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[Xeranx]

olymind1 wrote...

recruitment in ME3:

Somewhere in a silent dark hole Morith kept restricted. Out of nowhere she hears gunfires, people screaming, suddenly her cell door opens. She sees a figure, but can't make it out right away, until her eyes adjust to the blinding light. Its face full of glowing red scars, its eyes are buring like some kind of creature from hell. With a little bit confused, she tries to focus on the figure. Then she hears a familiar voice: "Morith! I'm here to get you out, there is a job for you!". Silence, only interrupted by the sounds of the dead bodies' dripping blood, when they make their impacts on the floor echoing through the room. A minute later Morith was insulted by the demonic figure: "Don't tell me you forgot how to kill and i came here for nothing!?!". At first she answers eagerly but coldly at the same time: "You know me better then that Shapard!", with a little pause she continues smilingly: "I was birth to kill!". Shepard: "That's Morith i know!! Now let's get the hell out of here!"

needless to say what kind of Shepard was freeing her...

I honestly feel that would be an unfortunate thing to do to her character. If the writers are gung-ho on making her a villain then they'd have to make it work so that she doesn't come off two-dimensional.

Trying to express why Morinth can simply be misjudged because there's very little in the way of incriminating her on just being evil is tiring. So I'm prepared to let people think she's evil incarnate and let it go. The writers for this game sure won't take steps to make her more acceptable (that's if they could do it at all) and I can't fight against that force. She'll be what they want her to be.

Modifié par Xeranx, 10 juillet 2011 - 04:23 .

[olymind1]

Xeranx wrote...

I honestly feel that would be an unfortunate thing to do to her character. If the writers are gung-ho on making her a villain then they'd have to make it work so that she doesn't come off two-dimensional.

Trying to express why Morinth can simply be misjudged because there's very little in the way of incriminating her on just being evil is tiring. So I'm prepared to let people think she's evil incarnate and let it go. The writers for this game sure won't take steps to make her more acceptable (that's if they could do it at all) and I can't fight against that force. She'll be what they want her to be.

What do you mean "making her a villain"? She already IS. She is seducing, drugging people and then kills them, it isn't life threatening to her health if she doesn't do it, but she does it anyway. And i don't have a problem with that, because it is her character, she tasted the violence/killing and never turned back. Even renegade Shepard compliments Morith when she talks to Samara. Morith could be a very good assassin, if she is in the mood for playing with her pray. Also i understand that she wants to be free, even if it means that she would leave a pile of body behind herself. And that also doesn't bother my renegade Shepard.

On the other hand i'm curious what my paragon Shepard is going to say to her he sees her.

[littlezack]

Kakistos_ wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

I doubt anyone would find out as all clues do point to morinth's deah. I went to kill an ardat yakshi and an asari body looking like the ardat yakshi was found exactly where the AY would have been. Morinth imitates samara perfectly and there's no kind of electronic records or eyewitness accounts of the switch. No matter how good cerebus and the shadow broker are, they can't learn stuff like that unless someone talks. I won't talk and unless morinth is an idiot, she won't either.

So they don't do DNA testing and autopsies in 2183?

Not on Omega, they don't.

[In Exile]

If you're a renegade Shepard, Samara pretty much says she'll try to kill you after the SM. Getting rid of her as a headache could make sense. Otherwise, Morinth isn't your problem.

[ReallyRue]

Surely Liara knows that Shepard spared an Ardat-Yakshi and killed a Justicar? Or she finds it out at some point. I mean, the SB knew that Shep had recruited Morinth, so perhaps there is some record of it in the SB's lair. What with Liara being an asari, and one of Shepard's oldest loyal allies, that could be really ugly if it got out.

[Xeranx]

olymind1 wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

I honestly feel that would be an unfortunate thing to do to her character. If the writers are gung-ho on making her a villain then they'd have to make it work so that she doesn't come off two-dimensional.

Trying to express why Morinth can simply be misjudged because there's very little in the way of incriminating her on just being evil is tiring. So I'm prepared to let people think she's evil incarnate and let it go. The writers for this game sure won't take steps to make her more acceptable (that's if they could do it at all) and I can't fight against that force. She'll be what they want her to be.

What do you mean "making her a villain"? She already IS. She is seducing, drugging people and then kills them, it isn't life threatening to her health if she doesn't do it, but she does it anyway. And i don't have a problem with that, because it is her character, she tasted the violence/killing and never turned back. Even renegade Shepard compliments Morith when she talks to Samara. Morith could be a very good assassin, if she is in the mood for playing with her pray. Also i understand that she wants to be free, even if it means that she would leave a pile of body behind herself. And that also doesn't bother my renegade Shepard.

