351 réponses à ce sujet

[Funkjoker]

Zanallen wrote...

I mentioned five different series of games that are all pretty mainstream JRPGs that all play differently and have different types of stories. I could go on into the less known developers if you'd like, but I'm forced to assume that no amount of evidence will work for you. So I'll just let you be wrong and continue to spout your nonsense without a shread of actual evidence to support your claims.

The difference is quality and credibility. You like the exaggerated JRPG-style, fine.

It's really good that we have the western market, so we have at least some good realistic approach to games.

[Zanallen]

Bejos_ wrote...

I don't think you're following me. I'm talking about art direction-- how they look-- not their mechanics or in-game impact. Weapons are oversized: anime. Armour is oversized/overstylised: anime. Some characters have round faces and big eyes: anime. Combat is OTT: anime.

Weapons and armor were oversized in Origins as well. Weapons are oversized in both games to allow for an ease of design. The armor is more stylized in DA2, yes. However, it is also generally smaller than the bulky armor in Origins. Compare the templar armor suits. Anime faces are generally more heart shaped than round, but whatever. I will grant you that elves have larger eyes. Which, of course, is an attempt to push them away from the generic human with pointy ears Origins design. Combat is over the top yes. But that isn't a staple of anime, so whatever. The combat was changed to speed it up and to create a style unique to the Dragon Age franchise. And once again, YMMV on how successful the Bioware team was.

[Zanallen]

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...

The difference is quality and credibility. You like the exaggerated JRPG-style, fine.

It's really good that we have the western market, so we have at least some good realistic approach to games.

Lol, now you are changing your argument. "It isn't that JRPGs don't evolve and are cliche. They do, but it isn't credible and lacks quality." Pathetic.

[Funkjoker]

Zanallen wrote...

Lol, now you are changing your argument. "It isn't that JRPGs don't evolve and are cliche. They do, but it isn't credible and lacks quality." Pathetic.

No, didn't say that. As in my first post, I repeat it for you: the JRPGs do not evolve. One of the Bio-devs als critized it in an interview. Look for google. If you can't take the critizism of the JRPG-genre, then it's not my problem.

[T764]

@Jean-Funk van Damme

When you say that jrpgs don't evolve do you mean that they remain linear games without customisation or choice and haven't changed into a more open world style game?

If you are talking story specifically Origins was the type of story i was playing in my D&D games and i haven't played D&D for almost ten years.

[TEWR]

Jean Funk Van Damme, could you at least link me to a couple threads and/or give me the name of one specific thread?

Because I am looking, but if I could save time it would be appreciated.

[Zanallen]

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Lol, now you are changing your argument. "It isn't that JRPGs don't evolve and are cliche. They do, but it isn't credible and lacks quality." Pathetic.

No, didn't say that. As in my first post, I repeat it for you: the JRPGs do not evolve. One of the Bio-devs als critized it in an interview. Look for google. If you can't take the critizism of the JRPG-genre, then it's not my problem.

And yet I have provided five examples of JRPGs that are completely different in story and gameplay and each are different from the origins of the JRPG genre. Evolution. You have provided jack squat to support your argument.

[Bejos_]

Zanallen wrote...

Bejos_ wrote...

I don't think you're following me. I'm talking about art direction-- how they look-- not their mechanics or in-game impact. Weapons are oversized: anime. Armour is oversized/overstylised: anime. Some characters have round faces and big eyes: anime. Combat is OTT: anime.

Weapons and armor were oversized in Origins as well. Weapons are oversized in both games to allow for an ease of design. The armor is more stylized in DA2, yes. However, it is also generally smaller than the bulky armor in Origins. Compare the templar armor suits. Anime faces are generally more heart shaped than round, but whatever. I will grant you that elves have larger eyes. Which, of course, is an attempt to push them away from the generic human with pointy ears Origins design. Combat is over the top yes. But that isn't a staple of anime, so whatever. The combat was changed to speed it up and to create a style unique to the Dragon Age franchise. And once again, YMMV on how successful the Bioware team was.

Weapon and armour design choices were not as exaggerated in DA:O. There is no way you can legitimately claim that. Sure, some of the "epic" (or however you want to describe it) armour sets were bulkier-- but that's because they were special or unique in some way. Weapons are far larger in DA2.

