110 réponses à ce sujet

[bossk-office]

When a game comes out, a whole culture quickly grows up around it. Youtube fills to the brim with ingenious videos of fun stuff, speed runs, outlandish accomplishments. People toil to master it and invest hours into writing up guides for others to learn from. Some are driven to compete, some to help; many in fact to do both. It brings out the best in people, and even though these cultures don’t last forever, they don’t die out completely: somewhere, today, someone picks up a ten-year-old game and clocks their own speed runs against the best of the best.

Patch 1.03 dealt a death blow to Dragon Age 2 culture! All those hundreds of Youtube clips detailing unreal accomplishments were rendered moot, because the game is different now. Future 1.03 players will enjoy a terrific system, but one that has too little to do with accomplishments of yore. They will get stuck on difficult fights, search for them on Youtube and find videos there that just don’t play like what they’re playing. Guides to effective builds, labours of burning love, are left hanging, only partly meaningful.

Instead of wiping them out, Bioware must have hoped patch 1.03 would further kindle these flames by feeding them more fuel. And for a while, there were signs of this. But in the end it was not to be. Activity in the gameplay forums after 1.03 is pretty much zero.

Or perhaps it was argued that min-maxers, who rely so intimately on every little detail of balance and gameplay, are a small minority that you can afford to alienate; that casual players will not suffer, only benefit from the improvements. But it is the min-maxers’ videos and how-tos that casual players turn to in their hours of need. So yes, it affects casual play.

For my 1.03 playthrough, starting now, there will be no inspiration, nothing to strive for, no one to discuss with. When I get to the Nexus Golem gauntlet, will I even look at those old 1.02 videos? No, it’s too painful – doing so will only make me think of their heroic creators who had the rug pulled out from under their feet and were thrust from celebrity into obscurity. Patch 1.03, for all its commendable bug fixes, and all its arguable improvements to gameplay, has left Dragon Age 2 less fun to play and the world a worse, colder place.

Please consider this, Bioware, when patching future games. Fix bugs by all means, but don’t tinker like this with balance and gameplay mechanics. Even if you think – even if you know you can better them, consider them set in stone. Because gamers will.

Modifié par panchamkauns, 11 juin 2011 - 05:38 .

[Rovay]

Overdramatic much?

[bossk-office]

Yes, I thought I would try some pathos in my argument

My favourite part, I think, was ”their heroic creators who had the rug pulled out from under their feet and thrust from celebrity into obscurity” ... no, ”Some are driven to compete, some to help; many in fact to do both. It brings out the best in people”.

Modifié par panchamkauns, 11 juin 2011 - 12:56 .

[Tirfan]

Umh, I thought the point of patch 1.03 was to try to make the game playable (didn't work but points for trying)
and you know, casual players who get stuck lower the difficulty down, that is why there is a casual difficulty which is easy enough that anyone can beat the game.

[Cutlass Jack]

Were there any fights in DA2 so difficult that it required going to youtube? Anyway I thought most videos were about taking dialogue out of context...like talking to 'smith' or asking Anders if he wanted a sandwich.


Unfortunately 1.03 did not come out soon enough in my opinion. Bodies exploding from pinpricks will be an eternal trope of DA2, even though it was more a bug than anything else.

[Rovay]

I think the builds and guides will be quickly changed and modified to meet today's standards.

Besides, from what I heard the "accomplishments of yore" are actually easier to do now.

Modifié par Rovay, 11 juin 2011 - 01:07 .

[Siven80]

I think its fine personally.

Some of the boss fights did take way too long and were tedious, so thumbs up for 1.03.

[bossk-office]

Cutlass Jack wrote ...
Were there any fights in DA2 so difficult that it required going to youtube?

Certainly! Players come at all levels of skill and for me there were I’m sure almost a dozen fights where it helped to see how others did it. (Of course I’m talking Nightmare difficulty.)

Siven80 wrote ...
I think its fine personally. Some of the boss fights did take way too long and were tedious, so thumbs up for 1.03.

Same here! I don’t mind any of the changes per se. I’m just sad to see a patch so divisive, relegating everything to before or after.

[Recycled Human]

I turned to YouTube to watch the best of the best and try and see how close I could match their skill with different builds. When someone makes a 2 minute run of the ARW I want to see it because I remember when the game first came out and I was playing an archer with heal spec anders and tank spec aveline it was a war of attrition lasting several hours (died a few times). Now when I run through it I can do it in 5-10 minutes but watching those videos helped tremendously to improve my game.

