351 réponses à ce sujet

[Harid]

Zanallen wrote...

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...

The ultimate boss for many in JRPGs is, I believe, Kafka from FFVI? However, it's been also years since I played it ^.^.

But those games are quite old as of now. Loghain, the endboss from Witcher etc. are good villains, because I can understand why they're doing what they're doing. They are humans after all - they make mistakes.

I don't know exactly, maybe you can help me, but wasn't it the case that only Kefka and Sephiroth had some believable motivations? Kefka was power-hungry as hell, however, I forget how it played out in the game -- whether it was done well or not. Sephiroth, what you said.

Loghain wasn't the villain of DA:O. He was the catalyst that sets the story in motion. He helps create the setting by betraying his King. Also, his motivations are really all that good. He's just a paranoid old man who can't get over his hatred for Orlais. The Archdemon is the antagonist, a mindless evil intent on destroying all life. And while it may be a corrupted Old God, that doesn't make it any less cliched.

Kefka was power hungry, yes. And a sadist. He strived to use the power of the three godesses to become a god himself and betrayed his emperor to achieve that goal. Then he pretty much wrecks the world with a massive death laser.

We also have Golbez from FFIV. He is the mind controlled older brother of the main character tasked with collecting the crytals that allows him to reach the prison that his master is trapped in. He plans to release his master and allow him to take over the world.

Mithos, from Tales of Symphonia that you criticized, was a great hero who wanted to bring peace to the world. However, with his sister's death, he loses it and decides that the only way to create peace and end discrimination is to kill everyone who resists.

There are plenty of strong, well written villains in JRPGs.

Golbez wasn't the villain in FFIV, Zemus/Zeromus was.  IF anything. . .he's exactly like Loghain in terms of being the catalyst of the story, but everything he did was controlled by Zemus.

Modifié par Harid, 13 juin 2011 - 07:19 .

[TEWR]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

My main objection against the current DA2 combat isn't things like oversized weapons, but the jumping around the battlefield. It makes especially rogue characters hard to predict. You can position your companions on the battlefield, but they keep jumping to other areas in no-time. The same is true for the enemy side. I think that severely damages tactical gameplay. The flashy animations distract too much from the overview. The lack of a tactical view make things even worse. If Hawke is a rogue then I really feel like a frog and makes it hard to follow who is where. The waves of enemies popping up from thin air make the chaos complete.

I don't mind Rogues jumping 15 feet. I've done that before. Daggers don't weigh too much and considering Rogues wear light armor, or in Isabela's case just clothes, they don't have much weighing them down.


I do mind Warriors doing the speed dash to their enemies. That is unrealistic.


And some of the skills and talents are OTT. Mighty Blow should've just been the character slamming their weapon into the ground and creating a shockwave, or at most jumping 3 feet in the air, not 5-6 feet.

[Funkjoker]

T764 wrote...

You hated the origin stories in DAO then?

Of course not. They are believable and fit into the world. Where'd you get that from? In the last 2 months, I was on my n-th playthrough in DAO^^

[Melness]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And some of the skills and talents are OTT. Mighty Blow should've just been the character slamming their weapon into the ground and creating a shockwave, or at most jumping 3 feet in the air, not 5-6 feet.

Not that I think you're speaking of Dragon Age II being OTT as opposed to Origins. But I'm playing through the Siege of Denerim right now and Loghain froze a horde of darkspawn by yelling.

[TEWR]

Just remembered the JRPG with a choice of romance.

Star Ocean: Till the End of Time was probably the best story where the main antagonist isn't evil for the sake of being evil. The main protagonist is far from being stupid or naive. You get a choice on what he says in a lot of scenarios (called PAs who can help determine who Fayt Leingod, the protagonist, hangs out with or falls in love with at the end).

In fact, you don't even learn who the true villain is until much later and why he's doing what he's doing.

[Bejos_]

Melness wrote...

Bejos_ wrote...
It also undermines the overall artistic merit of your work.

I'd say, only to those that have any reason to complain - that being they personally dislike the new art direction.

It would be interesting to have art critics give their opinions of both DA:O and DA2 independently, and as a franchise. I will bet $1000 that DA:O generally comes out a winner and that the "artist" (Bioware) is seen to have devalued the DA line by shifting their artstyle so much (and in such a sloppy, unfocused direction).

The Godfather 2 would not have been such a critical success if it did not follow so well in The Godfather's footsteps while simultaneously adding to the Godfather world.

