351 réponses à ce sujet

[Rawgrim]

The Arishok impaling my Hawke on his swords 17 times during my fight with him, seemed very very jrpg to me. Reminded me of Soul Calibur, actually. Add oversized ears to the elves into the mix, and its looking more and more jrpg by the minute.

[Zanallen]

Rawgrim wrote...

The Arishok impaling my Hawke on his swords 17 times during my fight with him, seemed very very jrpg to me. Reminded me of Soul Calibur, actually. Add oversized ears to the elves into the mix, and its looking more and more jrpg by the minute.

But a dragon scooping up your Warden, shaking him about in its jaws, tossing him through the air and then slamming him to the ground is just fine?

Or an ogre lifting your Warden into the air and pummeling him before slamming him into the ground? Cailen was crushed to death in full armor by an ogre, but its cool for your Warden to take just as much if not more punishment?

Modifié par Zanallen, 13 juin 2011 - 04:34 .

[Rawgrim]

Yes. Since I didn`t see the teeth go through him. I allways assumed the plate armour protected him. In the Arishok battle, I saw (clearly) The sword go through Hawke, and then lifted him up. 17 times...(Yes, I counted).

[T764]

Very Soul Calibur, as opposed to very Mortal Kombat.
I was under the impression that Soul Calibur was a beat 'em up not an rpg.

[Zanallen]

Rawgrim wrote...

Yes. Since I didn`t see the teeth go through him. I allways assumed the plate armour protected him. In the Arishok battle, I saw (clearly) The sword go through Hawke, and then lifted him up. 17 times...(Yes, I counted).

Even if the armor protected him, the force of being swung around like that would have dislocated limbs if not outright broken the Warden's neck. Not to mention being thrown to the ground from that height. There is no way the Warden would have gotten up from that without a scratch. Same with the ogre's pummel. Cailen was crushed to death through his massive plate armor. The Warden gets equal if not more punishment and is just fine afterwards. Unrealistic. Of course, you won't recognize that because Origins is all that is good while DA2 is complete crap, right?

[Bejos_]

Zanallen, I think the problem isn't that there are inconsistencies in the combat-- any game is going to have those; it's a game-- but rather that there are so many of them. They are blatant throughout the whole experience. If it happened once or twice (or with one or two abilities only), that would be fine. You can hand-wave that with "For Story Purposes" or "Because This Is Supposed To Be The Ultimate Ability In That Skill Tree".
When it happens all the time? There's not really a justification for that, unless you're playing a JRPG. And players didn't expect a JRPG going into this experience.

[Zanallen]

Bejos_ wrote...

Zanallen, I think the problem isn't that there are inconsistencies in the combat-- any game is going to have those; it's a game-- but rather that there are so many of them. They are blatant throughout the whole experience. If it happened once or twice (or with one or two abilities only), that would be fine. You can hand-wave that with "For Story Purposes" or "Because This Is Supposed To Be The Ultimate Ability In That Skill Tree".
When it happens all the time? There's not really a justification for that, unless you're playing a JRPG. And players didn't expect a JRPG going into this experience.

The issue here is that DA2 isn't really anything like a JRPG. I know because I play a lot of JRPGs. The issue is also that people are placing Origins on a golden pedestal that it certainly doesn't deserve while pointing out critical issues with DA2 that are present in both games. It is ridiculous. If you don't like DA2, that's fine. A good number of people don't. But it is silly to attack it for things that are present in both games while also presenting Origins as how it should have been done. Is Dragon Age 2 more stylized? Sure. Bioware wanted to create a new look that was unique to Dragon Age while also increasing the pace of combat. YMMV on how successful they were.

[T764]

The only time i thought that DA2 resembled a jrpg/anime was the Hawke v's The Arishok cg trailer, the signs were there people refused to acknowledge them.

The combat movements in DA2, as fast as they are, are still slow and ponderous compared those of a jrpg, It's also fun to note that jrpg combat does tend to be more subdued with the outlandish movements for cut scenes and special abilities.

The comparisons are often used in "i am justifying my dislike by comparison to other things i hate" arguments.

[Funkjoker]

T764 wrote...

From the arguments you put foward you appear to hate jrpgs because they are jrpgs not because they are cliched or don't evolve.   

Wrong. I dislike JRPGs because they are cliched and don't evolve. They didn't make any progress apart from technical aspects the last years.

[Zanallen]

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...

