361 réponses à ce sujet

[armass]

This is the reason i think we will finally need a batarian squadmate, to open Shepards(at least paragons) and everyone elses eyes to the real batarians, who are not criminals or slavers. Hopefully Bioware will make it happen. Batarians have been misrepresented so far.

Besides, altough they were hit by the reapers, any forces they have left could be useful for enlisting into the armada thats going after the reapers. Im guessing your gonna need alot of paragon or renegade power to do that tough.

Modifié par armass, 11 juin 2011 - 02:54 .

[CroGamer002]

MysteryNotes wrote...

So..you consider celebrating someones death barbaric, but not slavery unless the slaver treats their slaves badly?
What?
I'd say that slavery is more barbaric because the slave is still alive. As for celebrating someones death..well he's dead its not like he's going to care. Lmao.

So even if someone that was raised with slaver culture being good treats his slaves good and slaves don't leave in fear from their master, is that person still barbaric?

Note, question is barbaric, not good or bad.



And this kind of thinking "he's dead, why would he care" is just really ignorant.

[llandwynwyn]

I feel sorry for them. Their gov sucks, the Reapers got to them first and they were made to be hated.
You just know they - more than any other race - have no chance of salvation.

[Apollo Starflare]

The hate of the Batarians as a species is very facepalm worth it's true. Their government, or at least parts of it, probably deserves being shot into the sun but other than that the 'lol Reapers killed Batarians first' mentality is pretty sad to see.

I mean even my saying that about the (awful) government which funds the (eeeevil) slavers and pirates is kinda bad. Two wrongs don't make a right. I was really hoping over the course of the trilogy we would:
1) Get a Batarian squadmate who gave us a better understanding of them and the conflict between our races and, 2) that we would have a chance to resolve the conflict, or at least make a start on the healing process.

You can't solve a problem like that by just shooting everyone involved with the slavery and piracy, especially when part of the reason it is so seemingly accepted in Batarian space is because of the anti-Human sentiment and misconceptions.

[CroGamer002]

llandwynwyn wrote...

I feel sorry for them. Their gov sucks, the Reapers got to them first and they were made to be hated.
You just know they - more than any other race - have no chance of salvation.

Hmh, why?

[Whatever42]

Its more than just their government, cruelty and slavery are deeply engrained in their culture.

Imagine the ancient Roman culture. If you think you could simply destroy the government and suddenly the people of that culture would stop killing and beating their slaves and treat their neighbours with respect and dignity, you'd be kidding yourself. That culture can not be redeemed, only destroyed.

And the Batarian attitude is not because of humanity. They were raiding and enslaving long before humans arrived.

[CroGamer002]

Apollo Starflare wrote...

The hate of the Batarians as a species is very facepalm worth it's true. Their government, or at least parts of it, probably deserves being shot into the sun but other than that the 'lol Reapers killed Batarians first' mentality is pretty sad to see.

I mean even my saying that about the (awful) government which funds the (eeeevil) slavers and pirates is kinda bad. Two wrongs don't make a right. I was really hoping over the course of the trilogy we would:
1) Get a Batarian squadmate who gave us a better understanding of them and the conflict between our races and, 2) that we would have a chance to resolve the conflict, or at least make a start on the healing process.

You can't solve a problem like that by just shooting everyone involved with the slavery and piracy, especially when part of the reason it is so seemingly accepted in Batarian space is because of the anti-Human sentiment and misconceptions.

1000s times this.

[llandwynwyn]

Mesina2 wrote...
Hmh, why?

They're already ****ed and I doubt the game will present opportunities to help them before is too late for the entire race. and even if they are somehow saved, their civilization will be too broken.
Well, unless they give us a happy ending, everything is going to be fine for everyone. 

[CroGamer002]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Its more than just their government, cruelty and slavery are deeply engrained in their culture.

Imagine the ancient Roman culture. If you think you could simply destroy the government and suddenly the people of that culture would stop killing and beating their slaves and treat their neighbours with respect and dignity, you'd be kidding yourself. That culture can not be redeemed, only destroyed.

1st their government enforces that culture for
2nd slavery itself is not a problem then, but culture, if it's in their culture that beating slave is OK

And the Batarian attitude is not because of humanity. They were raiding and enslaving long before humans arrived.

Like every other species without their government approval and knowledge.

[CroGamer002]

llandwynwyn wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...
Hmh, why?

They're already ****ed and I doubt the game will present opportunities to help them before is too late for the entire race. and even if they are somehow saved, their civilization will be too broken.
Well, unless they give us a happy ending, everything is going to be fine for everyone. 

Hmh, half of Batarian Hegemony isn't just in "South" part of Milky Way, where Alliance and most of Turian Hierarchy is.

