361 réponses à ce sujet

[fighterchick]

Mesina2 wrote...

fighterchicks wrote...

What are you trying to say?  Do you think the option to play a racist shepard should be taken out of the game?

Nope, just that trying to reason that is insane.

If you're not racist but you're fictional character is racist then you won't argue that this character is in right.

Unless you're lying not to be racist or just stupid.

Well, I can play a racist Shepard and can find reasons for why she's like that.  With the different backgrounds that you can play for your Shepard, I think it's understandable for her to be racist.  I don't always try to place real life morals on my video game character.  Hell, most of the renegade actions in ME 2 resulted in a violent death for someone.  Sometimes it's more like "I want to kill this person horribly" as opposed to "this is the quickest way to get something done", but people still roleplay renegade Shepard.  

Or am I getting what you're saying wrong?  In universe- I can understand a racist Shepard is what I'm trying to say.  In our own world, well, not many people are a big fan of overt racism.  I'm certainly not going to try to argue that my Shepard's views are right, just that they're understandable.

[marshalleck]

Mesina2 wrote...

You never played as Paragon, didn't you?

Nope, most Paragon actions are too nauseatingly self-righteous, naive, and idealistic for me to tolerate

Also this is argument after the fact. They don't know who this guy really is. All they know there's an artificial made plague that doesn't effect humans and Vorcha.
Ever heard of angry mob?

My point exactly. You just shot yourself in the foot. "Angry mobs" are generally regarded as impulsive, unreasonable, violent, and dangerous. You're not doing batarians any favors by drawing this comparison.

Also if you don't reason with them( or intimidate), they'll probably rather want to kill this guy then let him go and spread virus, that they believe he's spreading.

And there's no racism in that scene.

Again, my point exactly. They have no evidence that Daniel is spreading the plague because he's not. He has no weapons and he came from Mordin's clinic, who is known to be treating victims of the plague. The reason they suspect him is because he's human and humans are immune. They simply want to kill him not because they caught him victimizing anyone or surreptitiously poisoning water or food supplies, or anything of the sort--they want to kill him just for being there.

Modifié par marshalleck, 11 juin 2011 - 05:50 .

[Ryzaki]

Mesina2 wrote...
Though trying to reason that this sick/ahole character is in right is insane.

 

And who is arguing that character is in the right? 

[CroGamer002]

Aradace wrote...

You're missing the whole point.  Right or wrong isnt the question.  Its the fact that it is a playable option.  Just because you play a racist shepard doesnt make the person playing him/her a bad person.  If that is your belief then perhaps you think that all characters should be Hippygons....err....Paragons and no one should have the option to play anything but that?

No, playable option is not a point of this thread.

True question of this thread is "Why you hate x" not "Why is there an option to hate x".


And you guys are giving irrational reasons.

You also admit it's racist and you're DEFENDING IT like it's right thing to do!
That's the WRONG part here. You're trying to defend racism.

Not your fictional character, YOU!

[Aradace]

marshalleck wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

You never played as Paragon, didn't you?

Nope, most Paragon actions are too nauseatingly self-righteous, naive, and idealistic for me to tolerate

I tried to play a full paragon once.  And for the same reasons you stated, I couldnt bring myself to finish it lol. 

[Aradace]

Mesina2 wrote...

Aradace wrote...

You're missing the whole point.  Right or wrong isnt the question.  Its the fact that it is a playable option.  Just because you play a racist shepard doesnt make the person playing him/her a bad person.  If that is your belief then perhaps you think that all characters should be Hippygons....err....Paragons and no one should have the option to play anything but that?

No, playable option is not a point of this thread.

True question of this thread is "Why you hate x" not "Why is there an option to hate x".


And you guys are giving irrational reasons.

You also admit it's racist and you're DEFENDING IT like it's right thing to do!
That's the WRONG part here. You're trying to defend racism.

Not your fictional character, YOU!

Well then for me "personally" it's still irrelevant.  I dont have an opinion one way or the other on "racism".  I see it as  something that exists in the world and as something that EVERYONE does, or has, taken part in at some point in their life in some form or another.  Anyone who says otherwise is claiming to not be human.  It's like saying you dont lie.  Everyone lies, it's a matter of how often and how much you're willing to admit to.

Modifié par Aradace, 11 juin 2011 - 05:53 .

[rabidhanar]

I am defending the right for my Shepard to be a racist.
I am also giving reasonings that might be "emotional" because of what happened to my Shepard. Irrational or rational has no true meaning when it comes to his emotions. Much good and much evil have occured in the world do to the emotions of individuals.

