351 réponses à ce sujet

[Harid]

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Anyone can learn how to wield a weapon by themselves given time. And FFXII had Vaan practicing in the sewers against giant rats. Given that his brother was a soldier, I'd say he had a teacher now wouldn't you?

Yeah, I started FFXII until these deserts and the big bridges after some mines or whatever... however, I got bored, as the main char was a huge fail.

Of course you can learn your own fighting skill and if you survive, you're a bit better. But the tips and tricks of a seasoned battle experienced soldier outweighs your own by far. Peasants are only soldiers born when properly instructed.

I don't recall being trained by anyone outside of Kotor, from anything Bioware has ever released ever.  I didn't play Jade Empire, though.

In DA and DA2 you just. . .are trained.  And in BG you pretty much train yourself until your god blood kicks in.

Modifié par Harid, 13 juin 2011 - 06:50 .

[TEWR]

Average by whose standards? Critics? I don't let their opinions become mine.

I thought the story was amazing and the characters had real depth. I thought the combat was truly tactical where I had to constantly change my strategy, which was something I loved. Had there been cities and towns that I could freely explore and do other things then the game would've probably been my 2nd favorite. But even without exploration and more than just hunting type side quests, FFXIII is still an amazing game to me.

Also, not all characters in JRPGs looked anime inspired. I'll go back to FFX for one example.




the epitome of badassery.

[Zanallen]

Bejos_ wrote...

So you'd be okay with the Matrix trilogy changing its visual style in the sequels? Or LOTR suddenly adopting The Grudge's visual style? Be honest, now.

LotR? No because it is based around an established series with the book trilogy. Dragon Age isn't based on a book trilogy with descriptions of the characters and world in place.

Matrix? Sure. Hell, it pretty much did with Zion and the robot squids and then Neo becoming Jesus and using his powers outside of the Matrix and the battle between Superman and the humongous FBI agent.

[Melness]

Harid wrote...

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Anyone can learn how to wield a weapon by themselves given time. And FFXII had Vaan practicing in the sewers against giant rats. Given that his brother was a soldier, I'd say he had a teacher now wouldn't you?

Yeah, I started FFXII until these deserts and the big bridges after some mines or whatever... however, I got bored, as the main char was a huge fail.

Of course you can learn your own fighting skill and if you survive, you're a bit better. But the tips and tricks of a seasoned battle experienced soldier outweighs your own by far. Peasants are only soldiers born when properly instructed.

I don't recall being trained by anyone outside of Kotor, from anything Bioware has ever released ever.  I didn't play Jade Empire, though.

Training or no, I don't think any guard captain trains his soldiers to become heroes on the level of a Warden out there. I'd say even most of the Grey Wardens can't hold a candle to a Warden.

That being said, the City Elf Origin was trained by his would be rogue of a mother, the Dwarf Commoner Origin was a bandit and the Dalish Elf Origin was trained as a Hunter. Even the Magi Origin (Magic trumps anything that can't dispel, I believe) and the Noble Origins (both seem trained in arms) don't show any predisposition to raise a Hero of Ferelden.

As such, every Origin in DA:O is akin to a farm boy becoming a super hero to save fantasyland from the big bad. Which isn't bad.

Modifié par Melness, 13 juin 2011 - 06:56 .

[T764]

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...


The problem is, they don't get rid of their cliches; the first woman you meet is obivously married to your main char after the first sentence of speaking. The group saving the world is one-sided-good, they'd never harm a fly. The hero is often an idiot andor silent [Tales of Symphonia, FFseries] and you can't choose his love-affair. The femine hero is not attracted to some other in your party. The evil villain is evil just for the sake of being evil. [...]
The list could go on.

In a linear story it is often obvious who the love interest is, do you e-mail writers asking them omit romance because it's cliched?
The group saving the world is good because they are heroes, if they were indifferent gits they wouldn't bother.
So the Archdemon isn't evil for the sake of being evil?   