I experience exactly what the op mentioned when I look at some of these old vids and find I have no idea how it was accomplished.

I'd like to think there is still more to find however so kudos to those new and old who will work on guides post 1.03

[Foolsfolly]

Alright, I'm going to have to look into what this patch does that upset you so much.

As for why the forums are dead...maybe many people are like me. I've said my peace. I've moved on to other games, better games at that, and I only pop in here to see if they've announced the expansion set yet or not.

Otherwise I head right over to the Mass Effect boards and mostly lurk. ME3's going to dominate next year.

[bossk-office]

Foolsfolly wrote...
Alright, I'm going to have to look into what this patch does that upset you so much.

Hmm, I hope I’ve already explained the issue: the patch re-balances gameplay instead of just changing bugs, so that it divides everything into ”before” and ”after” ... and makes the ”before” stuff irrelevant. We had a big body of knowledge that is now ”before”.

I’m not taking sides for or against the changes per se, I don’t have enough knowledge and experience, and I’m not upset, just lamenting the good old days, y’know

Modifié par panchamkauns, 11 juin 2011 - 02:38 .

[llandwynwyn]

Well, I stopped playing after 1.03 and have no motivation to start again.
When they fix the sunder bug, perhaps...

[Foolsfolly]

I'm looking up all the changes and I'm not seeing anything terrible. In fact, I see some much needed changes. In particular I'm a fan of this:

[quote]The high dragon's fireballs no longer track moving targets. [/quote]

That is such an un-fun fight. And getting rid of that Anders killing attack will help keep the frustration level down.

[quote]When a party member's armor changes after consummating a romance, runes inscribed on his or her old armor now carry over to the new armor. [/quote]

Early rune'ing companions now more viable! Before it was just Varric and Aveline that I'd early rune (usually Runes of Fortune) and then just wait until late Act 2 or 3 to rune the others, especially the romance for that character. This is a nice fix.

[quote]In many fights, enemies now move less quickly at the start of combat. This slower initial pace makes tactical positioning more useful and important. [/quote]

Not so important to me but I know there were a lot of complaints about the lack of tactics and I'm sure this small period will allow users to pause the game and place their beefy characters in such ways to protect the swishy ones. Not a bad deal.

[quote]If the force of an enemy attack interrupts a party member's current action, the party member now resumes the action once he or she has recovered. This means, for example, that party members who have been instructed to consume a health potion will now do so as soon as they are able, and do not need to be told to consume a health potion again if they are interrupted. [/quote]

That's how it should have always worked.

[quote]In "The Captain's Condolences," it is now possible to ask Aveline about her father even if she is not currently in the party.

"Who Needs Rescuing" can now be completed.

"Friendly Concern" is now available after consummating a romance.

In "The Last Straw," Anders now responds much differently if he is a rival.

If Merrill's clan members die, she no longer speaks as if they were alive.

If Anders is a rival, giving him the Tevinter Chantry Amulet now results in rivalry points instead of friendship points.

If the Black Emporium premium content is installed, a new conversation between Fenris and Hawke's dog is available during the fourth year in Kirkwal

Alternate Merrill/Aveline banter is now available if Merrill's clan is killed.

Various references to the events of Dragon Age: Origins are now more accurate.

In the tactics menu, actions that use Items no longer become blank.

A codex entry that helps unlock the Archaeologist achievement or trophy is now easier to acquire in the Viscount's Keep during the first year in Kirkwall. [/quote]

About ****ing time! Hell, this sounds like a great patch so far. It sounds like the kind of patch I was hoping for back 3-4 months ago.

[quote]The secondary attribute requirement for equipping armor or shields (constitution for warriors, willpower for mages, and cunning for rogues) is now significantly smaller. [/quote]

Blood Mages can be more powerful! They're already strong but to wear and use decent items you had to spread your points across 3 different attributes. Now it'll be easier to build up a huge pool of health to draw from instead of having to pump Willpower to 40 or as quickly as possible or go without the better robes and staffs.

[quote]Traps no longer inflict injuries. [/quote]

I understood why traps would inflict injuries, it makes sense...but it was a still a ****. I'm glad it went back to the Origins style there.

[quote]Enemy commanders now occasionally throw stun grenades while encouraging their troops to concentrate attacks against a single party member. Previously, this behavior was limited to nightmare difficulty.[/quote]

Cool.