Edit: Not that I'm comparing DA and The Godfather. The Godfather was boring.

Modifié par Bejos_, 13 juin 2011 - 07:25 .

[Harid]

What about the Massacre scream that killed weak mobs caught in it.
Rain of Arrows, Flicker. Truth be told, no one would care about the OTT nature of DA2, if the game was good.

So I'd rather people explain why the game wasn't good when the OTT nature of a few talents isn't what is really making you angry, or you woulda been complaining about the OTT nature of DA:O.

[Harid]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Just remembered the JRPG with a choice of romance.

Star Ocean: Till the End of Time was probably the best story where the main antagonist isn't evil for the sake of being evil. The main protagonist is far from being stupid or naive. You get a choice on what he says in a lot of scenarios (called PAs who can help determine who Fayt Leingod, the protagonist, hangs out with or falls in love with at the end).

In fact, you don't even learn who the true villain is until much later and why he's doing what he's doing.

But the plot twist.  That plot twist. . .

I don't play RPG's for the dating sim, but if you do, play Persona 3 and 4 or something.

Modifié par Harid, 13 juin 2011 - 07:25 .

[TEWR]

Melness wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And some of the skills and talents are OTT. Mighty Blow should've just been the character slamming their weapon into the ground and creating a shockwave, or at most jumping 3 feet in the air, not 5-6 feet.

Not that I think you're speaking of Dragon Age II being OTT as opposed to Origins. But I'm playing through the Siege of Denerim right now and Loghain froze a horde of darkspawn by yelling.

War Cry? Yea, Origins had over the top attacks as well I don't deny that.


 But that shouldn't freeze them....

[TEWR]

Harid wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Just remembered the JRPG with a choice of romance.

Star Ocean: Till the End of Time was probably the best story where the main antagonist isn't evil for the sake of being evil. The main protagonist is far from being stupid or naive. You get a choice on what he says in a lot of scenarios (called PAs who can help determine who Fayt Leingod, the protagonist, hangs out with or falls in love with at the end).

In fact, you don't even learn who the true villain is until much later and why he's doing what he's doing.

But the plot twist.  That plot twist. . .

I loved the plot twist.

[Harid]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Harid wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Just remembered the JRPG with a choice of romance.

Star Ocean: Till the End of Time was probably the best story where the main antagonist isn't evil for the sake of being evil. The main protagonist is far from being stupid or naive. You get a choice on what he says in a lot of scenarios (called PAs who can help determine who Fayt Leingod, the protagonist, hangs out with or falls in love with at the end).

In fact, you don't even learn who the true villain is until much later and why he's doing what he's doing.

But the plot twist.  That plot twist. . .

I loved the plot twist.

Yeah, that's fine and I feel great for you, but most Star Ocean fans did not, and I think it aided to kill the series.  Well, that and Star Ocean 4.

Modifié par Harid, 13 juin 2011 - 07:26 .

[TEWR]

Harid wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Harid wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Just remembered the JRPG with a choice of romance.

Star Ocean: Till the End of Time was probably the best story where the main antagonist isn't evil for the sake of being evil. The main protagonist is far from being stupid or naive. You get a choice on what he says in a lot of scenarios (called PAs who can help determine who Fayt Leingod, the protagonist, hangs out with or falls in love with at the end).

In fact, you don't even learn who the true villain is until much later and why he's doing what he's doing.

But the plot twist.  That plot twist. . .

I loved the plot twist.

Yeah, that's fine and I feel great for you, but most Star Ocean fans did not, and I think it aided to kill the series.  Well, that and Star Ocean 4.

How could they not love it?


And what was so bad about SO4? I haven't played that yet sadly

[AngryFrozenWater]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

My main objection against the current DA2 combat isn't things like oversized weapons, but the jumping around the battlefield. It makes especially rogue characters hard to predict. You can position your companions on the battlefield, but they keep jumping to other areas in no-time. The same is true for the enemy side. I think that severely damages tactical gameplay. The flashy animations distract too much from the overview. The lack of a tactical view make things even worse. If Hawke is a rogue then I really feel like a frog and makes it hard to follow who is where. The waves of enemies popping up from thin air make the chaos complete.

I don't mind Rogues jumping 15 feet. I've done that before. Daggers don't weigh too much and considering Rogues wear light armor, or in Isabela's case just clothes, they don't have much weighing them down.

I do mind Warriors doing the speed dash to their enemies. That is unrealistic.

