148 réponses à ce sujet

[NobodyofConsequence]

Oh, and a question for everyone - given Wrex' is still alive in your play through, woudl you characterise him as renegade or paragon, or paragade or renegon? Might be an interesting way of drawing a bead on how we perceive Shep.

[CmndrFisher]

Uh Oh!..Damn, but what if I got the fish for the Krogans on the Citidel. does that count?

[SalsaDMA]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Why must everything be viewed as Renegades being "punished"? You do realize that those of us who landed on the Paragon side and saved the Rachni Queen are going to have to deal with Rachni husks, yes?

Are you telling me that with the info they released so far, you fully expect an entire line of enemies to be in the game depending on a choice you made in the first game?

While it would be novel of Bioware to do so, I seriously doubt queen killers are going to see any less rachnii husks than queen savers. I just don't see Bioware as having the balls to make decisions matter that much, especially with the mantra they keep repeating that "now is a great time for newcomers to enter the franchise".

Face it. They aren't making the game as much for those continuing the trilogy as they are making it for the numbers that didn't buy the previous games but they are hoping to attract with all the 'flash-bang action'. And a choice at the start of ME3 basicly being "do you want to face these kind of enemies too?" wouldn't be interesting game design for anyone new to the series.

The fact that the game is primarily being made for new players rather than those having gone through the first 2 games means that you shouldn't count on choices in those 2 games as being too important in the cause of the game. It's a shame, but appearantly EA prefers it like this, rather than doing the electronic artistic approach of letting ME3 be heavily reliable on the choices you made in the first 2 games, and then just ship ME1+2 as a bundle cheaply on the side, or even together with the 3rd product to give people the chance for the 'real' playthrough. Considering they threw copies of ME2 at people that bought DA2 to make 'amends', it's not like they couldn't afford to ship the earlier games together with ME3 in a bundle, or at a heavy discount in a bundle by themselves to attract ME3 customers that want the 'real ME experience'.

Wasted opportunities.

[marshalleck]

SalsaDMA wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Why must everything be viewed as Renegades being "punished"? You do realize that those of us who landed on the Paragon side and saved the Rachni Queen are going to have to deal with Rachni husks, yes?

Are you telling me that with the info they released so far, you fully expect an entire line of enemies to be in the game depending on a choice you made in the first game?

While it would be novel of Bioware to do so, I seriously doubt queen killers are going to see any less rachnii husks than queen savers. I just don't see Bioware as having the balls to make decisions matter that much, especially with the mantra they keep repeating that "now is a great time for newcomers to enter the franchise".

Face it. They aren't making the game as much for those continuing the trilogy as they are making it for the numbers that didn't buy the previous games but they are hoping to attract with all the 'flash-bang action'. And a choice at the start of ME3 basicly being "do you want to face these kind of enemies too?" wouldn't be interesting game design for anyone new to the series.

The fact that the game is primarily being made for new players rather than those having gone through the first 2 games means that you shouldn't count on choices in those 2 games as being too important in the cause of the game. It's a shame, but appearantly EA prefers it like this, rather than doing the electronic artistic approach of letting ME3 be heavily reliable on the choices you made in the first 2 games, and then just ship ME1+2 as a bundle cheaply on the side, or even together with the 3rd product to give people the chance for the 'real' playthrough. Considering they threw copies of ME2 at people that bought DA2 to make 'amends', it's not like they couldn't afford to ship the earlier games together with ME3 in a bundle, or at a heavy discount in a bundle by themselves to attract ME3 customers that want the 'real ME experience'.

Wasted opportunities.

Don't fret too much, Mass Effect may yet inspire a new generation of game developers to do a trilogy with real direct continuity. 

[Warkupo]

I can easily see the Rachni thing biting Paragons in the ass. You didn't really know it at the time, but the Reapers seem to have an easier time indoctrinating insectoid, hive-mind creatures like the Keepers, Rachni, and, to some extent, the Geth.

I don't think the Rachni-Queen will purposefully turn against you, not after your 'encounter' with her on Illium. More likely her intention will be good, but the Reapers will just indoctrinate all her children again regardless of what she was trying to do.

[FluffyScarf]

HL has more continuity. 

It's not exactly easy trying to carry multiple variables over and make it dramatic and meaningful. Unless you have 50 million dollars you wish to donate to BW, a time machine so it'll be completed within a decade and enough staff to cover every single choice. I can't think of a single recent game that even attempts to make decisions matter at the deepest level because its incredibly difficult (TW2 doesn't count as the import function is even more basic than M1/M2).