On the other hand i'm curious what my paragon Shepard is going to say to her he sees her.

I don't agree with the idea that Morinth is wholly evil.  There's too much to interpret.  There's a lot that can be made.  In other words, Morinth's personality isn't set like the other personalities on the ship.  Morinth's personality is more fluid.  That, initially, might have been the intended goal, but it crossed over into Morinth being a character that's underdeveloped.  If it was just her then I could express my distaste of it but understand that that's where the writers wanted to go, but since there are inconsistencies within Samara's narrative I can't allow myself to believe that Morinth is entirely evil.  

Getting info about the village after Morinth is dead makes me feel like I'd been had.  Samara shows no mercy to a group of people she, through what is said, acknowledges as innocents.  It makes me wonder if the children also attacked and she just incapacitated them.  If it were to turn out that she just knocked the children unconcious then what exactly am I to believe about that scenario?  Yes, it's meta-gaming, but it allowed me to see that Morinth was so underdeveloped during another run through the game.  It forced me to take Morinth on to see what she was all about because initially I took Samara at her word.  Then I find out that Morinth had no other dialogue beyond what's in-game.  It made me realize that Morinth may not be the only one who would manipulate me to her own ends and since Morinth was forced to honest with me (moreso than I imagine Samara to be considering) I have no reason to believe that Samara is entirely upfront. 

Since then I've saved Morinth in every subsequent run I've done.  When I learned that characters would come back depending on the metrics they were gathering (and I HATE that they're doing that) I started more Shepards than I initially wanted so I could see development of an underdeveloped character.  I gave up on that however because people don't think there's a shred of decency in Morinth.  So I have to expect the worst.  There's no point in hoping for the best in this regard for me.

[Darc_Requiem]

Volus Warlord wrote...

Uh, Morinth is the key to defeating the Reapers.

1.) Shepard plants death chip in Morinth.

2.) Morinth nails the Reapers.

3.) Reapers die.

4.) Shepard hits kill switch.

5.) Morinth dies.

6.) Profit!

Oh you Volus are always thinking about the bottom line

[pablodurando]

 I see a major problem with this thread.  Most of you seem to think Morinth is evil.
I'll show you two examples

• Asari who does whatever it takes to reach her idea of justice, even if it involves killing innocents.  She basically like badass renegade Shepard
• Asari who has been running her whole life with the fear of dying never far behind.  All this because of a mental/genetic condition that she no control over.  All she wants is freedom.

Morally who is the one that you will save.  Morinth has no control over her Ardat Yakshi self.  It's a drug addiction that is impossible to get rid of.  Is she inherently evil, there lies the philosophical question.  

Frankly I'd be glad if the Justicars came after me so I can kill each one and in the process get rid of criminals in their own respect.  I'd be sad if Bioware handles the situation by claiming Morinth to be evil.

Modifié par pablodurando, 10 juillet 2011 - 09:01 .

[The Twilight God]

pablodurando wrote...

Asari who has been running her whole life with the fear of dying never far behind.  All this because of a mental/genetic condition that she no control over.  All she wants is freedom.

Morally who is the one that you will save.  Morinth has no control over her Ardat Yakshi self.  It's a drug addiction that is impossible to get rid of.  Is she inherently evil, there lies the philosophical question.  

Poor baby. All she wants is the freedom to kill innocent unsuspecting people. Shame on us for siding with Samara who kills criminals and other trash just like Shepard.

When a dog has rabbies, you don't just let it continue to maul children because it has no self control.  There are serial killers her on earth who are addicted to killing. They are compelled to seek this satisfaction. Should we pity them and let them keep doing what they are doing? God, forbid we lock them up. They just want to be free to satisfy their addictions. Who are we to cage them and prevent it. That would be unjust.

Are you kidding me?

And in Asari space, where the Justicars are normally located, the asari revere them. The Code is their law. Say what you will about Samara from a holier-than-thou human perspective, just know that damn near every asari agrees with that Code. And if you see Samara as immoral you view their entire race and culture as immoral. It isn't just a justicar thing no more than our own laws are just a police officer thing.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 10 juillet 2011 - 09:14 .

[littlezack]

And in Asari space, where the Justicars are normally located, the asari revere them. The Code is their law. Say what you will about Samara from a holier-than-thou human perspective, just know that damn near every asari agrees with that Code. 