What answer to you personally would be "rational" anyway? What would be the exact words of an answer that you would accept wholeheartedly? Every person uses their opinon to base their truth. That is why morals are generally useless to talk about.

[fighterchick]

Mesina2 wrote...

Aradace wrote...

You're missing the whole point.  Right or wrong isnt the question.  Its the fact that it is a playable option.  Just because you play a racist shepard doesnt make the person playing him/her a bad person.  If that is your belief then perhaps you think that all characters should be Hippygons....err....Paragons and no one should have the option to play anything but that?

No, playable option is not a point of this thread.

True question of this thread is "Why you hate x" not "Why is there an option to hate x".


And you guys are giving irrational reasons.

You also admit it's racist and you're DEFENDING IT like it's right thing to do!
That's the WRONG part here. You're trying to defend racism.

Not your fictional character, YOU!

It seems like most people are defending the right to play a racism human in Mass Effect and that's it's understandable from an in-game perspective.  I don't see anyone *right now* defending that they're racist Shepard is right for hating all Batarians.  The game certainly doesn't give us an endearing Batarians to work with.

[Aradace]

rabidhanar wrote...

. That is why morals are generally useless to talk about.

QFT. 

Edit: I personally dont look at very many choices from a "right" or "wrong" spectrum.  I simply view them as "choices" to be made.

Modifié par Aradace, 11 juin 2011 - 06:00 .

[lovgreno]

marshalleck wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

You never played as Paragon, didn't you?

Nope, most Paragon actions are too nauseatingly self-righteous, naive, and idealistic for me to tolerate

Also this is argument after the fact. They don't know who this guy really is. All they know there's an artificial made plague that doesn't effect humans and Vorcha.
Ever heard of angry mob?

My point exactly. You just shot yourself in the foot. "Angry mobs" are generally regarded as impulsive and unreasonable. You're not doing batarians any favors by drawing this comparison.

Also if you don't reason with them( or intimidate), they'll probably rather want to kill this guy then let him go and spread virus, that they believe he's spreading.

And there's no racism in that scene.

Again, my point exactly. They have no evidence that Daniel is spreading the plague because he's not. He has no weapons and he came from Mordin's clinic, who is known to be treating victims of the plague. The reason they suspect him is because he's human and humans are immune. They simply want to kill him not because they caught him victimizing anyone or surreptitiously poisoning water or food supplies, or anything of the sort--they want to kill him just for being there.

How do you know that Paragon actions are too nauseatingly self-righteous, naive, and idealistic for you to tolerate if you never gave them a honest chance? Is it perhaps easier to generalise than to actualy dare trying to see if there is an alternative way than your preconceptions to see things?

The batarians in Mordins requitment mission are in panic, wich is understandable as they are locked up in a gangwar with everyone dying everywhere from a strange disease. They are desperate to do something about it before their own families starts dying. So they try to find the most probable source at the moment. They are aware that they may be wrong about the humans being a possible cause, batarians are not stupid, but at the moment it seems like the safest bet.

Modifié par lovgreno, 11 juin 2011 - 06:02 .

[CroGamer002]

marshalleck wrote...

Nope, most Paragon actions are too nauseatingly self-righteous, naive, and idealistic for me to tolerate

The irony on that one.

My point exactly. You just shot yourself in the foot. "Angry mobs" are generally regarded as impulsive, unreasonable, violent, and dangerous. You're not doing batarians any favors by drawing this comparison.

And what are the reasons for having angry mob?
They don't become angry for the sake of being angry.

Again, my point exactly. They have no evidence that Daniel is spreading the plague because he's not. He has no weapons and he came from Mordin's clinic, who is known to be treating victims of the plague. The reason they suspect him is because he's human and humans are immune. They simply want to kill him not because they caught him victimizing anyone or surreptitiously poisoning water or food supplies, or anything of the sort--they want to kill him just for being there.

Oh I'm sorry but where is your evidence then KNEW who was really he?

And didn't you listen what was that Batarian saying?

"We know you're spreading the plague virus. We saw the vials at the bag."
Yeah, they're totally want to kill him for being there. /sarcasm


Don't tell me they being angry there is unreasonable since for weeks a lot of people they know were dead or dieing.


Plus you see Paragon choice and them being reasonable.

Modifié par Mesina2, 11 juin 2011 - 06:19 .