Wrong. I dislike JRPGs because they are cliched and don't evolve. They didn't make any progress apart from technical aspects the last years.

And you also have no real evidence to support your sweeping statements that JRPGs are cliched and don't evolve or to show your implied point that WRPGs are not cliched and do evolve.

[Bejos_]

Zanallen wrote...

Bejos_ wrote...

Zanallen, I think the problem isn't that there are inconsistencies in the combat-- any game is going to have those; it's a game-- but rather that there are so many of them. They are blatant throughout the whole experience. If it happened once or twice (or with one or two abilities only), that would be fine. You can hand-wave that with "For Story Purposes" or "Because This Is Supposed To Be The Ultimate Ability In That Skill Tree".
When it happens all the time? There's not really a justification for that, unless you're playing a JRPG. And players didn't expect a JRPG going into this experience.

The issue here is that DA2 isn't really anything like a JRPG. I know because I play a lot of JRPGs. The issue is also that people are placing Origins on a golden pedestal that it certainly doesn't deserve while pointing out critical issues with DA2 that are present in both games. It is ridiculous. If you don't like DA2, that's fine. A good number of people don't. But it is silly to attack it for things that are present in both games while also presenting Origins as how it should have been done. Is Dragon Age 2 more stylized? Sure. Bioware wanted to create a new look that was unique to Dragon Age while also increasing the pace of combat. YMMV on how successful they were.

The above was my attempt to read behind the reactionary comments. I don't think DA:O was perfect. The first time I played it, I switched it off after 1 hour, and didn't touch it for another year. The second time I played it, I thought it was great (not at all perfect, though).

I've also played a lot of JRPGs, and I've enjoyed a lot of them. The anime art direction, the OTT combat, the repetitive environments (not present in all JRPGs, but a very significant number of them)-- these are all JRPG hallmarks. While you can't call DA2 a "pure" JRPG, I think that by mixing the worst aspects of FPSs, actions game and WRPGs, Bioware did, accidentally or not, end up with a (bad) JRPG. A bit funny, considering that an employee is on record as deriding JRPGs.

I do think DA:O was far superior to DA2, certainly in variety (of quests; of monsters; of environments; of characters). That doesn't have anything to do with it not fitting the JRPG genre-- I can think of a few JRPGs that I'd probably rank higher than DA:O.

I hope you're not arguing against DA2's inclusion as a JRPG just because it sucks, because a lot of games, JRPGs, WRPGs, ARPGs and FPSs, suck. I think if you look at it completely objectively, it's a valid conclusion; maybe not the only conclusion, but it is a valid one.

Modifié par Bejos_, 13 juin 2011 - 05:26 .

[Lykang]

www.youtube.com/watch

www.youtube.com/watch

Ideas for DA3 combat  

Modifié par Lykang, 13 juin 2011 - 05:31 .

[Zanallen]

I think that DA 2 is a WRPG that suffered from a short development cycle. With the revamp of the engine and changes to key features (Combat, approval, customization, etc), there was not enough time to make the game as good as it could be. I don't think DA 2 sucked. I actually liked it. I just don't see it resembling a JRPG very much. Nor does it really have an anime feel.

[Funkjoker]

Zanallen wrote...

And you also have no real evidence to support your sweeping statements that JRPGs are cliched and don't evolve or to show your implied point that WRPGs are not cliched and do evolve.

Read my posts and the others agreeing. Look up google, type in >jrpg cliche<. After reading the first 2-3 pages on google, come back and tell us what you read.

I never stated that WRPGs are 100% cliche-free. Hell, you are the second in this thread saying something I didn't write.

And if you're still not convinced, go und play some JRPG, then some WRPG. They are worlds apart, and not only in credibility.

Modifié par Jean-Funk Van Damme, 13 juin 2011 - 05:44 .

[Bejos_]

Zanallen wrote...

I think that DA 2 is a WRPG that suffered from a short development cycle. With the revamp of the engine and changes to key features (Combat, approval, customization, etc), there was not enough time to make the game as good as it could be. I don't think DA 2 sucked. I actually liked it. I just don't see it resembling a JRPG very much. Nor does it really have an anime feel.

My mistake.

Character-related equipment is anime. Some of the characters themselves are anime. Edit: Combat is anime. As for the rest Edit: of the art direction-- I'll concede that. Anime is much more creative.

Modifié par Bejos_, 13 juin 2011 - 05:56 .