Modifié par FluffyScarf, 12 juin 2011 - 09:39 .

[TexasToast712]

Dannyboy9876 wrote...

You can be renegade AND make good choices, you know.

This. You are basically a badass with a heart of gold. Thats how I play my Shepards.

[NobodyofConsequence]

Warkupo wrote...

I can easily see the Rachni thing biting Paragons in the ass. You didn't really know it at the time, but the Reapers seem to have an easier time indoctrinating insectoid, hive-mind creatures like the Keepers, Rachni, and, to some extent, the Geth.

I don't think the Rachni-Queen will purposefully turn against you, not after your 'encounter' with her on Illium. More likely her intention will be good, but the Reapers will just indoctrinate all her children again regardless of what she was trying to do.

Plausible to me. Good point about the Hive mind thing too. Wonder if more 'individualistic' races would be harder to indoctrinate then, such as the Asari?

I'm also beginning to wonder if both choices will actually wind up balancing themselves out? Save the cheerleader Queen but have to deal with that part of her brood which gets indoctrinated, or kill the Queen and lose out on whatever plus she brings.

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

SalsaDMA wrote...

I just don't see Bioware as having the balls to make decisions matter that much, especially with the mantra they keep repeating that "now is a great time for newcomers to enter the franchise".

Face it. They aren't making the game as much for those continuing the trilogy as they are making it for the numbers that didn't buy the previous games but they are hoping to attract with all the 'flash-bang action'. And a choice at the start of ME3 basicly being "do you want to face these kind of enemies too?" wouldn't be interesting game design for anyone new to the series.

The fact that the game is primarily being made for new players rather than those having gone through the first 2 games means that you shouldn't count on choices in those 2 games as being too important in the cause of the game. It's a shame, but appearantly EA prefers it like this, rather than doing the electronic artistic approach of letting ME3 be heavily reliable on the choices you made in the first 2 games, and then just ship ME1+2 as a bundle cheaply on the side, or even together with the 3rd product to give people the chance for the 'real' playthrough. Considering they threw copies of ME2 at people that bought DA2 to make 'amends', it's not like they couldn't afford to ship the earlier games together with ME3 in a bundle, or at a heavy discount in a bundle by themselves to attract ME3 customers that want the 'real ME experience'.

Wasted opportunities.

This is very unfortunate, but true.  The games would have been way better if they hadn't cared about letting newcomers to the series start with the second or third games.  It makes no sense to me that somebody would want to start in the middle or end of the story instead of the beginning, but that's the way that some people do operate.

[JetsoverEverything]

TexasToast712 wrote...

Dannyboy9876 wrote...

You can be renegade AND make good choices, you know.

This. You are basically a badass with a heart of gold. Thats how I play my Shepards.

no because then your not full renegade.

[Pepper4]

renegades won't be punished for a simple reason:
Canon Shepard is renegade, therefore renegades are gonna be able to finish the game with the ultimate results.

Unless they decide to change the canon Shepard, but thats unlikey to happen imo.

[Obsidian Gryphon]

Generally, I didn't think saving the genophage data has anything to do with creating Krogan to fight the Reapers. The Krogans do not have the numbers they once have. If they join in the fight, that means a greater lost of numbers; a near decimation of the race. This is where the data will be useful in the aftermath; to help revive the race before they go the way of the Rachni.

On the Rachni, I have more in mind of their tech skills and numbers. The courier said they repaired her ship and it was better than before. What if their contribution comes mainly in the form of advance warships? Or providing ships that the others will not have the time to build. The Rachni Queen knows the Reapers are coming, she knows what had happened that caused her predecessors' annihilation. To provide ground support in the form of troops is not the answer, she has to seek other means to help Shepard.

[NobodyofConsequence]

Calinstel wrote...

NobodyofConsequence wrote...

Warkupo wrote...

I can easily see the Rachni thing biting Paragons in the ass. You didn't really know it at the time, but the Reapers seem to have an easier time indoctrinating insectoid, hive-mind creatures like the Keepers, Rachni, and, to some extent, the Geth.

I don't think the Rachni-Queen will purposefully turn against you, not after your 'encounter' with her on Illium. More likely her intention will be good, but the Reapers will just indoctrinate all her children again regardless of what she was trying to do.

Plausible to me. Good point about the Hive mind thing too. Wonder if more 'individualistic' races would be harder to indoctrinate then, such as the Asari?