[armass]

Gotta love the double standards people keep showing in here.

You like krogans, you know the ultraviolent lizardpeople that only want to fight and kill.

You like the cerberus, a terrorist organization that has experimented on children and killed thousands of alliance citizens

Some people even think there are "renegade" reapers out there, or that reapers are the "good guys"... sigh

Yeat batarians are completely beyond redemption? Yeah kill them all...!

Modifié par armass, 11 juin 2011 - 06:17 .

[CroGamer002]

rabidhanar wrote...

I am defending the right for my Shepard to be a racist.
I am also giving reasonings that might be "emotional" because of what happened to my Shepard. Irrational or rational has no true meaning when it comes to his emotions. Much good and much evil have occured in the world do to the emotions of individuals.

What answer to you personally would be "rational" anyway? What would be the exact words of an answer that you would accept wholeheartedly? Every person uses their opinon to base their truth. That is why morals are generally useless to talk about.

I never said your Shepard CAN'T be racist, but defending it like he's in the right for that is wrong.

Racism is not rational nor it will ever be.

Also you said irrational reasons, I said they are and even though you claim that you know that and instead of just saying "it's just my Shepard racist, I really don't think that" you DEFEND your Shepard's racist beliefs.


That's the part where you're in wrong.
I don't care for you to play racist Shepard, but for YOU to defend his beliefs.

[marshalleck]

Mesina2 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Nope, most Paragon actions are too nauseatingly self-righteous, naive, and idealistic for me to tolerate

The irony on that one.

My point exactly. You just shot yourself in the foot. "Angry mobs" are generally regarded as impulsive, unreasonable, violent, and dangerous. You're not doing batarians any favors by drawing this comparison.

And what are the reasons for having angry mob?
They don't become angry for the sake of being angry.

Again, my point exactly. They have no evidence that Daniel is spreading the plague because he's not. He has no weapons and he came from Mordin's clinic, who is known to be treating victims of the plague. The reason they suspect him is because he's human and humans are immune. They simply want to kill him not because they caught him victimizing anyone or surreptitiously poisoning water or food supplies, or anything of the sort--they want to kill him just for being there.

Oh I'm sorry but where is your evidence then KNEW who was really he?

And didn't you listen what was that Batarian saying?

"We know you're spreading the plague virus. We saw the vials at the bag."
Yeah, they're totally want to kill him for being there. /sarcasm


Don't tell me they being angry there isn't unreasonable since for weeks a lot of people they know were dead or dieing.


Plus you see Paragon choice and them being reasonable.

First, how am I being ironic or self-righteous? 

Second, arguing "look at how reasonable they are, my Paragon Shepard was able to talk them down" is hardly a fair metric. Paragon or Renegade Shepard can talk anyone into taking the most improbable, inconsistent actions. I'd rather look at how they were acting before Shepard showed up--threatening to murder someone isn't the action of a reasonable person. 

They saw vials. In a *doctor's* hand bag. A doctor from the clinic where Mordin was curing victims of the plague. Shock! Horror! Get the pitchforks, let's kill this guy! He's obviously spreading the plague, yeah that's it.

Take a step back, take a deep breath, and calm yourself. I am not saying all batarians are criminals and racists. What I am saying is that every batarian Shepard actually encounters and interacts with in the game is, at the very least, unlikeable. Why Bioware refuse to show us a moderate batarian, when we know they should and do exist (numerous examples in the codex and expanded canonical works) is anyone's guess...but it seems to me as though Bioware don't want players to like batarians. Likely because of a huge conflict coming to a head in ME3.

Modifié par marshalleck, 11 juin 2011 - 06:24 .

[Mykel54]

Batarian: race of aliens that enslave humans by implanting control chips on them, they also have a lot of eyes, sharp teeth and scary voice, plus, they like to play the victims. What´s not to love?

[DarkDragon777]

because batarians are ugly

[CroGamer002]

marshalleck wrote...


First, how am I being ironic or self-righteous?

Gee, you never played as one and you claim all those things.
That's a bit self-righteous.

Second, arguing "look at how reasonable they are, my Paragon Shepard was able to talk them down" is hardly a fair metric. Paragon or Renegade Shepard can talk anyone into taking the most improbable actions. I'd rather look at how they were acting before Shepard showed up--threatening to murder someone isn't the action of a reasonable person.

Then how is killing Shiala reasonable?
I mean she was unarmed and posed no threat to you.