I apologise for using the word "round" instead of "heart-shaped" ... ;|

OTT combat is a staple of anime. I won't pretend to be an avid anime fan-- I'm not-- but I've seen enough episodes of enough series to know that OTT combat and animation is a staple of animes. I don't know how you can claim the opposite with a straight face.
If your claim is that anime in 2011 is now moving away from that style, or that some anime does it differently, I'd agree with that. But to claim that anime as a whole is not OTT in the above respects is blatantly fallacious.
Just as claiming that breakable, lootable barrels are not a staple of WRPGs is a bold assertion.

Are you conflating the terms "JRPG" and "anime"? Because they're separate things.

Also, in case this isn't clear, and in case this actually matters to your interpretation of my above words: I'm not attacking JRPGs or anime. They're fine, if that's what you're looking for. But it's not what a DA title is supposed to be. Or if a DA2 title is going to be those things, it should at least be marketed as such.

Modifié par Bejos_, 13 juin 2011 - 06:24 .

[Funkjoker]

T764 wrote...

@Jean-Funk van Damme

When you say that jrpgs don't evolve do you mean that they remain linear games without customisation or choice and haven't changed into a more open world style game?

I'll make it short: I have played many JRPGames for SNES, PS1 and a little bit PS2; and I've seen what they have in line for the PS3 or 360.

The problem is, they don't get rid of their cliches; the first woman you meet is obivously married to your main char after the first sentence of speaking. The group saving the world is one-sided-good, they'd never harm a fly. The hero is often an idiot andor silent [Tales of Symphonia, FFseries] and you can't choose his love-affair. The femine hero is not attracted to some other in your party. The evil villain is evil just for the sake of being evil. [...]
The list could go on.

However, in the good WRPGames, like Witcher and DAO, there is nothing black and white and only few things are exaggerated; our hero is our hero and we can choose whom to bed, whom to kill etc and when to get drunk.

The first JRPG to be evolved would be some game getting rid of most of the cliches, making believables styles (hair, clothing etc.] and so on.

Oh, and did I mention that I absolutely hate being a peasant born but ultimately the chosen one just to get the story rolling?

Modifié par Jean-Funk Van Damme, 13 juin 2011 - 06:24 .

[T764]

Bejos_ wrote...

I don't think you're following me. I'm talking about art direction-- how they look-- not their mechanics or in-game impact. Weapons are oversized: anime. Armour is oversized/overstylised: anime. Some characters have round faces and big eyes: anime. Combat is OTT: anime.

So oversized and overstylised arms and armour are anime.
Warhammer is the most anime thing ever then.

Round faces big eyes are anime.
Bloody hell disney was anime years ago then.

OTT Combat is anime.
Did you ever play Gears of War or Bulletstorm or Mortal Kombat.

These things exist outside of the realms of anime, they exist in western fantasy without the influence of Japan. 

[Melness]

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...

Oh, and did I mention that I absolutely hate being a peasant born but ultimately the chosen one just to get the story rolling?

Now that trope is pretty much universal in RPGs. You may not have been deliberately chosen by the Powers that Be, but pretty much ever RPG out there is about someone leaving their ordinary lives to become the Heroes of Ferelden Fantasyland.

[Bejos_]

T764 wrote...

Bejos_ wrote...

I don't think you're following me. I'm talking about art direction-- how they look-- not their mechanics or in-game impact. Weapons are oversized: anime. Armour is oversized/overstylised: anime. Some characters have round faces and big eyes: anime. Combat is OTT: anime.

So oversized and overstylised arms and armour are anime.
Warhammer is the most anime thing ever then.

Round faces big eyes are anime.
Bloody hell disney was anime years ago then.

OTT Combat is anime.
Did you ever play Gears of War or Bulletstorm or Mortal Kombat.

These things exist outside of the realms of anime, they exist in western fantasy without the influence of Japan. 

Are you trying to be obtuse, or are those strawmen the only way you can undermine my assertions?

All of those things together (among other design decisions) constitute an anime art style.