However, in the good WRPGames, like Witcher and DAO, there is nothing black and white and only few things are exaggerated; our hero is our hero and we can choose whom to bed, whom to kill etc and when to get drunk.

You dislike the lack of freedom? You want sandbox games or simulations? 
There is nothing black and white, you mean like Arl Howe or the Archdemon or blood mages or Loghain.
Remember that the Witcher was a book series and its "good"  is a result of that and not of being a wrpg.  

The first JRPG to be evolved would be some game getting rid of most of the cliches, making believables styles (hair, clothing etc.] and so on.

You dislike the artistic direction? 
A change of artistic direction is not an evolution, this thread proves that.
 

Oh, and did I mention that I absolutely hate being a peasant born but ultimately the chosen one just to get the story rolling?

You hated the origin stories in DAO then?

 

[Zanallen]

Harid wrote...

I don't recall being trained by anyone outside of Kotor, from anything Bioware has ever released ever.  I didn't play Jade Empire, though.

In DA and DA2 you just. . .are trained.  And in BG you pretty much train yourself until your god blood kicks in.

Jade Empire passes. The beginning takes place in a martial arts school and you do engage in a few training matches. Of course, you start the game as your master's prized pupil, so you aren't exactly a peasant off the streets. Oddly enough, Jade Empire is the other Bioware game where Laidlaw had the helm. OMG! He's provides the most realism to Bioware games!

[Wolfborn Son]

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...


DA3 needs the look it had in DAO. Dark and mature. There is absolutely no need to make it cartoonish or anime like DA2 or all the Jgames. It's an absolute horrible style.

Except JRPGs are actually more varied than WRPGs.  Artwise, saying there's no difference between Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne and Final Fantasy X is just as silly as saying that Jack Kirby and Todd McFarlane's is the same because they're both comic book artists.  And that doesn't even touch gameplay; you have tradional JRPGs (Dragon Quest), cinimatic games (modern Final Fantasy games), first-person dungeon crawls akin to the old AD&D games, roguelikes, and everything in between.

Also, people forget that over-the-top insanity also exists in Western fiction and myth.   Even read Beowulf?  That dude body slams a huge monster, tearing his arm off doing so.  And holds his breath for longer than any human could.  And kills the huge monster's mother with a sword that's larger than he is.  And let's not forget Cu Chulainn.  His "war spasm" made his muslces bulge, hair stand up, and body glow. 

And franky, DAII seems more like "300" than any anime.

[Funkjoker]

Zanallen wrote...

Let's examine Final Fantasy 7, shall we?

The first girl you meet is Tifa. She does love Cloud, yes. However, you also have Aeris. Who also likes Cloud because he reminds her of her first boyfriend. You can choose who you want to go out on a date with based on character interactions. Aeris then dies and, while Tifa does take care of Cloud when he is sick, the two never really get together.

Avalanche is a group of terrorists who go around blowing up power plants. Not exactly "one-sided-good who'll never harm a fly". One of your group members is a thief who actually steals from your party and a second is a former member of the enemies who is out for revenge.

Cloud is not silent, unlike the Warden btw, and his intelligence is a YMMV sort of thing.

Shinra isn't evil just for the sake of being evil. They are a corporation out for control and financial dominance. I wouldn't consider Sephiroth evil for evil's sake either. He went crazy due to discovering Shinra's secrets and is attempting to save his "mother" and is under the influence of a great evil. (Great evil that is evil for evil's sake...Where have I heard that before? Oh, yeah. Archdemon).

Yeah, FFVII is some sort of "DA JRPG for EVERYONE!!!11", however, I liked VIII better ;-)

Unfortunately, I cannot tell anything about the story, as it have been many years for me when I've played the game. I'm more to replay DAO again

Of course, the archdemon is some sort of cliche -- but it's package is better than most of the Jbosses. He isn't the ultimate boss per se, he was one of seven. And he's tainted -- credible things for a credible world.