[quote]# Enemies now gain more health as the game progresses.
# Enemy assassins now have less health.
# Lieutenant-rank and boss-rank enemies now have less health.
# Lieutenant-rank enemies can no longer lose more than 40% of their health from a single hit, and boss-rank enemies cannot lose more than 20%. [/quote]

These are just your basic balancing units here. Usually they'd have already nailed down stats like this before shipping the game. Since DA2 was so badly rushed out the door I know they didn't play test as they should have. These small changes are to be expected and I'm sure do not ruin anything about the game.

In fact, I like the cannot loose more than % ones and I like the fact that assassins, those evil beasts, have less health. They stealth, can one-shot your mages and rogues, and they're fast...they don't need more health than the elite warrior before you that isn't nearly as deadly.

[quote]The Rune of Valiance now provides a +2 bonus to all attributes instead of a variable bonus that could rise as high as +7. As well, equipping and unequipping multiple pieces of armor that each bear a Rune of Valiance no longer results in incorrect attribute scores. [/quote]

DRATS! I liked my plus 7 to all attributes runes....

[quote]On nightmare difficulty, party members no longer suffer friendly-fire damage from warriors’ basic attacks[/quote]

YAY! Fenris is back in my team for Nightmare runs!

[quote]Claymore upgrade to the Cleave talent now has a 10% chance to STAGGER normal enemies instead of 40%. [/quote]

Wow, that is quite the nerf to one of my favorite skills....

[quote]Cleave talent now increases damage by 75% instead of 100%, while the cost has been increased from 20 stamina to 30 and cooldown from 20s to 25s. [/quote]

...

[quote]The Reaver's Blood Frenzy talent and Fenris's Veneer of Calm talent now provide a maximum bonus of +50% damage instead of +100%. [/quote]

...hmm...gonna have to completely rethink my warrior builds if I ever do another DA2 warrior again.

[quote]The Inconspicuous talent now extends the reduced threat generation to other rogues and mages within a 10m diameter. [/quote]

Wow that's nice.

[quote]The Pinning Shot talent now pins the victim for the correct duration. [/quote]

That's cool. Sometimes it felt like the enemy stubbed a toe and then continued rushing. Only sometimes, I assumed it must be some kind of class and status thing where low-level mooks you wouldn't use the skill on got 100% of the duration and the types of guys who you'd need to stop in their tracks would only get 20-50% of the duration.

[quote]The Assassin's Assassinate talent now has a 50s cooldown instead of 40s. The Annihilate upgrade now applies 200% damage vs. BRITTLE targets instead of 400%. [/quote]

DAMNIT!

...I understand why they did this....but I like my massive damages...

[quote]Death Syphon spell now drains multiple corpses more quickly. [/quote]

Cool, maybe it's worth getting now...probably not but still.

[quote]The Spirit Strike upgrade to the Spirit Bolt spell now applies 300% damage vs. DISORIENTED targets instead of 200%.[/quote]

Still not worth getting.

[quote]The Blood mage's Blood Magic spell now reserves 70% of the mage's mana instead of 50%. [/quote]

Wow, that's a hefty price for the best class of mage in the game.

[quote]The Blood mage's Grave Robber spell now affects a 12m diameter instead of 6m in order to make the ability more useful. [/quote]

aka, useful.

[quote]The Blood mage's Paralyzing Hemorrhage upgrade to the Hemorrhage spell now applies 500% damage vs. STAGGERED targets instead of 900%. [/quote]

This is just like assassinate. I understand why you've done this...I...I just wish I could own whole clusters of mooks regardless of health again....

....of course enemy health is lower too now....I'm sure it's just one of those balance things but I cry a little whenever I get nerfed...even if it's justified.

[quote]The Force mage's Unshakable spell now provides a +50 bonus to fortitude instead of +100. [/quote]

Well, there goes approximately 75% of the reason to get Force Mage.

[quote]The Spirit healer's Healing Aura spell and Anders's Panacea spell now provide a +100 bonus to health regeneration instead of +50, and a +200 bonus when upgraded instead of +100. As well, the diameter of the spell has been increased from 6m to 10m, and from 8m to 15m when upgraded. In addition, a rare case in which the spell previously provided an abnormally high rate of health regeneration no longer occurs. [/quote]

Might be worth getting now...hell might be worth being a Blood Mage/Spirit Healer now since the 100% Fortitude for the Force Mage is gone.

[quote]If Bethany or Carver rejoin the party near the end of the game, they now learn the Force Mage and Templar specializations, respectively. Existing save games from after the Deep Roads Expedition will not receive the benefit of this fix. [/quote]

That. Is. Cool.