And some of the skills and talents are OTT. Mighty Blow should've just been the character slamming their weapon into the ground and creating a shockwave, or at most jumping 3 feet in the air, not 5-6 feet.

Ah. No, that isn't what I mean, sir. It's not the lack of realism that bothers me. It's the chaos it creates and characters become hard to follow on screen. It severely limits and damages tactical gameplay.

[Zanallen]

Bejos_ wrote...

Matrix's art shifts are so minimal they may as well not be there.

The movie LOTR has a distinct visual style. It's based on a book which, while it may describe things, leaves the visual style open to interpretation by the director of the movie. You can't look to a text-only source as a foundation for the visual style of a visual and audio product.

You're telling me that if LOTR's look and tone changed from what it is in the first movie to ... Alice In Wonderlands's look and tone, that would be okay? If that's okay with you, personally, hey, good for you. But any professional working on a project knows you don't do that unless there's a very good reason e.g. you've entered a parallel universe, the character through whom you're supposed to be experiencing the story goes crazy, whatever.

Changing visual style (as well as other things; but let's not go there because it has no relevance to the JRPG topic) is very sloppy and unprofessional. It also undermines the overall artistic merit of your work.

Anyway, I'm noticing that you pointed out that FF's characters look more realistic than most anime characters. For purposes of this thread, "anime" and "JRPG" are terms that should be separated. It bears repeating.

I said no to LotR because it is grounded in an established world with multiple novels and movies released before the Jackson version was even started. And you can look to a written description to design the visual aspects of a movie. That is why there is such a backlash when movie versions change a character's established look or alter a scene. Dragon Age has no such issue, especially since DA2 is set in a completely different location within Thedas.

Matrix changed quite a bit. We went from a movie set in a virtual version of our world with stylized combat to figthing robotic squids and throwing raves in some post apocalyptic human compound with a battle scene that looks like it was ripped from Exosquad and then finished it all up with Super Neo using his powers outside of the Matrix and fighting a billion agent Smiths in ridiculously stylized battle.

[Funkjoker]

Zanallen wrote...

Loghain wasn't the villain of DA:O. He was the catalyst that sets the story in motion. He helps create the setting by betraying his King. Also, his motivations are really all that good. He's just a paranoid old man who can't get over his hatred for Orlais. The Archdemon is the antagonist, a mindless evil intent on destroying all life. And while it may be a corrupted Old God, that doesn't make it any less cliched.

Kefka was power hungry, yes. And a sadist. He strived to use the power of the three godesses to become a god himself and betrayed his emperor to achieve that goal. Then he pretty much wrecks the world with a massive death laser.

We also have Golbez from FFIV. He is the mind controlled older brother of the main character tasked with collecting the crytals that allows him to reach the prison that his master is trapped in. He plans to release his master and allow him to take over the world.

Mithos, from Tales of Symphonia that you criticized, was a great hero who wanted to bring peace to the world. However, with his sister's death, he loses it and decides that the only way to create peace and end discrimination is to kill everyone who resists.

There are plenty of strong, well written villains in JRPGs.

ATM, I'm playing Tales of Symphonia, however, I only play it for 20 minutes or so, because the dialogue and the characters are so absolutely horrible cliched written, I don't know if I ever end this game.

Did you read The Stolen Throne for DAO? Loghain's motives are valid -- his character is well written.

I cannot say much to the other bosses, because I don't have the desire to play them again. I'd rather play DAO or Witcher again.

Yeah, these villains you present may have some strong reasons, but are they portrayed good enough, or do they state their reasons in some sub-clause?

A game must be a hit in many aspects -- and the JRPGs fail for me in many aspects, even if they have good bosses.

Harid wrote...

And I disagree, it kinda is.  If you are
going to go to the extreme to make us supermen to establish the power
fantasy, you might as well go all out and make a reason for it.  One of
the reasons I liked BG1 was that Sarevok is just. . .better than you,
but due to circumstance you beat him.  Since then, Bioware has gone the
route where you are better than everyone else, which is in the JRPG's
that they seemingly like to troll.

Good point, Harid!!

Modifié par Jean-Funk Van Damme, 13 juin 2011 - 07:36 .

[TEWR]

Ah. Yes it can be problematic.




Random side note: One of the most problematic things for me in Origins was the attack at Redcliffe. The battle was easy, but what was hard was making sure that fat tub of laziness Lloyd didn't get himself killed. I was constantly pausing going "Alright, where is he? Where is he.... good still alive!"

