447 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

ThePwener wrote...

Pleading? The merc was making threats of death. Your obviously insane. Your argument attempts to protect a selfish serial killer. Hope you feel good about yourself.

She was an the ground with a foot on her neck. The merc was no threat to no one. And I didn't finish my statement. I up dated it.

[ThePwener]

You are a piece of work you know that. Debating with you isn't even fun.

Morinth =/= samara = ERROR

By your logic, it's the same to kill for pleasure as it is for justice. You think Morinth's victims die while defending themselves? No, they are mercylessly killed through brainorgasm.

Modifié par ThePwener, 11 juillet 2011 - 11:42 .

[dreman9999]

ThePwener wrote...

You are a piece of work you know that. Debating with you isn't even fun.

Morinth =/= samara = ERROR

By your logic, it's the same to kill for pleasure as it is for justice. You think Morinth's victims die while defending themselves? No, they are mercylessly killed through brainorgasm.

I'm not referring to the death that happen as the result of Samara extending her athority, I'm referring to what happens after. The merc I referance to was way out of the fight and was no danger but killed anyway...... Yet, we lable Samara good because she made the kill in the order of justice......A statement that many times over did so much destuction in human socioty. My statement is that to over look Samara deeds and jugde Mornith alone on hers is short sighted. I saying both their actions in the end result in murder and those becaus e of that, jugment on one can be stated as truely evil should not be simply stated.

[Di-Hydrogen-Monoxide]

Hell I want both Morinth and Samara to die. In my main renegade FemShep I killed Morinth, but I do so hope that Samara comes after me in Mass Effect 3 so I can put a bullet in her head.

They are both sociopathic murderers, one has an addiction and the other has a twisted world view.

[The Twilight God]

pablodurando wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

No, it really is like that the Code binds Justicars, and the Asari laws are a different body of words.

So if a cop is taking a handcuffed suspect in for questioning and a Justicar shows up starts interrogating the suspect. The suspect is being hostile and will not speak. Justicar kills her and says she saw her shoot a victim last month, but she got away at the time. The cop did not have any knowledge of this. What do you think will happen next?

The cop will accept that getting any further information out of the dead suspect will not occur, nod and go about their business.  They will accept the judgement, claims and actions of the justicar as fullfilment of the law. If any random citizen or even another cop did this they would be arrested and would be a full on investigation into her actions. Justicars are governement sanctioned extra-judicial enforcers similar to Judge Dread. 

Justicars and the Code are asari law. The Code is in effect everywhere in Asari space. Local laws are just local laws. It's not so much that The Code is the only laws they have, but the Justicars themselves do what they do legally under the law. I think you may be thinking I'm saying the Code is the totality of asari law and nothing else. I'm sure regular cops follow different procedures and are more accountable for their actions, but like the SPECTREs, the justicars are within their right to do what they do. The law is on their side.

No, the justicar code envelops the asari law but still follows the justicar interpretation of justice.  On Illium detective Anaya says that the she would be forced to arrest Samara because she murdered someone.  That wasn't part of the the asari law but Justicar code says any crime will not go unpunished.  The law is independent of the justicars as evidenced by Anaya arresting Samara even though she did her own version of justice.  In your example if the cop follows asari law then he should arrest the Justicar because she commited a crime.  Corruption is completely unrelated to the justicar situation. 

Illium is not an Asari Republic world. Illium's laws are different from the laws on an Asari Republic world. On an Asari Republic world no one would dare interfer with a Justicar's investigation. Anaya is told to arrest Samara to prevent a diplomatic incident with non-asari. She did not arrest her for killing a group of drug dealing killers. If that was the case she would have had to arrest Shepard too as he did far more killing then Samara. In fact, if the arrest had anything to do with a justicar killing Eclipse she would not have released Samara to Shepard, but would have been forced to try and detain her permanently.

pablodurando wrote...

We tolerate religion, there's a major example. 

The moment we tell a rastafarian he cannot smoke marijuana we are intolerant of their religion.
The moment we tell a mormon he cannot practice polygamy we are intolerant of their faith.
The moment we tell a pakistani muslim immigrant that he cannot kill his fornicating daughter for dishonoring his family we are intolerant of his particular culture. (Not saying that is inherently a muslim or pakistani tradition)

China "tolerates" Christians, but those "christians" aren't actually practicing Christianity. Just like mormons who are not polygamous are not actually practicing mormons. They are just holding on to a meaningless title.

pablodurando wrote...

We tolerate the KKK even though they publicly take credit for lynching of minorities and segregating all non-white races.  Toleration is everywhere.  Whether it is publicly supported or not is a different matter.  Look at the definition of tolerate.

