351 réponses à ce sujet

[leeboi2]

Lol whut? It had one character that jumped a bit silly so it's a JRPG?...

[Skaden]

I really enjoy JRPGs but for me the big thing here is consistancy, when we go from DAO which was obviously fantasy but seemed to overall feel realistic in things such as combat to DA2 which features rogues moving so fast it looks like teleporting, warriors who can jump 5 feet with heavy armour and that weird scene with Meredeth jumping 20 feet, thats where I have a problem. None of those things would bother me if this was the first game in a franchise, but as a sequel to a game like DAO it just feels out of place and makes DA seem like that kid from junior high who is uncomfortable in his own skin and thus constantly tries to change himself into someone he thinks others want.

[astrallite]

This game is so ugly I don't know what part makes you think it looks like a JRPG...unless your only argument is Fenris.

[erynnar]

mrcrusty wrote...

While neither Origins or Dragon Age 2 had "realistic" 2h sword swings in the sense of the word, the combat animations (as a whole) of Origins felt much more appropriate for the setting than Dragon Age 2's. I got the impression that much of the gameplay and animations in Dragon Age 2 were made to be "cool for the sake of cool" rather than making them appropriate for the setting. While I felt that Origins animations were too slow and that the shuffle was really annoying, I'd rather have them as a whole than what Dragon Age 2 presented. Although, ideally, a medium between the two could be reached.

When you have ninja parachuting spawns, blatantly over exaggerated combat animations along with the frameskips and exploding enemies (though I hear that's fixed now), it's hard to take the game seriously. Especially when it's contrasted with a narrative that's aimed to be realistic and grounded. It creates this inconsistency that conflicts with the setting/narrative and (for me), makes the suspension of disbelief all the harder to maintain.

This^ Definitely this. The story was supposed to be grounded and personal, but the combat was not appropriate for the setting and story.

[In Exile]

Xewaka wrote...
Is there a reasoning behind this? Other than the fact that some people felt the combat needed more flashiness?

It's the same kind of objection as the one I have to silent PC + voiced NPCs - the inconsistency drives me half insane. 

In DA:O, the game tried to look realistic. Tried is the operative word, because it didn't actually look realistic. It wasn't the speed, it was how the weapons were used, how the damage was distributed, how magic worked... the entire mix of it just seemed ridiculous.

Moving slowly != real combat. Realistic armour != getting literally doused in fire 5 times in a 3 minute span. 

If we are going for a realistic aesthetic, I would much rather have something like in TW1-2 (with more proper looking leather pauldrons and medieval armour styles). 

mrcrusty wrote...
Cure worse than the disease, perhaps? I think it's possible to make the combat more responsive and faster without going over the top like Dragon Age 2 had. Likely, BioWare will try to aim for that if/when a Dragon Age 3 gets developed. It (OTT) would've worked better, had it been a new setting, but in an established setting, coherence in tone is an important area for me for "immersion", especially in a narrative-heavy game. 

But DA:O didn't take itself seriously. The lore reads like low magic... but the gameplay breaks that. Hell, the gameplay breaks melee combat, when you compare what an Ogre does in cutscenes and what it does in combat. 

I just haven't seen a Bioware RPG worth taking seriously vis a vis visuals yet.

If a game contradicts it's narrative or established setting in tone internationally, that's the equivalent of the game not taking itself seriously. Therefore, why should the player take the game seriously? I had the same problem with Fallout 2. It eventually won me over, but it undoubtedly changed the Fallout setting in a way which I wouldn't consider a good way as far as taking the game's narrative and setting seriously goes.

I agree with you, but I think DA:O didn't take itself seriously. 

[Huntress]

erynnar wrote...

mrcrusty wrote...

While neither Origins or Dragon Age 2 had "realistic" 2h sword swings in the sense of the word, the combat animations (as a whole) of Origins felt much more appropriate for the setting than Dragon Age 2's. I got the impression that much of the gameplay and animations in Dragon Age 2 were made to be "cool for the sake of cool" rather than making them appropriate for the setting. While I felt that Origins animations were too slow and that the shuffle was really annoying, I'd rather have them as a whole than what Dragon Age 2 presented. Although, ideally, a medium between the two could be reached.

When you have ninja parachuting spawns, blatantly over exaggerated combat animations along with the frameskips and exploding enemies (though I hear that's fixed now), it's hard to take the game seriously. Especially when it's contrasted with a narrative that's aimed to be realistic and grounded. It creates this inconsistency that conflicts with the setting/narrative and (for me), makes the suspension of disbelief all the harder to maintain.

This^ Definitely this. The story was supposed to be grounded and personal, but the combat was not appropriate for the setting and story.

Watch Morrigan fight:

[erynnar]

Huntress wrote...

erynnar wrote...

mrcrusty wrote...