One or two of those design choices do not an anime art direction make. Your-- I don't know what those are; statements, I guess, although unuseful to the conversation at hand-- point that out.

[Zanallen]

Bejos_ wrote...

Weapons and armour design choices were not as exaggerated in DA:O. There is no way you can legitimately claim that. Sure, some of the "Epic" (or however you want to describe it) armour sets were bulkier-- but that's because they were "special"/"unique"/whatever. Weapons are far larger in DA2.

I apologise for saying "round" instead of "heart-shaped" ... ;|

OTT combat is a staple of anime. I won't pretend to be an avid anime fan-- I'm not-- but I've seen enough episodes of enough series to know that OTT combat and animation is a staple of animes. I don't know how you can claim the opposite with a straight face.
If your claim is that anime in 2011 is now moving away from that style, or that some anime does it differently, I'd agree with that. But to claim that anime as a whole is not OTT in the above respects is blatantly fallacious.
Just as claiming that breakable, lootable barrels are not a staple of WRPGs is be a bold assertion.

Are you conflating the terms "JRPG" and "anime"? Because they're separate things.

Also, in case this isn't clear, and in case this actually matters to your interpretation of my above words: I'm not attacking JRPGs or anime. They're fine, if that's what you're looking for. But it's not what a DA title is supposed to be. Or if a DA2 title is going to be those things, it should at least be marketed as such.

No, I agree. The armor in DA2 is far more stylized than that of Origins. However, Origins armor was generally larger and bulkier. Weapons are about the same size in both games, not counting the DLC Hayder's Razor. And as I said, the weapons are oversized to allow for ease of design, both visual and for animation design.

OTT combat is a staple of battle anime, generally of the shonen variety. That is what most of popular anime consists of, yes, but it is far from a staple of anime as a whole. Anime is as diverse as Hollywood. Its like saying that Equilibrium style gun kata is a staple of movies. Also, breakable lootable barrels is a staple of pretty much all RPGs, western and Japanese alike. It is also one that should be dealt away with.

"Not what a DA title is supposed to be"? We've had one other DA title. One. You cannot derive a theme or pattern from a single game.

[Luke Barrett]

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...
Oh, and did I mention that I absolutely hate being a peasant born but ultimately the chosen one just to get the story rolling?

You wanted Johnny Lawrence to win, didn't you? Cobra Kai!

[TEWR]

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...

T764 wrote...

@Jean-Funk van Damme

When you say that jrpgs don't evolve do you mean that they remain linear games without customisation or choice and haven't changed into a more open world style game?

I'll make it short: I have played many JRPGames for SNES, PS1 and a little bit PS2; and I've seen what they have in line for the PS3 or 360.

The problem is, they don't get rid of their cliches; the first woman you meet is obivously married to your main char after the first sentence of speaking. The group saving the world is one-sided-good, they'd never harm a fly. The hero is often an idiot andor silent [Tales of Symphonia, FFseries] and you can't choose his love-affair. The femine hero is not attracted to some other in your party. The evil villain is evil just for the sake of being evil. [...]
The list could go on.

However, in the good WRPGames, like Witcher and DAO, there is nothing black and white and only few things are exaggerated; our hero is our hero and we can choose whom to bed, whom to kill etc and when to get drunk.

The first JRPG to be evolved would be some game getting rid of most of the cliches, making believables styles (hair, clothing etc.] and so on.

Oh, and did I mention that I absolutely hate being a peasant born but ultimately the chosen one just to get the story rolling?

Ahem, FFXIII's main character is.... well, the entire group. Lightning is the leader of the group I guess you could say, and she isn't in love with any of the characters.

Just the same, a lot of the characters' faces in there are not the typical "anime look" people usually see. I'll show some examples








And yes, that hair is indeed believable. And he's wearing a trench coat. So that should be believable clothing for you shouldn't it







Now, the only downfall of FFXIII was the linearity and no sidequests worth your time of day, but FFXIII-2 is adding explorability and improving upon what FFXIII lacked.


Likewise, the characters aren't "always doing good". They're actually in a bit of a dilemma of what to do given their situation.