We tolerate today's watered down KKK. And during the time they were a threat they were a socially accepted institution that did not stray far from the popular culture in the south. No KKK member alive today would dare to publicly take credit for a lynching. The KKK of the past is not the KKK of the present. We would not tolerate the KKK of the past today. Simply holding bigoted views does not violate the law.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 12 juillet 2011 - 02:43 .

[The Twilight God]

atheelogos wrote...

Saving Morinth really shouldn't have been an option. It's not even renegade. Its just evil.

And stupid. An unarmed Shepard left alone with murderous unknown with biotics near that of a matriarch and no reason whatsoever to keep her word. Morinth should have been portrayed differently. Perhaps like an actual vampire who has to kill in order to survive. In addtion, her victims should have been less than innocent to provide a real moral dilema.

[Dean_the_Young]

The Twilight God wrote...

The moment we tell a rastafarian he cannot smoke marijuana we are intolerant of their religion.
The moment we tell a mormon he cannot practice polygamy we are intolerant of their faith.
The moment we tell a pakistani muslim immigrant that he cannot kill his fornicating daughter for dishonoring his family we are intolerant of his particular culture. (not saying that is inherently a muslim or pakistani tradition)

Logical fallacy of extremes, actually. You don't have to hold a position for everything in a category order to to hold a position for some of it.

Besides which:

-There is broad cultural acceptance and toleration of pot-smoking, underage drinking, and many other technically illegal vices in the US. Go to college: if you can't find someone who smokes dope and someone else in authority who knows someone who smokes dope, you aren't trying. Legality and cultural acceptance are two different things.

-There is an unspoken acceptance of religious communes and compounts in America. As long as they stay quiet and out of sight, don't get revealed as having broken any more serious crimes, and don't cause trouble, state and federal authorities are known to leave them alone.

-That last one is such a reducta ad absurdum you should feel bad for even making it. It's also such an absurd case of absolute moral relativism that you've nicely undermined your entire basis of giving any judgement or position on any culture because, hey, some other person could have a culture who views it differently and if you don't accept it then you are a horrible intolerant person.

Actually, this little listing in general rather aptly demonstrates your state of mind, which more than a little indicates why it's not going to be worthwhile entertaining you on this topic past this. Toodles.

[Dean_the_Young]

The Twilight God wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

Saving Morinth really shouldn't have been an option. It's not even renegade. Its just evil.

And stupid. An unarmed Shepard left alone with murderous unknown with biotics near that of a matriarch and no reason whatsoever to keep her word.

What reason does anyone have to have keep their word? Samara could just as well pull out obscure Code article 594 sub paragraph 3, how to render Justicar Justice to willing associates of Murder.

Morinth should have been portrayed differently. Perhaps like an actual vampire who has to kill in order to survive. In addtion, her victims should have been less than innocent to provide a real moral dilema.

This we're agreed. Bioware's emotional appeal anvil really misses when they identify 'victim' with 'the one young virginal innocent white girl on an alien space station.'

[Medhia Nox]

Morinth is in trouble AGAIN? *Morinth stands over the husk of a dead lover - innocent "sorry" smile on her face*

OH, Morinth. *Shepard has hands on hips, and shakes her head slowly, but smiles affectionately*

*Shepard looks at the screen* Ardat Yakshi - what are you going to do? *gives pleasant shrug of shoulders*

*audience laughs*

[silentassassin264]

I so imagined that in a Bugs Bunny voice.

[The Twilight God]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

-There is broad cultural acceptance and toleration of pot-smoking, underage drinking, and many other technically illegal vices in the US. Go to college: if you can't find someone who smokes dope and someone else in authority who knows someone who smokes dope, you aren't trying. Legality and cultural acceptance are two different things.

-There is an unspoken acceptance of religious communes and compounts in America. As long as they stay quiet and out of sight, don't get revealed as having broken any more serious crimes, and don't cause trouble, state and federal authorities are known to leave them alone.

-That last one is such a reducta ad absurdum you should feel bad for even making it. It's also such an absurd case of absolute moral relativism that you've nicely undermined your entire basis of giving any judgement or position on any culture because, hey, some other person could have a culture who views it differently and if you don't accept it then you are a horrible intolerant person.

Actually, this little listing in general rather aptly demonstrates your state of mind, which more than a little indicates why it's not going to be worthwhile entertaining you on this topic past this. Toodles.

1. Youth wanting to legalize marijuana does not change anything. It is illegal and not tolerated. There are alot of people who are adamant about keeping marijuana illegal.

2. Just because state and federal authorities don't break down the door of every compound does not mean that people who violate the law are given a pass. It means there is not sufficient evidence to break down that door or the authorities are completely ignorant of what is happening. 

3. You make the erroneous assumption that I believe all cases of intolerance are bad.

[The Twilight God]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

Saving Morinth really shouldn't have been an option. It's not even renegade. Its just evil.

And stupid. An unarmed Shepard left alone with murderous unknown with biotics near that of a matriarch and no reason whatsoever to keep her word.