While neither Origins or Dragon Age 2 had "realistic" 2h sword swings in the sense of the word, the combat animations (as a whole) of Origins felt much more appropriate for the setting than Dragon Age 2's. I got the impression that much of the gameplay and animations in Dragon Age 2 were made to be "cool for the sake of cool" rather than making them appropriate for the setting. While I felt that Origins animations were too slow and that the shuffle was really annoying, I'd rather have them as a whole than what Dragon Age 2 presented. Although, ideally, a medium between the two could be reached.

When you have ninja parachuting spawns, blatantly over exaggerated combat animations along with the frameskips and exploding enemies (though I hear that's fixed now), it's hard to take the game seriously. Especially when it's contrasted with a narrative that's aimed to be realistic and grounded. It creates this inconsistency that conflicts with the setting/narrative and (for me), makes the suspension of disbelief all the harder to maintain.

This^ Definitely this. The story was supposed to be grounded and personal, but the combat was not appropriate for the setting and story.

Watch Morrigan fight:

Well okay, I'll give you the poking the air with a stick animation. I do like the mage animations in DA2. It just needs to be slowed down a bit. They fight like they're hiped on crank.

[Harid]

astrallite wrote...

This game is so ugly I don't know what part makes you think it looks like a JRPG...unless your only argument is Fenris.

Fenris would be an argument if someone played like. . .FFVII and FFVIII and never played a jrpg again, but honestly, the cliche in JRPGs for main characters are the overly cheery, optimistic, naive main character rather than an angsty jerk.  So if they were making a statement against JRPGs Fenris was a bad model to build that statement against.

I honestly can't remember the last angsty jerk in a JRPG as a main character since those days.

[Ryzaki]

Harid wrote...

astrallite wrote...

This game is so ugly I don't know what part makes you think it looks like a JRPG...unless your only argument is Fenris.

Fenris would be an argument if someone played like. . .FFVII and FFVIII and never played a jrpg again, but honestly, the cliche in JRPGs for main characters are the overly cheery, optimistic, naive main character rather than an angsty jerk.  So if they were making a statement against JRPGs Fenris was a bad model to build that statement against.

I honestly can't remember the last angsty jerk in a JRPG as a main character since those days.

Me neither. Most of them are either stoic cool guys or so chipper I want to kick them in the face. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 juillet 2011 - 08:34 .

[Huntress]

erynnar wrote...

Huntress wrote...

erynnar wrote...

mrcrusty wrote...

While neither Origins or Dragon Age 2 had "realistic" 2h sword swings in the sense of the word, the combat animations (as a whole) of Origins felt much more appropriate for the setting than Dragon Age 2's. I got the impression that much of the gameplay and animations in Dragon Age 2 were made to be "cool for the sake of cool" rather than making them appropriate for the setting. While I felt that Origins animations were too slow and that the shuffle was really annoying, I'd rather have them as a whole than what Dragon Age 2 presented. Although, ideally, a medium between the two could be reached.

When you have ninja parachuting spawns, blatantly over exaggerated combat animations along with the frameskips and exploding enemies (though I hear that's fixed now), it's hard to take the game seriously. Especially when it's contrasted with a narrative that's aimed to be realistic and grounded. It creates this inconsistency that conflicts with the setting/narrative and (for me), makes the suspension of disbelief all the harder to maintain.

This^ Definitely this. The story was supposed to be grounded and personal, but the combat was not appropriate for the setting and story.

Watch Morrigan fight:

Well okay, I'll give you the poking the air with a stick animation. I do like the mage animations in DA2. It just needs to be slowed down a bit. They fight like they're hiped on crank.

Agree that the fight is a bit fast but, dao was too slow..

[Tirfan]

^ No, it was not. And on the mage animations.. please, get rid of the 4th attack (if I recall correctly) that was the most horrifying of them.. ugh. I hate it. Otherwise they were decent and I really liked the 5th strike for some reason.

[Harid]

Ryzaki wrote...

Harid wrote...

astrallite wrote...

This game is so ugly I don't know what part makes you think it looks like a JRPG...unless your only argument is Fenris.

Fenris would be an argument if someone played like. . .FFVII and FFVIII and never played a jrpg again, but honestly, the cliche in JRPGs for main characters are the overly cheery, optimistic, naive main character rather than an angsty jerk.  So if they were making a statement against JRPGs Fenris was a bad model to build that statement against.

I honestly can't remember the last angsty jerk in a JRPG as a main character since those days.

Me neither. Most of them are either stoic cool guys or so chipper I want to kick them in the face. 

Agreed on this front.

[erynnar]

Tirfan wrote...