Maybe I should start bringing Wynne and her cleansing Aura for that scenario instead of Morrigan.

[Persephone]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

My main objection against the current DA2 combat isn't things like oversized weapons, but the jumping around the battlefield. It makes especially rogue characters hard to predict. You can position your companions on the battlefield, but they keep jumping to other areas in no-time. The same is true for the enemy side. I think that severely damages tactical gameplay. The flashy animations distract too much from the overview. The lack of a tactical view make things even worse. If Hawke is a rogue then I really feel like a frog and makes it hard to follow who is where. The waves of enemies popping up from thin air make the chaos complete.

I don't mind Rogues jumping 15 feet. I've done that before. Daggers don't weigh too much and considering Rogues wear light armor, or in Isabela's case just clothes, they don't have much weighing them down.

I do mind Warriors doing the speed dash to their enemies. That is unrealistic.

And some of the skills and talents are OTT. Mighty Blow should've just been the character slamming their weapon into the ground and creating a shockwave, or at most jumping 3 feet in the air, not 5-6 feet.

Ah. No, that isn't what I mean, sir. It's not the lack of realism that bothers me. It's the chaos it creates and characters become hard to follow on screen. It severely limits and damages tactical gameplay.

This I can understand. I am glad that Patch 1.03 slowed things down somewhat. I do love the fast pace, but DAII took it a bit too far with rogues IMHO. (Mage combat was spot on though) Where DAO was too slow & clunky for me, DAII (Esp. as a rogue) was too fast & hectic. Balancing it out more smoothly & giving the tactical cam back would solve all my issues. And keep the bloody mage combat from DAII!!!!

[Bejos_]

Zanallen wrote...

Bejos_ wrote...

Matrix's art shifts are so minimal they may as well not be there.

The movie LOTR has a distinct visual style. It's based on a book which, while it may describe things, leaves the visual style open to interpretation by the director of the movie. You can't look to a text-only source as a foundation for the visual style of a visual and audio product.

You're telling me that if LOTR's look and tone changed from what it is in the first movie to ... Alice In Wonderlands's look and tone, that would be okay? If that's okay with you, personally, hey, good for you. But any professional working on a project knows you don't do that unless there's a very good reason e.g. you've entered a parallel universe, the character through whom you're supposed to be experiencing the story goes crazy, whatever.

Changing visual style (as well as other things; but let's not go there because it has no relevance to the JRPG topic) is very sloppy and unprofessional. It also undermines the overall artistic merit of your work.

Anyway, I'm noticing that you pointed out that FF's characters look more realistic than most anime characters. For purposes of this thread, "anime" and "JRPG" are terms that should be separated. It bears repeating.

I said no to LotR because it is grounded in an established world with multiple novels and movies released before the Jackson version was even started. And you can look to a written description to design the visual aspects of a movie. That is why there is such a backlash when movie versions change a character's established look or alter a scene. Dragon Age has no such issue, especially since DA2 is set in a completely different location within Thedas.

Matrix changed quite a bit. We went from a movie set in a virtual version of our world with stylized combat to figthing robotic squids and throwing raves in some post apocalyptic human compound with a battle scene that looks like it was ripped from Exosquad and then finished it all up with Super Neo using his powers outside of the Matrix and fighting a billion agent Smiths in ridiculously stylized battle.

You're confusing content and style, again. I give up.

[T764]

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...

T764 wrote...

You hated the origin stories in DAO then?

Of course not. They are believable and fit into the world. Where'd you get that from? In the last 2 months, I was on my n-th playthrough in DAO^^

You said and i quote,

"Oh, and did I mention that I absolutely hate being a peasant born but ultimately the chosen one just to get the story rolling?"

What are you if not the chosen one in the six origin stories and at ostagar?
Everything up to lothering is designed to make a nobody (your character) the key figure in the world.

Edit: Because i'm an idiot.

Modifié par T764, 13 juin 2011 - 07:37 .

[Harid]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And what was so bad about SO4? I haven't played that yet sadly../../../images/forum/emoticons/uncertain.png

These 2 characters and a dip**** main character i.e. basically why JRPGs get trolled by people.

Modifié par Harid, 13 juin 2011 - 07:41 .

[Zanallen]

Harid wrote...

Golbez wasn't the villain in FFIV, Zemus/Zeromus was.  IF anything. . .he's exactly like Loghain in terms of being the catalyst of the story, but everything he did was controlled by Zemus.