They saw vials. In a *doctor's* hand bag. A doctor from the clinic where Mordin was curing victims of the plague. Shock! Horror! Get the pitchforks, let's kill this guy! He's obviously spreading the plague, yeah that's it.

Oh I'm sorry but where's your evidence that they:

A) Knew who Mordin is
He was curing the plague
C) He found the cure for plague
D) They knew Daniels works for Mordin



This is just an argument after the fact.

Modifié par Mesina2, 11 juin 2011 - 06:31 .

[rabidhanar]

sadly, I agree with Mesina on the Daniel Batarian confrontation...Panicing sentients worryign about a plague and meeting a member of one of only two species that are immune carrying VIALS of some material makes sense that it would lead to violence. If I was one of those Batarians I would do the same thing. Remember Hindsight is Twenty-Twenty.

What does the Batarian Leader say anyway when you choose the paragon option...something about not believing that a human would follow their word?

[Faerlyte]

I like the batarians. I find them interesting, not least of which because they do struggle so much.They're not all slave drivers either - that's a ridiculous idea. You can't dump the entirety of one race into the same basket. They're all complex individuals and just because what we've seen so far has generally depicted the ugly side doesn't meat there isn't a good one to show too. There is.

[CroGamer002]

marshalleck wrote...

Take a step back, take a deep breath, and calm yourself.

I'm calm.

Though I found this "My racist Shepard is in right for being racist" and defend it to be outrages.

I am not saying all batarians are criminals and racists. What I am saying is that every batarian Shepard actually encounters and interacts with in the game is, at the very least, unlikeable. Why Bioware refuse to show us a moderate batarian, when we know they should and do exist (numerous examples in the codex and expanded canonical works) is anyone's guess...but it seems to me as though Bioware don't want players to like batarians. Likely because of a huge conflict coming to a head in ME3.

Let's see.

That sick Batarian on Mordin's recruitment, in same mission those few Batarians listen to reason( oh but playing Paragon is big problem to you), shopkeeper on Omega, Garrus saying he had a Batarian tech with him and little sad music while Shepard doesn't seem very happy after killing 300 000 Batarians.

[KingGato]

Wasn't the point always that batarians aren't necessarily bad, but their government clearly is? The only batarians outside of the traverse are almost all slavers and mercenaries, and if the codex and news reports on Omega are any indicator the Batarian government keeps a pretty firm thumb down on any sort of unfiltered information coming into their space. Hell, they even call them Batarian Hegemony, which is a pretty clear indicator. It seems likely that the Batarians have been shown only the worst side of humanity themselves, starting with them "shoving" them out of Council Space and ending with the destruction of one of their homeworlds. I'm not saying Batarians are misunderstood and awesome and humans suck, I'm just saying that if normal humans and normal batarians had a chance to interact without the interference of parties who's interests are served by them hating one another, they would probably get along okay.

As far as I recall, the only few times Shepard interacts with Batarian non-combatants, they all seem shocked that every human isn't some gun-blasting monster (assuming you Paragon the place up). .

[Big stupid jellyfish]

KingGato wrote...

Wasn't the point always that batarians aren't necessarily bad, but their government clearly is? The only batarians outside of the traverse are almost all slavers and mercenaries, and if the codex and news reports on Omega are any indicator the Batarian government keeps a pretty firm thumb down on any sort of unfiltered information coming into their space. Hell, they even call them Batarian Hegemony, which is a pretty clear indicator. It seems likely that the Batarians have been shown only the worst side of humanity themselves, starting with them "shoving" them out of Council Space and ending with the destruction of one of their homeworlds. I'm not saying Batarians are misunderstood and awesome and humans suck, I'm just saying that if normal humans and normal batarians had a chance to interact without the interference of parties who's interests are served by them hating one another, they would probably get along okay.

As far as I recall, the only few times Shepard interacts with Batarian non-combatants, they all seem shocked that every human isn't some gun-blasting monster (assuming you Paragon the place up). .

This.

Thank you for for input, KingGato.

[Sylvianus]

Their government threats humanity and humans. Also, I hate slavery.

[archurban]

they are not friendly for human especially. remember, bartender at Omega? he tries to kill humans. someone died. shepard was passed out when he drank. that just shows enough. their reputation is not really good at all. more likely notorious. that's why I blew up entire batarians system in Arrival DLC. I was just glad to kill over 300,000 bastards.

[Eleinehmm]

archurban, Sylvianus I would like to refer you to KingGato's post. ^