What reason does anyone have to have keep their word? Samara could just as well pull out obscure Code article 594 sub paragraph 3, how to render Justicar Justice to willing associates of Murder.

Samara has more credibility than a random serial killer on Omega.

Granted, letting Jack, Grunt and Legion  run around the ship as they please doesn't seem to smart either.

Shepard: So you're a good geth?

Legion: Yup

Shepard: You're not lying to me are you?

Legion: Nope.

Shepard: Good enough for me. OK, you're free to enjoy the ship.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 12 juillet 2011 - 04:40 .

[Dean_the_Young]

The Twilight God wrote...

1. Youth wanting to legalize marijuana does not change anything. It is illegal and not tolerated. There are alot of people who are adamant about keeping marijuana illegal.

Spoken like a person who hasn't gone drinking and boozing in a college town.

Not being legal does not mean not tolerated. Governments and police and other authorities often do maintain double standards between what they will do if publicly confronted with something, and what they will allow in a different context. Drug usage on college campuses is actually a pretty good example: authorities know that students do drugs, just like they know underage students buy fake IDs to get into bars. When they want to, they can even find examples of such. But because they can't enforce a standard (arresting one party of underage drinkers doesn't stop the next one), it's quite common for authorities to turn a blind eye to the practice so long as it doesn't get out of hand. A cop in, say, the University of Miami will pull you over for drunk driving in a second and then hit you up if you're underage, but if they see a sober person driving a drunk they won't ask how old that person is (usually).

Double standards between what is legal and what is tolerated exist.

2. Just because state and federal authorities don't break down the door of every compound does not mean that people who violate the law are given a pass. It means there is not sufficient evidence to break down that door or the authorities are completely ignorant of what is happening.

It does mean they tolerated, however lightly. Not happily. Not openly. But that doesn't matter.

3. You make the erroneous assumption that I believe all cases of intolerance are bad.

Too late. Your intolerance of the superiority of my view makes your argument invalid.

[The Twilight God]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Spoken like a person who hasn't gone drinking and boozing in a college town.

Drunk college kids have no relevance in this discussion. Give it a rest.

This conversation is not about citizen responsibility to enforce or agree with the law. As I stated earlier in this thread, not every asari is tasked with upholding the code. But they all fall under it and can be punished under it. The point is not if every single person within a society is an enforcer. The only thing that matters is that if the justicars were not state sanctioned, the authorities would not put up with them. Justicars are following the law. 

It does mean they tolerated, however lightly. Not happily. Not openly.

We have laws against unlawful search and seisure. Not having probable cause is not the same as tolerating a known violator.

Too late. Your intolerance of the superiority of my view makes your argument invalid.

Childishness.

[bobthecrusher]

Bleh, I have a paragon Shepard and (obviously) he sided with Samara, who I view as a much more powerful ally. It's a thousand year old amazingly powerful Justicar or a few hundred year old mentally unstable serial killer that actively tries to murder shepard on board the ship (she seduces Shepard. Alot.)

[Kakistos_]

Truly interesting opinions and points of views on Samara and Morinth. I noticed a lot of Samara hate. My opinion on Samara is that she is not too different from Shepard. They are both tasked with defense and justice and are allowed to go about these task as they see fit, Samara to a lesser extent. Samara has done questionable things in the line of duty but so has Renegade Shepard. The main difference between the two is who they are answerable to. Shepard only answers to the Council who purposefully ignor the details of how Shepard accomplishes his/her missions. Samara has her Code and presumably other Justicar. when it comes down to accountability Samara and Justicars in general are more reliable than Shepard and the SPECTRES who allow room for agents such as Saren and Renegade Shepard.

[stewie1974]

A justicar is just as blunt as a spectre.... not like your character ever played an above the law type who ignored civiilian rights.....

You might be a paragon shep, but always a paragon "above the law"

[Medhia Nox]

@stewie1974 - gamers are not mature enough to have any other character. It would be "un-fun"

====

I think it would have been more interesting if Morinth seemed like a junkie. If you got to see her in the stages of needing a "fix" - then I think that would have been great.

I would have given you a story where you're tracking down Morinth and her young lady-friend. You are trying to save the girl from Morinth - when you see them at the bar. She seems "controlled" but "losing it".

When you track her down to her apartment - you find her feasting, and as she is doing so... she screams and pushes the body away and crawls into a corner.

As if - after feasting, she wakes up and realizes who she is.

====

I would have made Samara "cold" to this - determined to kill her. Standing over this pathetic figure huddled in the corner prepared to crush the life out of her with biotics.

Then, Shepard has some choices:

Renegade Interrupt: "Do it Samara, she's not your daughter - she's an animal."
Paragon Interrupt: "Samara - let's take her in, put her in cryo. If you still feel you "have" to do this - then lets do it humanely."