I'm also beginning to wonder if both choices will actually wind up balancing themselves out? Save the cheerleader Queen but have to deal with that part of her brood which gets indoctrinated, or kill the Queen and lose out on whatever plus she brings.

Honestly, I don't think it matters if you killed or released the Rachni queen.  There will be rachni husks no matter what you chose as it was seen that thanks to Cerberus, the cat was already out of the bag.  There were 3 missions dealing specifically with these other rachni, there are most likely more out there.
Saving her just means you get more help in the end, nothing else.

Which suggests the paragon choice is the right meta-gaming choice?

Forgot about the other rachni. Wonder if Cerberus has a massive amount of cloned rachni soliders left lying around somewhere...

[jamesp81]

raist747 wrote...

There is no good or evil in the traditional sense in the Mass Effect games. I performed quite a few Paragon actions just to manipulate people to my own ends here and there.

This is not true.

There is always good and evil.  It's just that Bioware doesn't define it for us.

As for the OP.....well, I have a theory.

Renegades might not have as many races to help (like Rachni or Krogan, or Geth) but it might turn out that the results of the renegade path result in a generally stronger position for the major races starting out in ME3.  In ME2, you hear the news say that the Turians went into crash production of warships.  Renegades may not have Rachni, Geth, or Krogan help, but they will benefit from the arms race that the conclusion of ME1 brought on.

[jamesp81]

Obsidian Gryphon wrote...

Generally, I didn't think saving the genophage data has anything to do with creating Krogan to fight the Reapers. The Krogans do not have the numbers they once have. If they join in the fight, that means a greater lost of numbers; a near decimation of the race. This is where the data will be useful in the aftermath; to help revive the race before they go the way of the Rachni.

On the Rachni, I have more in mind of their tech skills and numbers. The courier said they repaired her ship and it was better than before. What if their contribution comes mainly in the form of advance warships? Or providing ships that the others will not have the time to build. The Rachni Queen knows the Reapers are coming, she knows what had happened that caused her predecessors' annihilation. To provide ground support in the form of troops is not the answer, she has to seek other means to help Shepard.

I think this is the key with respect to the Rachni.  They can reproduce and build at a frightening rate.  They can replace military losses and casualties very quickly.  They may become vital as a delaying force, since they can tolerate the losses, to give everyone else time to get their crap together.

[Sierra Crysis]

Personally, while playing the game it made no sense to me to pick one side constantly over the other. I just picked how I saw fit to pick and if there's consequences to that then yeah I want them. That's what is going to make the game shine in my book.
I picked primarily Paragon with a few key renegade choices, like for instance, I'll give you my main choices

In ME1, I Killed Ballak and didn't rescue the hostages: Millions more could be at risk and I can't be everywhere at once. It's one and a million that I find him again before he wrecks some other colony.

Saved the Rachni Queen.: Extinction is a hard word to swallow. I personally would've had a fleet lockdown the planet to prevent spread after that but give them a 'chance'

Saved the Council: Strategically speaking, to me, it made no sense to wait until the Geth destroys all the citadel's defenders before throwing your fleet in... Defenders + fleet = more of a threat?

Killed the Geth Heretics: Seemed honestly less evil than brain washing them, and there were too many variables in there that could go wrong.

Destroyed the Genophage data & Killed Mordin's old team member:  I believe in Mordin's numbers, and the Krogan population isn't dying with what they have, despite all the complaints they seem to be in no short supply And I firmly support Wrex's idea rather than just letting them overpopulate the galaxy again until they're testosteroning all over everyone's breathing room. Also. I couldn't trust the scientist with that kind've information, he could start over or tell anyone else; or more importantly, he was smart enough to seek vengence later. People like that just don't get to walk away, not after experimenting on human and krogan beings.

Didn't share Tali's Father data: This was for Tali, but also because the Geth don't need to be controlled, they need to cooperate with the Quarians. I did put my vote for the quarians to search for peace instead of war, and almost always insisted Tali finds a new home.

Destroyed the Collector Base: Every attempt to study reaper tech has ended up as a complete disaster. It's like watching an Alien's movie and them getting the bright idea to study another face-hugger. The corporate people may never learn, but when it's in my hands, you better be certain that I know where the next high powered bomb is going to go; The fact that thousands of people were liquidated and made into a giant reaper human skeletal torso that tried to mangle me is just icing on the cake.