True, though you see Golbez far more in FFIV than you see Loghain in DA:O. Golbez appears numerous times, screws with you, mind controls your best friend into kidnapping your girlfriend, kills your old man friend and basically just makes your life a living hell while trying to stop him. Loghain on the other hand appears in the beginning of the game and then just shows up in a couple of cinematics until the Landsmeet.

The Archdemon is the known antagonist through out the entire game pretty much. Zeromus shows up at the absolute very end of the game just so you can kill him. He's basically the consequence for not stopping Golbez and just serves as a final boss. The game would have played out the exact same if you stopped Golbez on the moon right before he freed Zemus.

[Melness]

Bejos_ wrote...

It would be interesting to have art critics give their opinions of both DA:O and DA2 independently, and as a franchise. I will bet $1000 that DA:O generally comes out a winner and that the "artist" (Bioware) is seen to have devalued the DA line by shifting their artstyle so much (and in such a sloppy, unfocused direction).

The Godfather 2 would not have been such a critical success if it did not follow so well in The Godfather's footsteps while simultaneously adding to the Godfather world.

Edit: Not that I'm comparing DA and The Godfather. The Godfather was boring.

Considering how pointless some 'art' out there can be, it would be a marginal improvement. To see some so called 'art critics' comparing two games but their opinion here would be pointless. What BioWare should do is find out wether the players like the new art direction or no, and not which side can best rationalize their concern.

If it was up to me, well, I'd opt for a middle ground. IMO, many things were improved since Origins while other not so much.

Agreed, The Godfather was boring. Especially when compared to DA.

[Funkjoker]

T764 wrote...

What are you if not the chosen one in the six origin stories and at ostagar?
Everything up to lothering is designed to make a nobody (your character) the key figure in the world.

That has been answered already. You are only a chosen among many to join an order. You are not the chosen one to save the world. You only get this role because the battle at Ostagar was a failure and with the help of some witch you survived. If it wasn't for the failure, you'd be out will other Grey Wardens kicking some Darkspawn asses. It'd be much fun, but less glory for you

Furthermore, in all origin stories there are believable settings to show you why you are competent with a sword, two daggers, magic, whatever.

In a JRPG, I'd started out being a peasant, but I already know the way of war. No order, no army, no nothing is helping me along the way -- just some idiots following me even if I want them kicked out of the party. Yes, there are also many exceptions in JRPGames, but this represents the average JRPG.

[Zanallen]

T764 wrote...

You said and i quote,

"Oh, and did I mention that I absolutely hate being a peasant born but ultimately the chosen one just to get the story rolling?"

What are you if not the chosen one in the six origin stories and at ostagar?
Everything up to lothering is designed to make a nobody (your character) the key figure in the world.

Edit: Because i'm an idiot.

This is especially true if you played Darkspawn Chronicles were it is pretty much confirmed that, without your Warden, Alistair would have screwed everything up and lost.

[Harid]

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...

T764 wrote...

What are you if not the chosen one in the six origin stories and at ostagar?
Everything up to lothering is designed to make a nobody (your character) the key figure in the world.

That has been answered already. You are only a chosen among many to join an order. You are not the chosen one to save the world. You only get this role because the battle at Ostagar was a failure and with the help of some witch you survived. If it wasn't for the failure, you'd be out will other Grey Wardens kicking some Darkspawn asses. It'd be much fun, but less glory for you

Furthermore, in all origin stories there are believable settings to show you why you are competent with a sword, two daggers, magic, whatever.

In a JRPG, I'd started out being a peasant, but I already know the way of war. No order, no army, no nothing is helping me along the way -- just some idiots following me even if I want them kicked out of the party. Yes, there are also many exceptions in JRPGames, but this represents the average JRPG.

You aren't trained in the Dalish or the Dwarven Commoner Origin.  You are just. . .that damned good, so wrong again.

Furthermore you can't bring up a bunch of what ifs to prove your point.  The point is they aren't really any different.  If in Suikoden 2, your unit wasn't slaughtered en masse to set the precursor to war, you would probably have been on the opposing side for the entire game, and likely would not have seen combat.  If in Chrono Trigger your nerd of a friend made an invention that worked properly, you would not have gone on your adventure.  But that doesn't happen.  You can't speak of that happening as if it doesn't make you the chosen one.  You still are the chosen one, par for course in a Bioware title.

Modifié par Harid, 13 juin 2011 - 07:49 .