anyway, I usually (all but one or two times, and i don't intend on importing those saves, mostly because i modded out heavy weps) I killed Morinth; the first time, I actually had insufficient Renegade/Paragon points to resist her, and Samara just toasted her. I consider killing an Asari that is a representation of goodness and a Defender of the Innocent (or more accurately: allowing her to be brutally killed by her daughter) is a Renegade action. I play Renegade style, but prefer to not be that evil.

[Kakistos_]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Do you not understand what the Rachni Queen was? The whole plot point about her existing in the first place was because it was a Rachni Queen that was trying to kill everyone in the Rachni War reborn and she had the knowledge of the Mu relay's location because she was alive then. She is a war criminal. She is not just a suspect, she is the violent murderer back from the dead. There is no guesswork or assumption involved. If you want to go Paragon, fine but don't ignore all the evidence to support the Renegade option just because "ZOMG PArAgoNS RUle!111!!".

And the only reason I can give you Shotokanguy to kill Samara is that if you are a Renegade, she promises to kill you after the mission which means getting a drop on her then and replacing her someone with no reason to kill you would be advantageous. You don't even have to be a psychotic kindred spirits with Morinth renegade. As long as your Renegade bar is over your Paragon bar, she says she would have to kill you when released from the oath. Morinth has no reason to kill you besides for sex and you have to literally be asking for it.

The Rachni Queen in question was an egg during the Rachni Wars. She was not a clone and it is heavily implied that the Rachni were being manipulated by a Reaper, most likely Sovereign. This is not a fair comparison TO THE TOPIC: MORINTH because we know in hindsight that sparing the Rachni Queen was a good idea as she will be a powerful ally against the Reapers.

[Kakistos_]

Relix28 wrote...

Half of the ME2 squaddies (inluding Samara & Morinth) were basically irrelevant to the main plot of ME, so I expect nothing more than a short cameo or an e-mail concerning that.

Perhaps you are right but I would LOVE to see the backlash from killing Samara. This SHOULD be huge considering both Samara and Morinth's standing among the Asari and that we may be interacting with many important Asari characters like Liara.

[BlueMagitek]

Why would it be huge? Samara herself says there aren't a lot of Justicar, and most Asari that we have met seem to be embarrassed of them, even if they accept their judgment.

[Eudaemonium]

As I'm sure people have mentioned countless times, if you are Renegade then Samara actually states that she will track you down and kill you once released from her oath. That alone is one reason to potentially choose Morinth, whom Shepard may believe s/he can control or at least take out at an appropriate time. Whether that is good motivation is up to the individual, it is entirely possible that Morinth's extreme individualistic behaviour may jeoparadise the unit cohesion necessary to complete the suicide mission, and thus keeping Samara may be the best choice even if she has promised to try and kill you later.

Personally, I have major issues with Samara's 'You are a disease to be purged, nothing more!' logic vis-a-vis killing Morinth, but it is never enough to convince me to side with Morinth over Samara. If Morinth wasn't a homicidal sex murderer, I might feel differently. I might have felt very differently if we had met Morinth not long after she fled imprisonment, where she might have come across as a more sympathetic figure battling against an injustice and hadn't been transformed into a hardened killer.

[GodWood]

They're both murderous parasitic space harpies so I simply decided to go with Morinth because:

~ At least she's not a hypocritical **** about it.
~ She hates Samara's stupid get up.
~ Her voice is better.
~ And she likes chess.

[RogueState]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Do you not understand what the Rachni Queen was? The whole plot point about her existing in the first place was because it was a Rachni Queen that was trying to kill everyone in the Rachni War reborn and she had the knowledge of the Mu relay's location because she was alive then. She is a war criminal. She is not just a suspect, she is the violent murderer back from the dead. There is no guesswork or assumption involved. If you want to go Paragon, fine but don't ignore all the evidence to support the Renegade option just because "ZOMG PArAgoNS RUle!111!!".

And the only reason I can give you Shotokanguy to kill Samara is that if you are a Renegade, she promises to kill you after the mission which means getting a drop on her then and replacing her someone with no reason to kill you would be advantageous. You don't even have to be a psychotic kindred spirits with Morinth renegade. As long as your Renegade bar is over your Paragon bar, she says she would have to kill you when released from the oath. Morinth has no reason to kill you besides for sex and you have to literally be asking for it.