[Leonia]

Apollo Starflare wrote...

The hate of the Batarians as a species is very facepalm worth it's true. Their government, or at least parts of it, probably deserves being shot into the sun but other than that the 'lol Reapers killed Batarians first' mentality is pretty sad to see.

I mean even my saying that about the (awful) government which funds the (eeeevil) slavers and pirates is kinda bad. Two wrongs don't make a right. I was really hoping over the course of the trilogy we would:
1) Get a Batarian squadmate who gave us a better understanding of them and the conflict between our races and, 2) that we would have a chance to resolve the conflict, or at least make a start on the healing process.

You can't solve a problem like that by just shooting everyone involved with the slavery and piracy, especially when part of the reason it is so seemingly accepted in Batarian space is because of the anti-Human sentiment and misconceptions.

Good points as always, Apollo.

Like I said, I think most of the hate comes from people playing non-Earthborns and buying into a lot of the propaganda that gets spread around in the lore. It's true that the batarians aren't well-received but some of the blind hatred directed at them is a bit over the top.

I can think of 3 examples of non-barbaric batarians: the one you help in the plague zone on Omega is somewhat friendly if you help him and talk to him later, Balak's second-in-command can be reasoned with in BDtS, and Garrus mentions having a reasonable batarian on his squad on Omega.

Also I don't get the slavery = barbaric argument. It's certainly bad, but I think we need to re-evaluate what barbarism means.

Modifié par leonia42, 11 juin 2011 - 03:40 .

[Whatever42]

Mesina2 wrote...

1st their government enforces that culture for
2nd slavery itself is not a problem then, but culture, if it's in their culture that beating slave is OK

And the Batarian attitude is not because of humanity. They were raiding and enslaving long before humans arrived.

Like every other species without their government approval and knowledge.

1) Cultures aren't enforced by governments. It's true that governments can enforce certain behaviours foreign to a culture (just look at the totalitarian regimes of the 20th century) but usually governments reflect the culture. We've seen many times that removing a bad governement does not change the underlying culture.

2) Slavery is the problem, certainly, but yes, changing the culture is the bigger problem. 

Lets use that American slavery example. Even though the U.S. government was against slavery, even though many in the state governments in the south were against slavery, it took a civil war and a near-eradication of southern culture to end it. And even then, attitudes didn't really change for over a century. 

Now, again assuming that Batarians are really reskinned humans and not hardwired differently, then to redeem the Batarians, we not only need to destroy their government but smash their society and rule it for a century until real cultural change takes affect.

Now, for my colonist Shepard, this is far too philosophical and political. Expecting someone who has been the cruel victim of a cruel culture and system to sit back like a stoic philospher is unrealistic. He will hate Batarians.

[Fathom72]

Honest question for all the Batarian haters:

Do y'all feel the same way about citizens of North Korea?

[CroGamer002]

leonia42 wrote...

Apollo Starflare wrote...

The hate of the Batarians as a species is very facepalm worth it's true.
Their government, or at least parts of it, probably deserves being shot into the sun but other than that the 'lol Reapers killed Batarians first' mentality is pretty sad to see.

I mean even my saying thatabout the (awful) government which funds the (eeeevil) slavers and pirates is kinda bad. Two wrongs don't make a right. I was really hopingover the course of the trilogy we would:
1) Get a Batarian squadmatewho gave us a better understanding of them and the conflict between ourraces and, 2) that we would have a chance to resolve the conflict, or at least make a start on the healing process.

You can't solve a problem like that by just shooting everyone involved with the slavery and piracy, especially when part of the reason it is so seemingly accepted in Batarian space is because of the anti-Human sentiment and misconceptions.

Good points as always, Apollo.

Like I said, I think most of the hate comes from people playing non-Earthborns and buying into a lot of the propaganda that gets spread around in the lore. It's true that the batarians aren't well-received but some of the blind hatred directed at them is a bit over the top.

I can think of 3 examples of non-barbaric batarians: the one you help in the plague zone on Omega is somewhat friendly if you help him and talk to him later, Balak's second-in-command can be reasoned with in BDtS, and Garrus mentions having a reasonable batarian on his squad on Omega.

Also I don't get the slavery = barbaric argument. It's certainly bad, but I think we need to re-evaluate what barbarism means.

Also I'd like to add that Batarians that were about to kill Mordin's assistant weren't really irrational.

There's a human with some medical stuff while there's a plague that infects everyone but them and Vorcha( which are not very bright species). I think I would find that very suspicious too if I didn't talked to Mordin.

Plus you can reason with them.

Modifié par Mesina2, 11 juin 2011 - 03:49 .