[TEWR]

I have to ask, what are peoples' problems with the combat?


and by combat, I want to separate it. Is it the animations people dislike? Or the skills and talents? And could you elaborate on which parts in that category you disliked?

*generic you here*

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 juin 2011 - 05:49 .

[Funkjoker]

^ unrealistic, flashy, cartoonish and nowhere as believable as it was e.g. in DAO

you didn't catch that in the board here? there are some posts really long discussing our issue with te combat

Modifié par Jean-Funk Van Damme, 13 juin 2011 - 05:51 .

[TEWR]

I would like specifics if possible. Saying "It's unrealistic and that's that" doesn't exactly help anything

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 juin 2011 - 05:53 .

[Zanallen]

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...

Read my posts and the others agreeing. Look up google, type in >jrpg cliche<. After reading the first 2-3 pages on google, come back and tell us what you read.

I never stated that WRPGs are 100% cliche-free. Hell, you are the second in this thread saying something I didn't write.

And if you're still not convinced, go und play some JRPG, then some WRPG. They are worlds apart, and not only in credibility.

I never said that you said WRPGs are 100% cliche free. I said that your impied point is that WRPGs are not cliched while JRPGs are. Which is wrong because WRPGs are riddled with cliches. And I'm not going to do your research for you. Get your own evidence and then come back, k? I've played plenty of JRPGs. The Persona series is nothing like the Final Fantasy series which is really nothing like the Tales series which is nothing like Demon Souls which is nothing like .Hack. Evolution in gameplay and story elements. Oh my god, the JRPGs are evolving! Must be the influence of Pokemon or something.

[Funkjoker]

then look up the hundreds threads already mentioning this issue. there are others who have already written essays about it when you're looking for a long read

[Funkjoker]

Zanallen wrote...

I never said that you said WRPGs are 100% cliche free. I said that your impied point is that WRPGs are not cliched while JRPGs are. Which is wrong because WRPGs are riddled with cliches. And I'm not going to do your research for you. Get your own evidence and then come back, k? I've played plenty of JRPGs. The Persona series is nothing like the Final Fantasy series which is really nothing like the Tales series which is nothing like Demon Souls which is nothing like .Hack. Evolution in gameplay and story elements. Oh my god, the JRPGs are evolving! Must be the influence of Pokemon or something.

Correct, but you didn't read, I stated: excluding some exceptions. I know the Persona series to be different.
But we're talking about the mass market here, and JRPG deliver the same old story to them as 15 years ago.
All this has been said already, and not only by me.

[Zanallen]

Bejos_ wrote...

My mistake.

Character-related equipment is anime. Some of the characters themselves are anime. Edit: Combat is anime. As for the rest-- I'll concede that. Anime is much more creative.

Character related equipment is an attempt to do away with the clunky, and frankly unnecessary, inventory system. Large inventories with a multitude of different weapons and armor and looting are unrealistic, uninspired and basically just a hold out from the beginnings of the RPG genre. Hell, even in DnD, you are very rarely upgrading your equipment during a quest.

[Bejos_]

Zanallen wrote...

Bejos_ wrote...

My mistake.

Character-related equipment is anime. Some of the characters themselves are anime. Edit: Combat is anime. As for the rest-- I'll concede that. Anime is much more creative.

Character related equipment is an attempt to do away with the clunky, and frankly unnecessary, inventory system. Large inventories with a multitude of different weapons and armor and looting are unrealistic, uninspired and basically just a hold out from the beginnings of the RPG genre. Hell, even in DnD, you are very rarely upgrading your equipment during a quest.

I don't think you're following me. I'm talking about art direction-- how they look-- not their mechanics or in-game impact. Weapons are oversized: anime. Armour is oversized/overstylised: anime. Some characters have round faces and big eyes: anime. Combat is OTT: anime.

[Zanallen]

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...

Correct, but you didn't read, I stated: excluding some exceptions. I know the Persona series to be different.
But we're talking about the mass market here, and JRPG deliver the same old story to them as 15 years ago.
All this has been said already, and not only by me.

I mentioned five different series of games that are all pretty mainstream JRPGs that all play differently and have different types of stories. I could go on into the less known developers if you'd like, but I'm forced to assume that no amount of evidence will work for you. So I'll just let you be wrong and continue to spout your nonsense without a shread of actual evidence to support your claims.

[Funkjoker]

Good man, Bejos_, you are right!