When playing that way, I normally end up full Paragon with about a quarter Renegade, which is fine for me because I typically play diplomatically and are nice to my friends. Occasionally I'll stick an electrical thing in some smoking batarian's back that attempted to give me cancer or push a ****** out the window. Not to mention basically torturing that jerk that hit on me in the first, or having a warm-up session on the criminal on the Citadel's face. Meh... Statistics. I play renegade when it's beneficial too, or because the paragon option is better than what the guy deserves, not to look cool doing it.

[Bnol]

The difficulty of the combat in the game is unlikely going to be altered by the choices you make in the story. They can easily explain away divisions and partial indoctrinations etc. to have the same battles and creatures that you have to fight. You aren't going to have a harder or easier "final" boss battle. Just like you don't have a harder or easier final boss battle on the suicide mission, since you protect your squad from death until after the final battle (sure you lose Thane, Legion/Tali, and Jack if you don't upgrade, but I don't think upgrading is a Paragon/Renegade distinction).

Rather, the decisions will alter the final form of the story. Who will rise to power, who will be wiped off the face of the galaxy. Hey, a Paragon might destroy the human race by being such a nice guy to everyone and save the rest of the galaxy, possibly only Shepard survives (unless of course you kept Ash/Miranda alive and romanced, then you could have the whole biblical angle). Maybe Shepard doesn't survive because he sacrifices himself to save the Galaxy.

A renegade option might make the Galaxy as a whole stronger militarily, as if they don't believe in a Reaper threat, and are all friendly with one another there is no reason to have a continued arms race. With nobody trusting each other they are forced to build military might. Thus, with all Renegade choices every species is more ready for the fight.

It is funny that a lot of people think that they favor Paragons in the game, considering the default story from ME1 to ME2 was an all Renegade story. Killed Queen, Wrex dead, Council Dead. They want new people to come into the game so they won't let them "lose" solely based on the default story.

[Kadzin]

Honestly though, if you are an **** to every single person you meet you don't deserve to have the benefits that come with being nice to everyone.
Should have seen it coming.

[Azjurai]

Unless it takes less than a year to grow/train a full Krogan warrior, I don't think saving/deleting the genophage data is going to impact how they can really help.

Willingness to do so, sure, but ability to? Eh...

EDIT; Decided to run though the OP point by point :3

.1 Killed the Rachni queen - No help from the Rachni during the Game.

Renegades might fight rachni husks in lower numbers, making some missions easier to complete. Could also make stopping reapers easier due to a much weaker ground-force from them on some planets? Could also win big kudos from the Krogans for not selling out their history to make nice-nice with the bug-folk (or could make'em angry you killed off a 'good fight' :3).

.2 Let the Citadel Council die - Council Races will be a lot harder to persuade.

While harder to persuade, they're also more militant and armed to combat the reaper threat. Might distrust humans certainly (which is a stupid political move anyway, but I digress), but the enemy of my enemy and all that.. Reapers are a little more of an issue than "You killed our council rep!". As I recall after losing the DA and a handful of folks they sort of markedly upped their ship construction and basically blew off the Treaty of Firaxen about dreadnaught numbers. Could be sort of helpful.

.3 Destroyed the Genophage data - Krogan will not be able to help in a significant way.

See initial statement.

.4 Destroyed the heretic Geth - Geth won't have enough forces to fully to battle the Reaper.

Rewriting isn't really a better option. Being as the Geth believe in self-determination and share all their information, how do you think they'll react when the learn Shepard forced them to a specific point of view without their consensus? For all we know, this will make them far more hostile. Blowing them up could also stave off any 'unstable' elements that could sway their viewpoints later towards being more pro-reaper should the heretics upload and the program miss rewriting anything. Besides, who's to say it would even help in the short term? On a station that size you're bound to have missed more than one or two mobile geth platforms, when they upload back into the collective and share their programming the rewriting may have been worthless anyway.

.5 Sell Legion to Cerberus - All geth will be hostile, and you will have not Geth ally at all.

Combine this with the Overlord program and it's entirely possible Cerberus can directly control the Geth in any event. Not only making them a non-human shock troop type asset for the reaper war, but a valuable tool against the other council races if they get all uppity down the track. How would they know you sold Legion off anyway? He was deactivated when you found him, had no way to contact the other Geth from your ship and was being kept in containment at a Cerberus facility (no way of knowing what info - if any - he managed to send from there).

.6 Presented the truth at Tali's trial -Migrant fleet too conflicted an not being able to help much.

It could also prove to be the wake-up call they need, spurring them into action to militarize their fleet. Instead of a large fleet with a few guns we could have on our side a large fleet with a lot of guns, willing to help fight any form of AI. Alternatively, some of the fleet may have gone off to explore new areas of the galaxy way outside known space to try and find a new homeworld (as in the books) and uncover new tech/sentients to help fight etc.