The ultimate boss for many in JRPGs is, I believe, Kafka from FFVI? However, it's been also years since I played it ^.^.

But those games are quite old as of now. Loghain, the endboss from Witcher etc. are good villains, because I can understand why they're doing what they're doing. They are humans after all - they make mistakes.

I don't know exactly, maybe you can help me, but wasn't it the case that only Kefka and Sephiroth had some believable motivations? Kefka was power-hungry as hell, however, I forget how it played out in the game -- whether it was done well or not. Sephiroth, what you said.

[Harid]

Melness wrote...

Harid wrote...

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Anyone can learn how to wield a weapon by themselves given time. And FFXII had Vaan practicing in the sewers against giant rats. Given that his brother was a soldier, I'd say he had a teacher now wouldn't you?

Yeah, I started FFXII until these deserts and the big bridges after some mines or whatever... however, I got bored, as the main char was a huge fail.

Of course you can learn your own fighting skill and if you survive, you're a bit better. But the tips and tricks of a seasoned battle experienced soldier outweighs your own by far. Peasants are only soldiers born when properly instructed.

I don't recall being trained by anyone outside of Kotor, from anything Bioware has ever released ever.  I didn't play Jade Empire, though.

Training or no, I don't think any guard captain trains his soldiers to become heroes on the level of a Warden out there. I'd say even most of the Grey Wardens can't hold a candle to a Warden.

That being said, the City Elf Origin was trained by his would be rogue of a mother, the Dwarf Commoner Origin was a bandit and the Dalish Elf Origin was trained as a Hunter. Even the Magi Origin (Magic trumps anything that can't dispel, I believe) and the Noble Origins (both seem trained in arms) don't show any predisposition to raise a Hero of Ferelden.

As such, every Origin in DA:O is akin to a farm boy becoming a super hero to save fantasyland from the big bad. Which isn't bad.

That falls under the "just trained" moniker that I referenced.  You don't see any of this training, it just is.  Which is what happens in like 90% of JRPG's out there.  What I am trying to say is it isn't any better.

And I disagree, it kinda is.  If you are going to go to the extreme to make us supermen to establish the power fantasy, you might as well go all out and make a reason for it.  One of the reasons I liked BG1 was that Sarevok is just. . .better than you, but due to circumstance you beat him.  Since then, Bioware has gone the route where you are better than everyone else, which is in the JRPG's that they seemingly like to troll.

Modifié par Harid, 13 juin 2011 - 07:03 .

[Clover Rider]

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

Also Dragon Age is nothing like a "realistic dark fantasy".

It is not? The death-animations are fluid, eye-candy and are more or less possible to do yourself. In DA2 many things are highly exaggerated, but this was depicted in other threads.

What's realistic dark fantasy for you? DAO had a very good approach to it. DA2 broke it.

Someone already said "realistic dark fantasy" is an oxymoron. But I will bite.

A Song of Ice and Fire that's what I see as dark fantasy and I guess "realistic". Now DAO and DA2 are the same kind of fantasy in my view.

[Funkjoker]

Harid wrote...

I don't recall being trained by anyone outside of Kotor, from anything Bioware has ever released ever.  I didn't play Jade Empire, though.

In DA and DA2 you just. . .are trained.  And in BG you pretty much train yourself until your god blood kicks in.

JE: not played. NW: I don't remember.

In DA, it's etablished. The Dalish would have tought, as lordling you would have your master-at-arms, as dwarf you were the prince or in the lower city surviving by your skills.

DA2, the prologue, is very poorly done. However, they give you an explanation: as soldier, you were in Ostagar. So you should have at least some battle skills

And BG, yes... that's D&D ^.^

[Wolfborn Son]

T764 wrote...



So oversized and overstylised arms and armour are anime.
Warhammer is the most anime thing ever then.

 

Also, this.  Which is sort of ironic, considering the Warhammer setting pulls off "dark fantasy" far better than Dragon Age (and even the much worshipped Witcher) yet still cranks up all the much mangled aspects of DAII up even higher.  