[Big stupid jellyfish]

I find all Batarian hate to be very ironic.

I mean, in-game Batarians don't like humans because of propaganda; most of them are not allowed to look out of the box they're in; they don't see the full picture.

Players don't like Batarians because of the angle the game shows us (which comes pretty close to lore propaganda in my book); players are not allowed to look into the box average civilians are in (what do we know about their normal life, dreams, aspirations, government opposition?); players don't see the full picture.

Modifié par Big stupid jellyfish, 11 juin 2011 - 03:49 .

[rabidhanar]

Fathom72 wrote...

Honest question for all the Batarian haters:

Do y'all feel the same way about citizens of North Korea?

Actually no, I do not. Nor do I hate any particular country unless that country has lower moral standard than others (See **** Germany, Rwanda)

I hate the species of Batarians because of their culture, dogma of the government, drug use, slavery, and terrorism. The fact that the government gives praise for terroristic actions annoys me.

[CroGamer002]

rabidhanar wrote...

Fathom72 wrote...

Honest question for all the Batarian haters:

Do y'all feel the same way about citizens of North Korea?

Actually no, I do not. Nor do I hate any particular country unless that country has lower moral standard than others (See **** Germany, Rwanda)

I hate the species of Batarians because of their culture, dogma of the government, drug use, slavery, and terrorism. The fact that the government gives praise for terroristic actions annoys me.

That is... the most stupidest thing I have ever read on BSN that isn't from troll.

Oh and BTW why don't you consider that Codex lied about that vague info that Batarians Hegemony found terrorist attack?
You know, Alliance propaganda like that Sovereign is just Saren's flagship and being a Reaper is just some conspiracy theorist nonsense.
Or same thing with Mass Relay's and Citadel being made of Protheans even in ME2.

[Whatever42]

One point: obviously players don't hate a fictional computer game species. Most of this is roleplay. While I am a stoic philosopher, my Shepard is not. He is a victim of incredible viciousness and cruelty and has only seen confirmation of his beliefs. It is a deliberately narrow view of the world.

Now, the Batarian culture is horrifying. It is also near-universal and deeply engrained. To go Godwin on you, its like saying that nationalist socialists aren't inherently evil but are merely a reflection of their conditioning. There may even be the odd nice nationalist socialist who isn't a murdering racist. However, its a pretty fine distinction to make and when you've been their victim, its unrealistic to expect people to make those distinctions.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 11 juin 2011 - 03:56 .

[rabidhanar]

All right Mesina, say that that information is all propaganda...
It changes nothing. Based entirely on actions I have seen myself through Shepard's eyes.

Colonist Shepard here (for the record):
Batarians kill parents - bad
Batarians enslave friends (talitha) - bad
Batarians try to launch a meteor at Terra Nova - bad
Batarians kill humans on that meteor for no reason - bad
Batarians plant bombs on said meteors for an escape plan - bad
Batarian tried to Poison me for no reason - bad

what am I not understanding through that situation? If I suddenly see a batarian Mother Teresa save thousands of orphans from a raging fire or something along those lines I will change my view. As of now they deserve no mercy.

for the record: most stupidest is incorrect grammar. one is either more stupid or the dumbest.

Modifié par rabidhanar, 11 juin 2011 - 04:31 .

[CroGamer002]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

1) Cultures aren't enforced by governments. It's true that governments can enforce certain behaviours foreign to a culture (just look at the totalitarian regimes of the 20th century) but usually governments reflect the culture. We've seen many times that removing a bad governement does not change the underlying culture.

In other words, it still enforces the culture.
Plus slavery is great way to controll your population.

2) Slavery is the problem, certainly, but yes, changing the culture is the bigger problem.

Cultures can adapt.

Lets use that American slavery example. Even though the U.S. government was against slavery, even though many in the state governments in the south were against slavery, it took a civil war and a near-eradication of southern culture to end it. And even then, attitudes didn't really change for over a century.

Reason for a war is because South's main economy was plantation and making slavery outlawed would make their main economy unprofitable.

Now, again assuming that Batarians are really reskinned humans and not hardwired differently, then to redeem the Batarians, we not only need to destroy their government but smash their society and rule it for a century until real cultural change takes affect.

You don't have to destroy someone's culture do to their economical system.
It can just adapt.

Only bigots will have big problem with that.

Now, for my colonist Shepard, this is far too philosophical and political. Expecting someone who has been the cruel victim of a cruel culture and system to sit back like a stoic philospher is unrealistic. He will hate Batarians.

My canon is Colonist too and he doesn't hate Batarians.
Why? Because he's not irrational. That attack was a act of few, not of entire species.