^ No, it was not. And on the mage animations.. please, get rid of the 4th attack (if I recall correctly) that was the most horrifying of them.. ugh. I hate it. Otherwise they were decent and I really liked the 5th strike for some reason.

I can't help it, I love them all because I am a martial arts junkie. *blushes*

I am playing DAO again and I don't find the combat too slow either. But I can see a comprimise of the speeds in the middle from DAO and DA2.

[Tirfan]

^ Yeah, middle-ground speewise & ability to equip ranged weapons on everyone and you shouldn't need to be in some metaphysical state of combat before you can start to actually attack the enemies would do a lot in terms of enjoyment combatwise for me (+ fixing the balance issues & encounter design issues)... I see the enemies on few occasion, but I can't attack them because they haven't ambushed me yet... Wait, What?

[Nashiktal]

I half agree on the speed of combat. I liked how some of the combat moves looked for certain classes.

For example I loved how the mages fought, close and long range. However I think they need to tone down the exaggeration as sometimes when my mages were doing sub-par damage it seemed silly that such fantastical moves were doing so little damage.

However Rogues were just silly. The rolling was fine, but the kicking of flasks, the flipping and ninja moves... Well it just got plain silly, especially with the exploding enemies.

[MonkeyKaboom]

furryrage59 wrote...

MonkeyKaboom wrote...

A lot of people seem to think that slow (as in DA:O) is somehow more realistic.  The flippy stuff was over the top but it just goes to show how little people know about actual fighting.  

www.youtube.com/watch

These are just technique demonstrations.  But it does show just how precise a 2 hand weapon can be.  It is not an unwieldy beastly weapon.  It is built for range.  In Musashi's Book of 5 Rings he talks of the reach of a daito and in battle you must avoid being "entangled" in the weapon when weilding a shorter blade.  A weapon that is slow is a weapon that is useless.  Imagine these great sword techs above being utilized in real time.  Then add to that the fact that against an armored enemy there are only a few precise points that can effectively be targeted (openings around the armpits, neck).  There is nothing realistic at all about a 7 foot man mountain (Sten) swinging a sword once every 10 seconds. 

That's a long sword, not a great sword as used in Dragon age 2.

Also, http://www.youtube.c...?v=_hfLZozBVpM.

Look at how unbalanced he becomes when he does a powerful swing, certainly isn't swinging like a meth addicted crack bunny. To effectively use two handed weapons in DA:O you use abilities instead of 'just' swinging. Which doesn't take ten seconds which is just a flat out lie.

Long sword and great sword both refer to the same things depending on which time period you are referring to and which terminology set.  If you really want to get technical the only sword correctly termed long sword is a bastard sword.  But again, it depends on the time frame and terminology you are referring to.  But in all practical purposes there is no difference.  The terms are broadly inclusive and can be further divided into numerous subgroups of varying blade length.  And the largest of which still only reach about 6lbs in weight.  So again, the point is moot.

And imagine that.  A fat guy with no training can't swing right.  You know that just shows more to my point right?  That regardless of the size, it is actually a skill required weapon, not some beastly monstrousity.  If he extended his step another foot and a half and followed through with his body instead of standing rigid like he has a broom stick up his back end, it would have been much better.

[MonkeyKaboom]

xkg wrote...

^ TRUE.

and MonkeyKaboom@, i hope you noticed that those dude in your video aren't wearing any armor ?

But even without armor thery are rather slow compared to this:



+ If you watch closely you can see that Hawke is using 1 hand to swing 2h great sword   lol

I hope you correct your habit of selective reasoning and notice I prefaced it with say that it was a demonstration video.  Which further shows my point, yet again.  A blade of this size STILL has to be wielded with skillful accuracy, ESPECIALLY as you noted, when they add in armor.  As I have also already stated.  Try reading before you post yo.  Imagine those same techniques in real time with addition of armor, which further limits you target options.  You cannot use a weapon that cannot be precisely applied.  The sword, regardless of the size, is not this mythical idea of a massive blade chopping people in two, and 50 lbs or any of that other garbage people think.  It is wielded with accuracy and speed first, power comes next.  Even more so with more armor.  A blade is not a percussion weapon.  That's what maces and to an extent axes are for.  The only attack that requires force is a blow to the head, which is more blunt trauma than blade cutting.  The others are pinpoint piercing attacks to weak points in armor.

[xkg]

^ I think you missed my point completly.

You started your post with
"A lot of people seem to think that slow (as in DA:O) is somehow more realistic"

So when im talking about the armor i mean - how much it weight and how it can hinder your ability to swing 2h sword at this rate and speed for entire fight.

My advice - think before posting - because your beauty speech about precise striking and pinpoint piercing has nothing to do with it.



But ok. Lets play your game for a while.