No way of knowing how/what will happen until we get to play. Everything is all speculation and rumor at this point. I have faith BW will figure out a way to not have all renegade actions be all 'Ha, you're screwed' and all paragon actions be all 'here's some cake, you can eat it too!'.

Modifié par Azjurai, 14 juin 2011 - 09:30 .

[Bnol]

SalsaDMA wrote...

The fact that the game is primarily being made for new players rather than those having gone through the first 2 games means that you shouldn't count on choices in those 2 games as being too important in the cause of the game. It's a shame, but appearantly EA prefers it like this, rather than doing the electronic artistic approach of letting ME3 be heavily reliable on the choices you made in the first 2 games, and then just ship ME1+2 as a bundle cheaply on the side, or even together with the 3rd product to give people the chance for the 'real' playthrough. Considering they threw copies of ME2 at people that bought DA2 to make 'amends', it's not like they couldn't afford to ship the earlier games together with ME3 in a bundle, or at a heavy discount in a bundle by themselves to attract ME3 customers that want the 'real ME experience'.

Wasted opportunities.

The game isn't being released until March.  They still have the ability to sell a bundle closer to the release date to get new players into the game.  So it isn't necessarily out of the picture.  Although, I do find it funny that you think that they aren't in it to make money.  You make money by getting the most people to purchase the game.  They don't have to cater to the devoted fans, because they know we are going to buy ME3 anyways if we have enjoyed ME1 and ME2.  That isn't to say we won't be rewarded for our devotion, it just won't be that the only way to "win" is if you play the first two games.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Pepper4 wrote...

renegades won't be punished for a simple reason:
Canon Shepard is renegade, therefore renegades are gonna be able to finish the game with the ultimate results.

Unless they decide to change the canon Shepard, but thats unlikey to happen imo.

Just to bring the argument against this point and also Salsa's comment about the Rachni.

Sure for anyone who started off with ME2 and didn't go get the Genesis or go buy ME and start anew, all the decisions 'default' shep picked are the neutral/renegade ones from ME. BUT... firstly, it isn't classed as 'canon' there is no canon in Mass Effect other than things outside of Shepards control or if you account for Arrival.

Going on further with regards Genesis, the comment about new players coming into ME3, they'll have the ME3 edition of this which will feature the Rachni choice which means that Bioware could indeed have it that Renegade Shep isn't facing Rachni husks. That said, just to slightly agree with you, everyone thought the Rachni extinct before ME and we found some and even if you did the sidequest where got to kill some more, we didn't visit every planet in the galaxy and there still could be some out there, but the thing is there could be less of them, just as there could be less geth to fight depending on choice with regards Legion and the Heretics.

So basically it could be like this, Renegade ain't got as many allies, but Renegade has thinned the number of enemy too

[WizenSlinky0]

Well, I think a big part of the renegade choices tends to gear towards a human dominated society. Even if you weaken your overall forces...once you stop the reapers...the lack of other races cohesion and reduced strength from your actions are literally going to propel humanity as the defacto leader of the galaxy.

[jamesp81]

Bnol wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

The fact that the game is primarily being made for new players rather than those having gone through the first 2 games means that you shouldn't count on choices in those 2 games as being too important in the cause of the game. It's a shame, but appearantly EA prefers it like this, rather than doing the electronic artistic approach of letting ME3 be heavily reliable on the choices you made in the first 2 games, and then just ship ME1+2 as a bundle cheaply on the side, or even together with the 3rd product to give people the chance for the 'real' playthrough. Considering they threw copies of ME2 at people that bought DA2 to make 'amends', it's not like they couldn't afford to ship the earlier games together with ME3 in a bundle, or at a heavy discount in a bundle by themselves to attract ME3 customers that want the 'real ME experience'.

Wasted opportunities.

The game isn't being released until March.  They still have the ability to sell a bundle closer to the release date to get new players into the game.  So it isn't necessarily out of the picture.  Although, I do find it funny that you think that they aren't in it to make money.  You make money by getting the most people to purchase the game.  They don't have to cater to the devoted fans, because they know we are going to buy ME3 anyways if we have enjoyed ME1 and ME2.  That isn't to say we won't be rewarded for our devotion, it just won't be that the only way to "win" is if you play the first two games.

I agree,  I think there will be a path to complete victory (save Earth, save galaxy, kill Reapers) no matter your choices in the previous games.  Your previous choices will affect what path you take.