At the risk of sounding like a douche I have to say, do you know what the Rachni Queen was?

It's specifically stated by the Russian dude whose name I forget and Han Olar that the Queen was found as an egg on a derelict Rachni ship in stasis. She is not a war criminal and wasn't around when the Rachni Wars were raging on the galaxy. The reason she knows about the Mu relay and about what happend is because the Rachni have genetic race memory which is also specifically stated in game, making the Queen an innocent victim, not a murderous war criminal! I'm not saying it's wrong to kill her if you decide to go that way but it's not naive to believe she just wants to rebuild her race either!

But to stay on topic, I too am very intrigued to see what role if any Morinth will play in ME3, although I only have one save with Morinth in it and I felt super evil killing Samarra for no good reason even though I was playing a sociopathic renedouche Shep!

[angry_peon]

What I find interesting, is how many Renegades blame Samara for being a cold, heartless killer, bringing justice without asking questions or showing mercy or remorse, while doing exactly the same thing over and over again.
What you did not use the renegade interrupt to push the non-combatant merc out of the window, him being as well as unarmed (gun on his back, at gunpoint of three people)?
Also do not forget that all Eclipse mercs have to commit at least one murder to be initiated into the gang. So the merc Samara kills can not be an innocent victim.

Anyway, when it comes down to it, it is not even worth a second thought. Morinth, while not chosing to be the way she is, is a terrible and evil creature.
Being addicted to hunting and killing people is one thing (and reason enough to stop her, though I would also prefer non lethal methods to do so), but:

A) She did have the choice to live a peaceful, yet restricted life, which sucks of course, but when you know the other option is being forced to to hunt down and killing people, accepting custody would still be the only thing a morally sound being would do. How is being forced to kill, in any sense of the word, being "free" anyway?

and Corrupting an entire village to be revered as a goddess and having children sacrificed to her, is going into the cartoony evil, just for the heck of it, territory. In fact, I don't even know why Bioware put this fact in the game, because it makes the "choice" an absolute no brainer in my book. And even if I play a renegade I could never chose this deranged, vile creature as a companion.
Because my goal would still be saving the galaxy and unleashing a Morinth that constantly grows in strength... Perhaps the galaxy would be better off with the Reapers... 

It's like giving me the choice between Judge Dredd and Charles Manson (of whom, I am almost sure, Bioware took some inspiration when writing Morinth. With him being a charismatic figure, creating a commune of depraved beings who followed him on his murder spree, revering him as a messiah and so forth).

Modifié par Varhjhin, 12 janvier 2012 - 03:08 .

[Ice Cold J]

Kakistos_ wrote...

For the sake of argument lets say that Shepard chose Morinth over Samara. Shepard is a dead man/woman. The Justicars and Asari Republic will eventually learn of Samara's death, investigate and be lead to Morinth and Shepard. I don't think even a Reaper could survive the backlash of helping an Ardat-Yakshi kill a Justicar becoming common knowledge. Also several members of Shepard's crew noticed/knew something was up(Kasumi, Joker, Kelly). How will the team dynamic change when the crew learns that Shepard betrayed a squad mate in a critical moment? How will this all shift if Morinth returnes as a squad mate in ME3? If she continues her pursuit of Shepard and other crew members? Will the Squad/crew tolerate this? What will Liara think? Discuss.

How will they learn of Samara's death? Justicars work alone, answer to no one, and travel the galaxy. "Samara" might be off on some mission somewhere she's not heard from for a long time.
Joker, Kelly, Kasumi, and, actually Grunt (Morinth and Grunt on Tuchanka, Morinth has an observation to make as herself, to which Grunt responds). Joker wouldn't care/couldn't do anything about it. Same with Kelly, who may be dead. Kasumi isn't on the team anymore. And Grunt wouldn't care either. Besides, they ALL owe Shepard, so why would they mistrust his decision when he's saved all their lives or helped them with a task or find a purpose?
Alas, I doubt Samara or Morinth will be anything more than a temporary squadmate in ME3, so I doubt it would affect the game much, if at all. If it's Morinth instead of Samara, she'd want to keep her cover so others wouldn't come after her.

[Medhia Nox]

I want Shepard to walk in on Morinth and his/her LI - and Morinth is leaning over the love interest which is a dessicated husk... and Morinth says.

Morinth: I get what you saw in him/her.