Now, would I like to see a JRPG that gave me a choice of who I could romance? Sure. I seem to have a vague memory that there was at one point a JRPG that did that, but idk.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 juin 2011 - 06:35 .

[Funkjoker]

Melness wrote...

Now that trope is pretty much universal in RPGs. You may not have been deliberately chosen by the Powers that Be, but pretty much ever RPG out there is about someone leaving their ordinary lives to become the Heroes of Ferelden Fantasyland.

Yes, but the difference is the credibility you're putting your hero into the story. The Warden is "just" a Grey Warden like many others. Unfortunately, all GW were killed in Ferelden apart from you and Alistair. You're only "unique" because you're the last two remaining in this country.

In The Witcher, you are one of a few Witchers out there. You can be good, bad, neutral [as witchers naturally should be, established by the lore] and so on.

I know that once you hit play in the game you are a god, because nobody can touch you ^.^. But if I start out as a peasant, I should have a knight or someone teaching me some skills of warplay, or at least some way to believe why I became good at end of the story. In DAO and Witcher, there's established lore and the world you play in is credible.

[TEWR]

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...

Melness wrote...

Now that trope is pretty much universal in RPGs. You may not have been deliberately chosen by the Powers that Be, but pretty much ever RPG out there is about someone leaving their ordinary lives to become the Heroes of Ferelden Fantasyland.

Yes, but the difference is the credibility you're putting your hero into the story. The Warden is "just" a Grey Warden like many others. Unfortunately, all GW were killed in Ferelden apart from you and Alistair. You're only "unique" because you're the last two remaining in this country.

In The Witcher, you are one of a few Witchers out there. You can be good, bad, neutral [as witchers naturally should be, established by the lore] and so on.

I know that once you hit play in the game you are a god, because nobody can touch you ^.^. But if I start out as a peasant, I should have a knight or someone teaching me some skills of warplay, or at least some way to believe why I became good at end of the story. In DAO and Witcher, there's established lore and the world you play in is credible.

Anyone can learn how to wield a weapon by themselves given time. And FFXII had Vaan practicing in the sewers against giant rats. Given that his brother was a soldier, I'd say he had a teacher now wouldn't you?

[Melness]

Zanallen wrote...

OTT combat is a staple of battle anime, generally of the shonen variety.

Tv Tropes taught me that Anime isn't just Shonen and Shoujo.

I find it amusing how people cling to so called 'RPG Conventions' such as a transdimensional inventory and looting system but can't stand stylized weapons and armor and quicker combat. As if Origin's combat was realistic.

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...
Yes, but the difference is the credibility you're putting your hero into the story. The Warden is "just" a Grey Warden like many others. Unfortunately, all GW were killed in Ferelden apart from you and Alistair. You're only "unique" because you're the last two remaining in this country.

I understand what you mean but all I can say is that Dragon Age Origins didn't play this particular trope straight in a good way - by giving your character some credibility. Sure you're not just a peasant//noble kid from highever/random circle mage/dwarf brigand/elvish hunter, but you aren't just a Grey Warden either. You're are THE Warden, if you know what I mean.

Ferelden was still lucky that you came from practically nowhere, or perhaps that Duncan had supernatural timing, and still accoplished something that Thedas never could before - a Blight that was solo'd by a single nation.

Modifié par Melness, 13 juin 2011 - 06:43 .

[Funkjoker]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Likewise, the characters aren't "always doing good". They're actually in a bit of a dilemma of what to do given their situation.

Now, would I like to see a JRPG that gave me a choice of who I could romance? Sure. I seem to have a vague memory that there was at one point a JRPG that did that, but idk.

Yeah, Ethereal, I read about FFXIII and its many flaws. Your pictures show me that they seem to start making improvements in the visual style... but in what extend? I heard the game to be average at best, so I don't know, as I don't own [these bloody ] recent consoles.

[Zanallen]

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...

The problem is, they don't get rid of their cliches; the first woman you meet is obivously married to your main char after the first sentence of speaking. The group saving the world is one-sided-good, they'd never harm a fly. The hero is often an idiot andor silent [Tales of Symphonia, FFseries] and you can't choose his love-affair. The femine hero is not attracted to some other in your party. The evil villain is evil just for the sake of being evil. [...]
The list could go on.