That last statement might be pushing it. I think the samurai analogy that Samara brings up is very accurate - most Asari respect Justicars and what they represent, but even Samara admits that Justicars represent a way of life that their culture is moving away from.

Modifié par littlezack, 10 juillet 2011 - 09:16 .

[sTrYkZ1LLa]

Yeah morinth isn't evil just because she perverted an entire village to worship her and made them offer children as sacrifices for her. What's so evil about that haha

[medcsu]

If we are going to the Asari homeworld I am sure we see the Ardat Yashi temple. Either will be a reunion with Samara introducing her other daughters, or Morinth trying to free them I guess?

[FictionalBreger]

Samara said "If you make me do anything extremely dishonorable I may have to kill you when I am released from my oath."

I don't interpret that as her saying "I shall keell you Shepard for being EFVIL!!", but more as "Don't make me do evil things, as that goes against my code. Plox?"
I don't think she cares whether you are renegade or paragon, as long as SHE does not have to kill, for example, 300,000 batarians. Or innocent people (can you kill any innocents in ME2? I don't remember)

Modifié par FictionalBreger, 10 juillet 2011 - 09:29 .

[Merchant2006]

sTrYkZ1LLa wrote...

Yeah morinth isn't evil just because she perverted an entire village to worship her and made them offer children as sacrifices for her. What's so evil about that haha

Exactly, heh.

[The Twilight God]

littlezack wrote...

That last statement might be pushing it. I think the samurai analogy that Samara brings up is very accurate - most Asari respect Justicars and what they represent, but even Samara admits that Justicars represent a way of life that their culture is moving away from.

Maybe the common Asari doesn't want to ACTUALLY BE a justicar and make the necessary sacrifices, but they agree with the Code. I agree that that governnor of Illinois commited a crime and I accept that he will do the prescribed jail time. Would I put in in a cage for 20 years considering he isn't a threat to public safety? No. That's overkill from my perspective. But that is the law. You may not think executing murderers is right and may spare them if given the choice, but you would respect the Code regardless nonetheless if you were an asari. 

It is a normal part fo their society and no law abiding asari would question a justicar. It's the asari code, not just the justicars' Code. The justicars simply unhold the Code and it's come to be called the "Justicar Code" because of that.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 10 juillet 2011 - 09:38 .

[AquamanOS]

ReallyRue wrote...

Surely Liara knows that Shepard spared an Ardat-Yakshi and killed a Justicar? Or she finds it out at some point. I mean, the SB knew that Shep had recruited Morinth, so perhaps there is some record of it in the SB's lair. What with Liara being an asari, and one of Shepard's oldest loyal allies, that could be really ugly if it got out.

I don't think Liara would care much, assuming Morinth is dealt with. Liara would know that a Renagade Shepard would be marked for death by a justicar and wouldn't want Shepard to die. Heck her activities as an information broker and the SB would probably mark her as "unjust" as well.

And Liara never seemed to be a hardcore Asari anyway. She opted for a quiet life of scholarly selcusion in her Maiden days rather than exploring as a Commando like most Asari are implied to do. So she's probably not very mindful of their laws.

[littlezack]

The Twilight God wrote...

littlezack wrote...

That last statement might be pushing it. I think the samurai analogy that Samara brings up is very accurate - most Asari respect Justicars and what they represent, but even Samara admits that Justicars represent a way of life that their culture is moving away from.

Maybe the common Asari doesn't want to ACTUALLY BE a justicar and make the necessary sacrifices, but they agree with the Code. I agree that that governnor of Illinois commited a crime and I accept that he will do the prescribed jail time. Would I put in in a cage for 20 years considering he isn't a threat to public safety? No. That's overkill from my perspective. But that is the law. You may not think executing murderers is right and may spare them if given the choice, but you would respect the Code regardless nonetheless if you were an asari. 

It is a normal part fo their society and no law abiding asari would question a justicar. It's the asari code, not just the justicars' Code.

There's a big difference between respecting something and following it. I respect lots of religions beyond my own, and I wouldn't impede anyone's ability to practice their religion so long as it didn't bother me. But I don't believe in their religion, nor does my respect hinge on it. 

And I think it's clear that Asari law and Justicar law clash quite often; we actually witness it happen in the game. The asari cop (can't remember her name) has to put Samara in jail, and Samara's code states that she has to break out of confinement and kill the cop after a set amount of time. That doesn't strike me as the asari code and Justicar code being one and the same.

[littlezack]

FictionalBreger wrote...

Samara said "If you make me do anything extremely dishonorable I may have to kill you when I am released from my oath."