[BlueMagitek]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I want Shepard to walk in on Morinth and his/her LI - and Morinth is leaning over the love interest which is a dessicated husk... and Morinth says.

Morinth: I get what you saw in him/her.

Lonely Shep wins again. ~_^

[LexXxich]

The trouble with Morinth is that when we investigate her deal on Omega we see a naive human girl being "recruited" into a "lifestyle" of drugs, parties and self-destructive sex by a predatory female. Does that remind you of anything?

[AgentMrOrange]

I would love to see the asari reactions to this decision. whether that it makes them hard to recruit or causes more justaicars to come after you (I really want to fight them) or it makes other teammate hate/fear you, how about liara refuse to join up or it makes her leave maybe she become very protective of shep when morinth is around

[silentassassin264]

Varhjhin wrote...

What I find interesting, is how many Renegades blame Samara for being a cold, heartless killer, bringing justice without asking questions or showing mercy or remorse, while doing exactly the same thing over and over again.
What you did not use the renegade interrupt to push the non-combatant merc out of the window, him being as well as unarmed (gun on his back, at gunpoint of three people)?
Also do not forget that all Eclipse mercs have to commit at least one murder to be initiated into the gang. So the merc Samara kills can not be an innocent victim.

I blame Samara for that because she does exactly what a renegade does and then promises to kill you for being a renegade.  She is a gigantic hypocrite a poorly written character.  I argued for the longest that she counted as a renegade herself while others have persuaded me it is a more of a grey and gray area than I was willing to admit but she exclusively caters to paragons while doing all the renegade things.  Threatening to kill me because she is a hypocrite is more than enough ground to dump her for Morinth.

[Darthsam]

"I blame Samara for that because she does exactly what a renegade does and then promises to kill you for being a renegade"

Seriously where did those come from? Samara will kill you if you are evil, not if you are a renegade,actually her own way is pretty much textbook renegade. There is a big difference between renegade and evil, even before MassEffect1 BW has already established the para/rene system is different from BG's good/evil or KOTOR's light/dark, you, as Shepard will always be a hero, either a good cop or bad cop, strict to rules or loose cannon, you will save the day, and BW will never go as far as letting Shepard become a villain. In ME whatever your moral is you WILL destroy Sovereign and save Citadel, in ME2 whatever your moral is you WILL defeat Collectors and end Harbinger's plan, unless you are dead, which makes Samara's death threat pointless anyway. Shepard WILL be the hero who save the galaxy from the Reapers, and Samara will not kill a hero, even if the hero's method is extreme.

[silentassassin264]

If you have a higher Renegade bar than Paragon and talk to her about, she says she will have to kill you after the mission is over and she is released from her oath. The game does not distinguish between evil and renegade. Any "evil" option goes on the renegade bar. And I wouldn't use good cop bad cop because a bad cop can be and is most likely a villain. It is more like The Boy Scout (Superman-esque) hero for Paragon and Wolverine for Renegade. Either way you are always a hero but Samara does not distinguish between that.

My first Shepard was about even paragon and renegade until I destroyed the Geth on Legion's mission. Talking to Samara afterwards had her talking about how she would have to kill me afterwards (after just being fine with me). So, killing a bunch of machines hellbent on destroying all organic life gets Samara threatening to kill me when she had no problem killing an simple Eclipse thug for not telling her information. She is seriously messed up and hypocritical.

And yeah she would totally kill a hero.  She tried to kill Nihlus and was quite proud of it.

Modifié par silentassassin264, 12 janvier 2012 - 11:03 .

[Medhia Nox]

Oh wow, someone opposes the moral view of the main character...

They MUST be ignorant, short sighted, hypocritical, and evil themselves...

====

@silenassassin264 - you do realize you're taking a moral stand on a programming issue right? She didn't decide she had to fight you because you killed robots... she decided she had to kill you because you achieved some arbitrary number of Renegade points.

And you knew Nihilus for about ten minutes...

Let me ask, how many Eclipse thugs did all of our Shepard's kill? Funny how you back up your moral outrage with one example (or even a hundred) - when you play a video game based on wholesale slaughter (and most video games are - but nearly none of them ever discuss their own inherent inconsistency)

You're pissed she said she "would" kill you - and she's an evil, "messed up" , hyprocrite.

DID you kill her instead of Morinth? Seems she made a threat - but you're the one who acted upon it. What does that make you?

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 13 janvier 2012 - 12:52 .