[Persephone]

Bejos_ wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Bejos_ wrote...

I don't think you're following me. I'm talking about art direction-- how they look-- not their mechanics or in-game impact. Weapons are oversized: anime. Armour is oversized/overstylised: anime. Some characters have round faces and big eyes: anime. Combat is OTT: anime.

Weapons and armor were oversized in Origins as well. Weapons are oversized in both games to allow for an ease of design. The armor is more stylized in DA2, yes. However, it is also generally smaller than the bulky armor in Origins. Compare the templar armor suits. Anime faces are generally more heart shaped than round, but whatever. I will grant you that elves have larger eyes. Which, of course, is an attempt to push them away from the generic human with pointy ears Origins design. Combat is over the top yes. But that isn't a staple of anime, so whatever. The combat was changed to speed it up and to create a style unique to the Dragon Age franchise. And once again, YMMV on how successful the Bioware team was.

Weapon and armour design choices were not as exaggerated in DA:O. There is no way you can legitimately claim that. Sure, some of the "epic" (or however you want to describe it) armour sets were bulkier-- but that's because they were special or unique in some way. Weapons are far larger in DA2.

No they are not. Modders (Who actually know this stuff first hand) compared them and they are the same size. (Two handed swords & axes etc.)

[TEWR]

Suikoden IV had you play as a soldier who went out on a few training missions and ultimately bore a Rune that changed his life forever. For all of his life he was a soldier, and then he becomes the hero.

The main threat, IIRC, was no one being evil just for the sake of being evil. In fact, the reasons for the main antagonist being the threat were unclear, but hints were dropped here and there.

[Funkjoker]

Some Geth wrote...
Someone already said "realistic dark fantasy" is an oxymoron. But I will bite.

A Song of Ice and Fire that's what I see as dark fantasy and I guess "realistic". Now DAO and DA2 are the same kind of fantasy in my view.

YES! I re-read the first book atm, because the series is just fantastic ^.^

Witcher and DAO also have some aspects of it. Yeah, DA2 can be argued -- I see it as BioWare trying this... style... but as it failed I believe they'll make it good again. Or I hope. Dunno.

[Melness]

Harid wrote...

That falls under the "just trained" moniker that I referenced.  You don't see any of this training, it just is.  Which is what happens in like 90% of JRPG's out there.  What I am trying to say is it isn't any better.

(As a non-native speaker of english, I'll just interpret ''moniker'' as ''gambit'' or something)

I know, I agree with you. What I said, and you quoted, is specifically why such a gambit isn't better from a peasant growing into huge levels of heroism.

Considering the epic level of The Warden's accomplishments, I think that, no matter how much training one gets, most other people are akin to a peasant. Especially if you consider that 4 out of 6 Origins from DA:O either were peasants (City Elf, Magi [Even if Magic technically trumps everything]) or received sub-par training (Dalish Elf) or none at all (Dwarf Commoner).

Personally, I have nothing against this trope. Just saying that ''Peasant becomes Hero'' is, pretty much, the same thing as ''Barely trained Brigand becomes Hero''

[TEWR]

Persephone wrote...

Bejos_ wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Bejos_ wrote...

I don't think you're following me. I'm talking about art direction-- how they look-- not their mechanics or in-game impact. Weapons are oversized: anime. Armour is oversized/overstylised: anime. Some characters have round faces and big eyes: anime. Combat is OTT: anime.

Weapons and armor were oversized in Origins as well. Weapons are oversized in both games to allow for an ease of design. The armor is more stylized in DA2, yes. However, it is also generally smaller than the bulky armor in Origins. Compare the templar armor suits. Anime faces are generally more heart shaped than round, but whatever. I will grant you that elves have larger eyes. Which, of course, is an attempt to push them away from the generic human with pointy ears Origins design. Combat is over the top yes. But that isn't a staple of anime, so whatever. The combat was changed to speed it up and to create a style unique to the Dragon Age franchise. And once again, YMMV on how successful the Bioware team was.