I don't interpret that as her saying "I shall keell you Shepard for being EFVIL!!", but more as "Don't make me do evil things, as that goes against my code. Plox?"
I don't think she cares whether you are renegade or paragon, as long as SHE does not have to kill, for example, 300,000 batarians. Or innocent people (can you kill any innocents in ME2? I don't remember)

I forget exactly what she says, but if you're a Renegade and you try to romance her, she pretty much says that not only is she not interested in you, but if she wasn't under the oath, she would actively be trying to kill you.

[olymind1]

Samara is like a living asari RoboCop: serve the public trust, protect the innocent and uphold the law. Maybe minus the "uphold the law" part.

[The Twilight God]

littlezack wrote...

There's a big difference between respecting something and following it. I respect lots of religions beyond my own, and I wouldn't impede anyone's ability to practice their religion so long as it didn't bother me. But I don't believe in their religion, nor does my respect hinge on it. 

I don't beat my wife. But I respect husbands who do and sit back while a guy beats the living daylight out of his wife in a public park.

Does that make me and everyone else from my neighbors, to my mayor, to my governor, to the senator, the cops, the president and every else inbetween "moral" people for allowing it as long as we don't participate? Meanwhile a man who does beat his wife is "immoral" even though this behavior is culturally accepted?

The Code is not just respected. It IS THE LAW. Not the justicars' law. The asari's law. Most of them may be softies, but that doesn't change the fact that it is their laws. The justicars are just the purest representation of that law. If Asari law disagreed with the Code there would be no justicars.

littlezack wrote...

And I think it's clear that Asari law and Justicar law clash quite often; we actually witness it happen in the game. The asari cop (can't remember her name) has to put Samara in jail, and Samara's code states that she has to break out of confinement and kill the cop after a set amount of time. That doesn't strike me as the asari code and Justicar code being one and the same.

Illium does not fall under asari law. Illium is not an Asari Republic world. As she said, if it were an asari world nobody would even worry about Samara. The problem was that alien governments would not understand and accept Samara's judgement. On an actual Republic would Samara could kill whoever she wanted and no one would bat an eye because Samara (like Judge Dread) has the law on her side. If she kills someone the person must have been on the wrong side of the law. On an Asari Republic no one would dare ask that cop to arrest a justicar. Her boss was probably non-asari.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 10 juillet 2011 - 11:19 .

[Dean_the_Young]

The fact that the Code needed an addendum to specify that Justicars need to respect Asari common law should rather serve as evidence that the Code is not Asari law, but rather the codification of a private group. If the Justicars were the source or basis of Asari law, that wouldn't be necessary. Justicars are just a reflection of a group's interpretation of Asari law, plus the Code.

As a self-created group without government sanction, the Justicars have only as much claim to be the purest representation of Asari law as any other group. That Asari culture tolerates them does not imply anything else but that the Asari culture tolerates them.



Illium is an Asari world as referred to by nearly all the Asari who live on it. The reason that Samara was a considerable risk wasn't because Illium was not an Asari world, but rather simply because Illium was a place non-Asari frequent.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 10 juillet 2011 - 11:40 .

[Dean_the_Young]

luk4s3d wrote...

You will obviously not be able to ask for Justicar support in ME3 if you killed Samara for Morinth, and i cant see Morinth risking her own neck for you.

You realize Morinth voluntarily joined a suicide mission, yes? And fulfilled it just as faithfully as Samara?

The woman's amoral, not cowardly. And she's just as endangered by the Reapers as the rest of the galaxy.

Nothing yet suggests that 'Justicar support' would be a Shepard objective.

Plus Samara says in ME2 "I will come for you Sheppard" if you had a Paragon playthrough.
I dont think she was refering to ME2s climax either, it seemed like there was more to it than that.

Short of alignment-specific content, it could have been an ironic foreshadowing for the aftermath of Arrival...

But that would be too clever for Mass Effect.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 11 juillet 2011 - 12:02 .

[littlezack]

The Twilight God wrote...

littlezack wrote...

There's a big difference between respecting something and following it. I respect lots of religions beyond my own, and I wouldn't impede anyone's ability to practice their religion so long as it didn't bother me. But I don't believe in their religion, nor does my respect hinge on it. 

I don't beat my wife. But I respect husbands who do and sit back while a guy beats the living daylight out of his wife in a public park.

Yeah, that really isn't an adequate analogy. My point was that just because the Asari as a whole respect and honor Justicars, that doesn't make that they're bound by the code. There's nothing that suggests that Justicars are recognized as the official law of Asaris. If that were the case, than most of the Asari we meet would be like Samara.