Or:

Paragon Option: "I can't let you do this Samara. I know what you've said - and I know what she's done - but there has to be another way."

Renegade Option: "You're a sick **** Samara. You want to clean up your little mess, but you can't. I won't let you."

Then a fight ensues between Shepard and Samara:

Renegade Interrupt: Shepard draws a pistol while they struggle. Shoots Samara in the chest.

Paragon Interrupt: Shepard draws his pistol and pistol-whips Samara into unconsciousness. Picks up Morinth and leaves."

====

There would be more to it, but that's the general gist of how I would have taken this.

[AngelicMachinery]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@stewie1974 - gamers are not mature enough to have any other character. It would be "un-fun"

====

I think it would have been more interesting if Morinth seemed like a junkie. If you got to see her in the stages of needing a "fix" - then I think that would have been great.

I would have given you a story where you're tracking down Morinth and her young lady-friend. You are trying to save the girl from Morinth - when you see them at the bar. She seems "controlled" but "losing it".

When you track her down to her apartment - you find her feasting, and as she is doing so... she screams and pushes the body away and crawls into a corner.

As if - after feasting, she wakes up and realizes who she is.

====

I would have made Samara "cold" to this - determined to kill her. Standing over this pathetic figure huddled in the corner prepared to crush the life out of her with biotics.

Then, Shepard has some choices:

Renegade Interrupt: "Do it Samara, she's not your daughter - she's an animal."
Paragon Interrupt: "Samara - let's take her in, put her in cryo. If you still feel you "have" to do this - then lets do it humanely."

Or:

Paragon Option: "I can't let you do this Samara. I know what you've said - and I know what she's done - but there has to be another way."

Renegade Option: "You're a sick **** Samara. You want to clean up your little mess, but you can't. I won't let you."

Then a fight ensues between Shepard and Samara:

Renegade Interrupt: Shepard draws a pistol while they struggle. Shoots Samara in the chest.

Paragon Interrupt: Shepard draws his pistol and pistol-whips Samara into unconsciousness. Picks up Morinth and leaves."

====

There would be more to it, but that's the general gist of how I would have taken this.

I would praise this kind of development myself.  +1 Nox type person.

[Kakistos_]

Some of you see Morinth as a victim it seems. I disagree. She may have her condition but she has made her choice. She is not a vampire who needs to kill to survive, she chooses to because of the thrill. I am sympathetic with her plight to be free. She could have accomplished this without leaving a trail of bodies. This crucial fact is why I think Shepard will catch major gunfire for his/her decision. I wonder if this will alter Liara's standing as a Squad mate. As the Shadow Broker she will find out about this.

[InvincibleHero]

How would it become common knowledge? Only two witnesses to the crime Shepard and Morinth. All the others have is circumstantial evidence and what are they going to betray Shepard the likely only chance the galaxy has? Unlikely.

Just because Shepard is now seen with Morinth doesn't mean he/she killed Samara. Her body could have been dumped anywhere in the Terminus systems and the Asari would not know how she died. A body might never be recovered even. They will not know squat. It is not like Samara is in constant contact telling them everything she does.

[Medhia Nox]

@InvincibleHero - which is a terrible flaw in nearly all RPG game design for NPCs.

Samara - and all the characters - should have friendships outside of Shepard (or Hawke, etc). And those friends should notice something VERY wrong with "Samara".

That - and her little midnight snacking on crew members issue.

[Homebound]

InvincibleHero wrote...

How would it become common knowledge? Only two witnesses to the crime Shepard and Morinth. All the others have is circumstantial evidence and what are they going to betray Shepard the likely only chance the galaxy has? Unlikely.

Just because Shepard is now seen with Morinth doesn't mean he/she killed Samara. Her body could have been dumped anywhere in the Terminus systems and the Asari would not know how she died. A body might never be recovered even. They will not know squat. It is not like Samara is in constant contact telling them everything she does.

asari mind-meld.

[AcidGlow]

im doing a complete evil playthrough right now im about to pick morinth over samara betray tali and give them the evidence and destroy the geth

[InvincibleHero]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@InvincibleHero - which is a terrible flaw in nearly all RPG game design for NPCs.

Samara - and all the characters - should have friendships outside of Shepard (or Hawke, etc). And those friends should notice something VERY wrong with "Samara".

That - and her little midnight snacking on crew members issue.

What would you have them do? Shepard could just as easily kill them unchallenged as a spectre. Is Garrus going to sniper you in the back and maybe doom the galaxy? What can Kelly do? Reprot suspicion to Illusive Man who would say MYOB. 

Samara wasn't with the crew long and seems to isolate herself and try to remain enigmatic at the same time. She would be hard to befriend and she seems the type to not want or need any. She has been a loner close to 1000 years after all.

Well the snacking part hasn't happened and Morinth says it is under control. It is only an issue if BW decides to make it one.