Over all, it looks like a good patch. Fixing many needed things and nerfing some things that I'm sad to see. But it isn't the worst patch I've ever seen and I'm sure it actually does improve the quality of the game experience.

The only problem I have with it is that it came out way too late to be important to many people.

[bossk-office]

Like I said, it’s not about the specifics of the patch. Any patch that tweaks gameplay this much will do harm as well as good.

I fully agree though that if the patch had come out much sooner, it would have been better.

[Foolsfolly]

Support for the game was incredibly lax. I don't think they knew they had problems when it went gold otherwise there would have been a hefty patch waiting for players on the release date fixing things like Isabela's terrible friendship bug and all.

I honestly think they only started working on the bugs and tweaks when players started griping about them on the net. Which is a terrible way to do this. It makes it feel like we all paid to be game testers.

This is the second large patch I haven't played. I'm sure the game is very different now and probably a great deal better. I just...I don't have any desire to go back to DA2 at the moment.

[kyles3]

2H warriors were certainly dealt a death blow by way of the Sunder bug. I really hope Bioware does the right thing and gets another patch out within the next couple weeks.

Modifié par kyles3, 11 juin 2011 - 03:16 .

[Khayness]

Such drastic combat changes reminds me of MMO patches in the bad way. I hated to change my playstyle and most of my gear every time a patch hit, I agree with the OP

And besides, combat balance is the least of DA2's problems.

[Anima03]

I agree fully with Panchamkauns original post, I spend alot of time on this forum and 95% of it is spent in the Strategy\\Builds forums for DAll, since 1.03 hit those few who spent their free time to educate the rest of us on how to play the game to the best of our ability, try harder difficulties, think about the game on a level we wouldn't have otherwise have had alot of their hard work thrown into obsucrity. 

   

[Foolsfolly]

Khayness wrote...

Such drastic combat changes reminds me of MMO patches in the bad way. I hated to change my playstyle and most of my gear every time a patch hit, I agree with the OP

And besides, combat balance is the least of DA2's problems.

Ever play Diablo 2 back in the day?

They had some patches that literally made me ill with rage. I'd have a powerful character one day, then the next a patch came out and my character was ****.

Boss battles went from hard to easy to unstoppable to somewhere in between. Skills were useless, over powered, then useless, and then needed when they came up with the Synergy idea (points into related skills improves the skill powers of other related skills).

It was frastrating. Whole characters would be abandoned and deleted as patches either made them complete mess (Pre-Synergy characters vs Post-Synergy characters) or nerfed the specific thing that character was geared around.

I especially remember the old Hammerdin a Paladin built around using Holy Hammer skill to great and terrifying effect. It was so over powered and so rampant on battle.net that the very next patch (since they existed because of a patch which made Holy Hammer skill worth investing a point into) they nerfed them so hard that next to no one played Paladin on battle.net after it.

That game, as fun as it was on battle.net, had some of the greatest and worst patches ever. For every great patch or good idea introduced to the game (and there were plenty) there was a patch that completely changed everything and you had to relearn and refocus your character building to compete with other players.

DA2's patch here changes some mechanics but not much. And it certaintly does not add new mechanics that throw everything to the wind.

The expansion set will likely do that.

Edited: to add the not, which is kind of important to that sentence.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 11 juin 2011 - 03:45 .

[gingerbill]

is this a troll post i assume? moaning because a game was patched . only on these forums .

1.03 was great , well played bioware.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Rovay wrote...

Overdramatic much?

This.   Hilarious post, OP.  Great job!  :lol:   It's like meta-satire.

[Foolsfolly]

Filament wrote...

Activity in the forums across the board was already dwindling.

How much is there really to talk about?

We just about covered everything in that first month and then came a few months of arguing about why this or how's that...and now...those arguements have played out. There's really not much more that can be said.

[AreleX]

I agree with panchamkauns.

One of my hopes in writing the class/build/party guides that I did was that I could leave behind things for everyone to enjoy and learn from, long after I myself stop playing the game.

The patch kinda ruined that.

I've put a lot of my time into helping people have fun and not feel like they wasted 60 dollars, and this patch rendered all of it useless. Not only did it make things useless, but it made the game worse as whole, and took away it's one irrefutable redeeming factor: the combat.. I'm just a little bothered by that.

[Foolsfolly]

Hey, I love your guides AreleX.

...

...

...I'm going to have to download the patch and play it again to see how this thing plays out aren't I? Because from the outside looking in it looks like a fairly good patch.

....eh, I'll do when some meaningful DLC comes out...probably.