Weapon and armour design choices were not as exaggerated in DA:O. There is no way you can legitimately claim that. Sure, some of the "epic" (or however you want to describe it) armour sets were bulkier-- but that's because they were special or unique in some way. Weapons are far larger in DA2.

No they are not. Modders (Who actually know this stuff first hand) compared them and they are the same size. (Two handed swords & axes etc.)

Psh you don't even have to be a modder to realize that.


That said, there are only a scant number of greatswords in DA:O and DA2 that aren't oversized in width. The first two that come to mind off the top of my head are the Chasind Flatblade and Might of the Sten.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 juin 2011 - 07:08 .

[Wolfborn Son]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Suikoden IV had you play as a soldier who went out on a few training missions and ultimately bore a Rune that changed his life forever. For all of his life he was a soldier, and then he becomes the hero.

The main threat, IIRC, was no one being evil just for the sake of being evil. In fact, the reasons for the main antagonist being the threat were unclear, but hints were dropped here and there.

The Suikoden series in general is good at this.  Most of the antagonists in the game are evil, but do evil things because they believe it will serve a greater good.  Even Luca Blight, the primary antagonist in Suikoden II has reasons for being a madman, even if they weren't directly adressed in game and come from secondary (but canon) material.

[Funkjoker]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Suikoden IV had you play as a soldier who went out on a few training missions and ultimately bore a Rune that changed his life forever. For all of his life he was a soldier, and then he becomes the hero.

I love the suikoden series. Unfortunately, there is no new game coming for the series atm :-(

And the evil guy from SII was really good!

The problems is, no company has ever done such a thing -- setting out with a HUGE party conquering the country in a good way. Good way, because there's this stupid fate-thing again. It's more believable than stories in other JRPGs, however, but the main chars and some others of him are really lame.

If BioWare or CDRedProject ever did a suikoden, this would be a hell of game for me. I'd like to build my castle and have fun in it, while besieging enemy castles etc. and that as RPG and not RTS. That would be really great ^.^

Modifié par Jean-Funk Van Damme, 13 juin 2011 - 07:11 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

My main objection against the current DA2 combat isn't things like oversized weapons, but the jumping around the battlefield. It makes especially rogue characters hard to predict. You can position your companions on the battlefield, but they keep jumping to other areas in no-time. The same is true for the enemy side. I think that severely damages tactical gameplay. The flashy animations distract too much from the overview. The lack of a tactical view make things even worse. If Hawke is a rogue then I really feel like a frog and makes it hard to follow who is where. The waves of enemies popping up from thin air make the chaos complete.

[Bejos_]

Zanallen wrote...

Bejos_ wrote...

So you'd be okay with the Matrix trilogy changing its visual style in the sequels? Or LOTR suddenly adopting The Grudge's visual style? Be honest, now.

LotR? No because it is based around an established series with the book trilogy. Dragon Age isn't based on a book trilogy with descriptions of the characters and world in place.

Matrix? Sure. Hell, it pretty much did with Zion and the robot squids and then Neo becoming Jesus and using his powers outside of the Matrix and the battle between Superman and the humongous FBI agent.

Matrix's art shifts are so minimal they may as well not be there.

The movie LOTR has a distinct visual style. It's based on a book which, while it may describe things, leaves the visual style open to interpretation by the director of the movie. You can't look to a text-only source as a foundation for the visual style of a visual and audio product.

You're telling me that if LOTR's look and tone changed from what it is in the first movie to ... Alice In Wonderlands's look and tone, that would be okay? If that's okay with you, personally, hey, good for you. But any professional working on a project knows you don't do that unless there's a very good reason e.g. you've entered a parallel universe, the character through whom you're supposed to be experiencing the story goes crazy, whatever.

Changing visual style (as well as other things; but let's not go there because it has no relevance to the JRPG topic) is very sloppy and unprofessional. It also undermines the overall artistic merit of your work.