If you think that you have better chance to aim and hit with precision at small armor's openings with this speed (i'll just repost my link)

than with that of DAO then i wish you luck.

Modifié par xkg, 12 juillet 2011 - 12:35 .

[Vicious]

The only thing that frustrated me in terms of feeling JRPGish was the combat. Specifically that the melee weapons had a complete lack of weight to them. Every animation cycled over and over, zero randomness, nothing to give you the idea that they were actually HITTING anything as opposed to just swinging their swords.

That, and the chunky giblets and removal of the deathblow animations. Yes, I like flavor, and the chunky giblets were not some bizarre homage to Baldur's Gate 1/2 [which featured them as well.] rather, the chunky giblets were pretty much just thrown in there.


If they want to be like 'our world is like a song of ice and fire-esque dark fantasy' then they need to actually try and make it look fast and brutal.

DA:O was too slow, but DA2 went too far in the opposite direction to make it look completely fake.

The fakeness is the primary reason why I won't replay DA2, the combat [90% of the game sadly] just looks and feels stupid.
My buddies popping in to visit think it looks stupid,
My wife thinks it looks stupid,
and my son wants a DA:O with Hawke.

So JRPG? No, not really [except for the whole flying in the air bit at the end of Act 3... you know what i'm talking about, that felt like it came out of some anime flick]. They just took DA:O and went in the opposite direction of it.

And by the critical and fan reception, it didn't really work. I am confident they will find a middle ground in DA3 and beyond.


Hopefully they can make the melee combat a little less silly looking. Bring back dodges parries and blocks.

Don't just have the warriors use the same canned animations over and over like they are swinging at air, while chunky giblets rain down around them.

[txgoldrush]

This JRPG >>>>>> Dragon Age Origins

Oh, and in this game, your choices matter even more than they do in the DA series, its far more mature in its storytelling and dark fantasy environment than the DA series, and is better written than DAII and most definitely Origins.

Hell, it even challanges the Witcher in choice and consquence.

JRPGs have stagnated, especially on consoles, but the handheld JRPGs have evolved.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 12 juillet 2011 - 02:08 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

I'm inclined to agree, my favorite JRPGs are Strategy RPGs like Tactics Ogre and FFT. Loved the gameplay, but the storytelling was great and far superior to the average RPG (Japanese or otherwise). Then again, I'd consider those games classics and their wRPG equivalents would be the Fallouts and Planescape: Torments of the world, not Origins and certainly not Dragon Age 2. Though I don't know if you want to make the point about stagnation using Tactics Ogre. It came out in the 90s, remember?

Modifié par mrcrusty, 12 juillet 2011 - 02:21 .

[Harid]

txgoldrush wrote...



This JRPG >>>>>> Dragon Age Origins

Oh, and in this game, your choices matter even more than they do in the DA series, its far more mature in its storytelling and dark fantasy environment than the DA series, and is better written than DAII and most definitely Origins.

Hell, it even challanges the Witcher in choice and consquence.

JRPGs have stagnated, especially on consoles, but the handheld JRPGs have evolved.

This game does Bioware Storytelling™ better than any Bioware game I have played, and I hope people at Bioware are playing it and learning something, rather than trolling jrpgs they played 10 years ago.

If only they trimmed the grinding. . .

Modifié par Harid, 12 juillet 2011 - 02:19 .

[erynnar]

Tirfan wrote...

^ Yeah, middle-ground speewise & ability to equip ranged weapons on everyone and you shouldn't need to be in some metaphysical state of combat before you can start to actually attack the enemies would do a lot in terms of enjoyment combatwise for me (+ fixing the balance issues & encounter design issues)... I see the enemies on few occasion, but I can't attack them because they haven't ambushed me yet... Wait, What?

Yeah I miss equipping sword users with a crossbow. Seriously? A crossbow is rocket science? They can't learn to use both? And the waiting until they ambushed me drove me bonkers too.

[erynnar]

Nashiktal wrote...

I half agree on the speed of combat. I liked how some of the combat moves looked for certain classes.

For example I loved how the mages fought, close and long range. However I think they need to tone down the exaggeration as sometimes when my mages were doing sub-par damage it seemed silly that such fantastical moves were doing so little damage.

However Rogues were just silly. The rolling was fine, but the kicking of flasks, the flipping and ninja moves... Well it just got plain silly, especially with the exploding enemies.

See, and I loved the rogue moves too. Kicking the flask was so much fun. But I'm a martial arts junky and I have my Warden rogue doing things like that in my fanfic (well not the flask, thing but the rolls and kicks). I did give her a plausible reason for it. But I love the rogue moves too, but they are really silly when they are at such high speeds. I think they might be more palitable if they were slowed down. It might be more like a Jackie Chan thing rather than "Kill Bill" (which I loved, but yes, it was silly combat).