Also I give you even real life example.
Serbs killed my uncle during war.
I don't hate Serbs( then again I never met him), my father( his brother) doesn't hate Serbs, my grandmother( his mother) doesn't hate Serbs. They also think it's stupid to hate them all, since it's irrational to pin someones death to entire nation, even in war.

And you'll hear that story from many other who lost their loved ones and war veterans.

Only extremist aholes( or just internet idiotic posers) hate Serbs.

[CroGamer002]

rabidhanar wrote...

All right Mesina, say that that information is all propaganda...
It changes nothing. Based entirely on actions I have seen myself through Shepard's eyes.

Colonist Shepard here (for the record):
Batarians kill parents - bad
Batarians enslave friends (talitha) - bad
Batarians try to launch a meteor at Terra Nova - bad
Batarians kill humans on that meteor for no reason - bad
Batarians plant bombs on said meteors for an escape plan - bad

what am I not understanding through that situation? If I suddenly see a batarian Mother Teresa save thousands of orphans from a raging fire or something along those lines I will change my view. As of now they deserve no mercy.

Cerberus did even worse stuff.
Why you don't hate humanity too?


This reason are irrational to hate entire species/nation.

for the record: most stupidest is incorrect grammer. You are either more stupid or the dumbest.

Or just English isn't my native language so grammar errors are expected.

Plus what is grammer?
Talk about irony.

[marshalleck]

There should be no wonder at the batarian hate. Batarians as they are presented in the actual course of gameplay, i.e. Shepard directly interacting with them (not counting Codex articles people may have not read, Drew K. books people may have not read, CDN articles people may have not read, Newsnet stories people may have not heard, former Garrus companions we never met, etc.) are uniformly painted as obnoxious, crude, belligerent racists without exception. Even the so-called moderate batarians are still criminal thugs or blanket blame for the Omega illness on an entire species. Quite simply, as presented to the player, they are unsavory. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 11 juin 2011 - 04:25 .

[Fathom72]

Hey, give Mesina a break. English isn't his native language.

[rabidhanar]

i was not personally attacking you, just stating the correct english.
Jeez, i cannot believe I spelled that wrong, I look quite intelligent from that. -.-

"Cerberus does even worse stuff. Why don't you hate humanity too?"
Because I have focus with Cerberus. I have seen humans do great things in the game, I have seen humans do horrible things in the game. I can see both sides. The Batarians I have only seen the negative, so I dislike them.

I in real life dislike the organization Al Queda. That does not mean I hate arabic people, just the organization in and of itself. It gives the people a bad reputation. (I understand the irony between that and my basis for hating Batarians...i have thought on this)

If the events that the batarians were in are linked with a group, not the entire species, I would hate the group. As of now, I only have he one option (unless I hate the individuals by themselves)

My colonist Shepard is a speciest, that is how I created him. I gave him an emotional release in the form of hatred to help with the loss of his family. It is the reason he joined the Alliance. That is how I roleplay and the reasoning behind my disliking batarians.
Spaceborn Shepard is different.
EDIT: Changed the "You" in my prior post to a "One" to help against confusion.

Modifié par rabidhanar, 11 juin 2011 - 04:35 .

[darknoon5]

rabidhanar wrote...

i was not personally attacking you, just stating the correct english.
Jeez, i cannot believe I spelled that wrong, I look quite intelligent from that. -.-

"Cerberus does even worse stuff. Why don't you hate humanity too?"
Because I have focus with Cerberus. I have seen humans do great things in the game, I have seen humans do horrible things in the game. I can see both sides. The Batarians I have only seen the negative, so I dislike them.

I in real life dislike the organization Al Queda. That does not mean I hate arabic people, just the organization in and of itself. It gives the people a bad reputation. (I understand the irony between that and my basis for hating Batarians...i have thought on this)

If the events that the batarians were in are linked with a group, not the entire species, I would hate the group. As of now, I only have he one option (unless I hate the individuals by themselves)

My colonist Shepard is a speciest, that is how I created him. I gave him an emotional release in the form of hatred to help with the loss of his family. It is the reasoning he joined the Alliance. That is how I roleplay and the reasoning I dislike batarians.
Spaceborn Shepard is different entirely.

Calling somebody stupid is kind of a personal attack...

And you summed up the point yourself. You've only seen Batarian's do negative things, but you haven't had a chance to see many Batarian's at all, and definetly none under the Batrian government, but you seem willing to base your hatred for an entire race off of a few individuals, many of whom were not even portrayed as bad, such as plague Batarian, Salkie and that shopkeeper to name a few examples.

And the example of Al Qaeda (another ironic typo from you) doesn't work as it is obvious out of billions of Batarians, not all support their culture and ideals. Such as that Batarian pushing for peace in the CDN.