Anyway, I'm noticing that you pointed out that FF's characters look more realistic than most anime characters. For purposes of this thread, "anime" and "JRPG" are terms that should be separated. It bears repeating.

[Tirfan]

Okay, great points in this thread - and I think I said something along the lines of no more jrpg in my DA, and I still do stand by this statement - but yet again, I haven't played that much of JRPG:s a few titles, and some were good - even a few of the Final Fantasy series, VI, XII (if you could get over the fact that the "main character" wasn't in fact the main character.) Tactics (which really did seem like it had absolutely nothing to do with the FF series - and tactics is, I have to say, one of the best games I have ever played, because it had rather engaging storyline, even if it was linear, combat was fun and it was hard, it was so very hard if you didn't grind the random battles for experience but just moved with the story.) But really, my perception of JRPG:s is mostly based on games of the Final Fantasy series that did suck (VIII, which is probably the worst game I have ever played, it really was even worse than DA2)

I did let other things japanese influence why I probably thought DA2 had jrpg influence (over the top combat movements - which have been covered) And really, I haven't seen that much anime which didn't have kind of over the top animations - but I can name a few if pressed hard enough - and I've seen good anime (probably one of the best "date movies" I've ever seen was anime movie) and some of these did have have OTT animations, but they were what I expected, I wasn't too bothered about them - they are not what I would have excpected in Dragon Age title.

Modifié par Tirfan, 13 juin 2011 - 07:14 .

[Zanallen]

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...

The ultimate boss for many in JRPGs is, I believe, Kafka from FFVI? However, it's been also years since I played it ^.^.

But those games are quite old as of now. Loghain, the endboss from Witcher etc. are good villains, because I can understand why they're doing what they're doing. They are humans after all - they make mistakes.

I don't know exactly, maybe you can help me, but wasn't it the case that only Kefka and Sephiroth had some believable motivations? Kefka was power-hungry as hell, however, I forget how it played out in the game -- whether it was done well or not. Sephiroth, what you said.

Loghain wasn't the villain of DA:O. He was the catalyst that sets the story in motion. He helps create the setting by betraying his King. Also, his motivations are really all that good. He's just a paranoid old man who can't get over his hatred for Orlais. The Archdemon is the antagonist, a mindless evil intent on destroying all life. And while it may be a corrupted Old God, that doesn't make it any less cliched.

Kefka was power hungry, yes. And a sadist. He strived to use the power of the three godesses to become a god himself and betrayed his emperor to achieve that goal. Then he pretty much wrecks the world with a massive death laser.

We also have Golbez from FFIV. He is the mind controlled older brother of the main character tasked with collecting the crytals that allows him to reach the prison that his master is trapped in. He plans to release his master and allow him to take over the world.

Mithos, from Tales of Symphonia that you criticized, was a great hero who wanted to bring peace to the world. However, with his sister's death, he loses it and decides that the only way to create peace and end discrimination is to kill everyone who resists.

There are plenty of strong, well written villains in JRPGs.

[Bejos_]

Wolfborn Son wrote...

T764 wrote...

So oversized and overstylised arms and armour are anime.
Warhammer is the most anime thing ever then.

 

Also, this.  Which is sort of ironic, considering the Warhammer setting pulls off "dark fantasy" far better than Dragon Age (and even the much worshipped Witcher) yet still cranks up all the much mangled aspects of DAII up even higher.  

Interesting, Son, that you decided to reply to this but didn't bother to include my reply to 764. One or two things do not an art style make. Put the OTT combat, the overstylised/overlarge equipment, characters' faces and the OTT animations together, and that makes a solid argument that DA2 is definitely anime-tinged, at the least.

Man, some people are so disingenuous. If you're going to be making arguments, at least have the decency to argue honestly.

[Melness]

Bejos_ wrote...
It also undermines the overall artistic merit of your work.

I'd say, only to those that have any reason to complain - that being they personally dislike the new art direction.