Let's examine Final Fantasy 7, shall we?

The first girl you meet is Tifa. She does love Cloud, yes. However, you also have Aeris. Who also likes Cloud because he reminds her of her first boyfriend. You can choose who you want to go out on a date with based on character interactions. Aeris then dies and, while Tifa does take care of Cloud when he is sick, the two never really get together.

Avalanche is a group of terrorists who go around blowing up power plants. Not exactly "one-sided-good who'll never harm a fly". One of your group members is a thief who actually steals from your party and a second is a former member of the enemies who is out for revenge.

Cloud is not silent, unlike the Warden btw, and his intelligence is a YMMV sort of thing.

Shinra isn't evil just for the sake of being evil. They are a corporation out for control and financial dominance. I wouldn't consider Sephiroth evil for evil's sake either. He went crazy due to discovering Shinra's secrets and is attempting to save his "mother" and is under the influence of a great evil. (Great evil that is evil for evil's sake...Where have I heard that before? Oh, yeah. Archdemon).

[Funkjoker]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Anyone can learn how to wield a weapon by themselves given time. And FFXII had Vaan practicing in the sewers against giant rats. Given that his brother was a soldier, I'd say he had a teacher now wouldn't you?

Yeah, I started FFXII until these deserts and the big bridges after some mines or whatever... however, I got bored, as the main char was a huge fail.

Of course you can learn your own fighting skill and if you survive, you're a bit better. But the tips and tricks of a seasoned battle experienced soldier outweighs your own by far. Peasants are only soldiers born when properly instructed.

[Melness]

Zanallen wrote...

Let's examine Final Fantasy 7, shall we?

The first girl you meet is Tifa. She does love Cloud, yes. However, you also have Aeris. Who also likes Cloud because he reminds her of her first boyfriend. You can choose who you want to go out on a date with based on character interactions. Aeris then dies and, while Tifa does take care of Cloud when he is sick, the two never really get together.

You forgot that you get to choose who Cloud goes on a date during the second Golden Saucer arc, I think.

[Harid]

Find it ironic people are arguing JRPG's don't evolve when there are more often more evolutions between games top to bottom than WRPG's which are, if anything devolving, by removing choice, equipment, and options.

People need to be more clear on what exactly isn't evolving (probably the story), or it makes them look as foolish as Bioware does when they troll JRPG's yet release DA2, where your choices don't matter and the game is as linear as FFXIII was.

[Bejos_]

Zanallen wrote...
No, I agree. The armor in DA2 is far more stylized than that of Origins. However, Origins armor was generally larger and bulkier. Weapons are about the same size in both games, not counting the DLC Hayder's Razor. And as I said, the weapons are oversized to allow for ease of design, both visual and for animation design.

I don't know ... I've seen some really big weapons that I can't find any reasonable facsimile for in DA:O. Giant hammers that would be impossible to lift, let alone swing properly; giant swords that would be just as clumsy in battle; etc. I really can't recall a weapon that is as unwieldy as most DA2 weapons.

Zanallen wrote...
OTT combat is a staple of battle anime, generally of the shonen variety. That is what most of popular anime consists of, yes, but it is far from a staple of anime as a whole. Anime is as diverse as Hollywood. Its like saying that Equilibrium style gun kata is a staple of movies. Also, breakable lootable barrels is a staple of pretty much all RPGs, western and Japanese alike. It is also one that should be dealt away with.

I'm not just talking about battle anime. I've seen anime that doesn't have any combat in it. I've also seen horror anime. I've seen comedy anime. I've seen hundreds of different anime series throughout the years. Animations are generally OTT. That's okay. If the industry's moving away from that, that's okay, too. Maybe we just have different ideas of what OTT is. I'd describe OTT animation as anything that you'd be hard pressed to see IRL.

Zanallen wrote...
"Not what a DA title is supposed to be"? We've had one other DA title. One. You cannot derive a theme or pattern from a single game.

So you'd be okay with the Matrix trilogy changing its visual style in the sequels? Or LOTR suddenly adopting The Grudge's visual style? Be honest, now.

Modifié par Bejos_, 13 juin 2011 - 06:49 .