68 réponses à ce sujet

[Walrusninja]

Just run through the whole series again, including Awakening which I hadn't played yet, before beginning DA2 at last. Hours of joy:) Loved Anders in Awakening, hilarious, great Mage. Was so excited to meet him in DA2.

Uh ...... hmm, his voice seems different, and he's gone all .... "soft"? Like really soft, like constant puppy eyes man 24/7, seems like he's about to cry all the time:blink:. Then, after realising several odd relationship options and avoiding the cheese, Anders flat out comes onto me?!?!? Anders, as in the guy who talked about retiring with a plump wife and some mistresses, finding a nice hotel and some girls etc. now he's coming onto my male character, on day 1?!?!??!!??!? WHAT! As if that wasn't bad enough, rejecting the frankly absolutely absurd character mangling arch reduces his opinion of you from the start, nice work Bioware.....

Look Bioware .... I understand you feel the need to be all politically correct and embrace the world around us. But .... you absolutely mangled the best character in Awakening! Why? How did you mess up so badly? Why do you feel the need to fiddle with everything? Dah, really irritating me. Totally made no sense whatsoever, both within his well established character and after meeting about 5 minutes before. Stuff like that, really takes you out of the experience, he may as well have turned into a Lobster or something it was that drastic and unusual a change of character.

Really disappointed Bioware. I'll probably get looked down on for this, stereotyped and labelled but hey. You ruined one of my favorite characters, then damaged my rating with him in-game for not being part of a minority. Good one.

[WidowMaker9394]

I think of Awakening Anders and DA2 Anders as two separate characters with nothing in common but their names.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Ruining readable text and productive use of punctuation: I think Walrusninja nailed it.

[ipgd]

Everyone replying to this thread is being trolled, including myself.

[ReiSilver]

and here I thought this would be about how DA2 Anders is vastly inferior/depressing/no fun/not funny compared to Awakening Anders but no, it's another OMG a MALE character was interested in MY male character! NOES! teh bisexuals have ruined MY game WAAAAH *sigh*

[Walrusninja]

I'm not trolling anyone, I was genuinely really annoyed. Not surprised I got the usual "troll", grammar police, and basically what Rei said. I'm annoyed that they took a womanising, suave, sarcy man, and made him awkwardly and clumsily bi, changed his voice, and made him really super emotional in every situation. They basically totally reversed his character. What's not to be annoyed at if you liked the character in Awakening?
Thanks for the reasonable comment Widow. I don't think there's any need to really even think that way. They are two diffrent chracters.

His whole coming onto me thing was after like 1 5 minute quest...... even in ME2 you had to work harder than that to start a relationship! My point was that it was really badly timed and awkward. The whole idea didn't make sense in the first place, the way it was presented made even less.

My post was feedback, directed at Bioware from a big fan who was confused and irritated by a clunky choice they made. If the forums resident "police" want to come tag a bit of feedback as relevant as their own as "trolling" or instantly jump in the stereotyping "oh he must be homophobic"esque wagon, help yourselves. My concerns and my opinions are my own. I don't need to agree with you and I don't need you to agree with me. I don't need a badge or approval from you to post.

Modifié par Walrusninja, 12 juin 2011 - 12:44 .

[ipgd]

I heard that when you go to bed at night, gay people come out of your closet and throw a horrifying pride parade, dancing around your room in their assless chaps and rhinestone unitards as they spread their noxious homosexual gasses into the air. And then one day, you wake up and realize you like boys.

This is clearly what happened to Anders and we must campaign against these trans-dimensional marauders before they destroy our society.

[Walrusninja]

That's wonderful ipgd, I'm really happy for you ... but what does that have to do with this situation exactly? I'm pretty sure THAT is trolling though, ironically.
At no point did I say anything anti-gay. I was anti-Bioware rewriting characters. The fact that the 2 clash was bound to cause controversy on here, but I don't hate him because he's gay, I hate him now because he's so unlike the character he was in Awakening. I like continuity, I liked Anders in Awakening. Pretty sure he's Bi not gay anyways.

Modifié par Walrusninja, 12 juin 2011 - 12:58 .

[ipgd]

Walrusninja wrote...

Pretty sure he's Bi not gay anyways.

You're right. In light of this information, I may have to rethink my hypothesis.

[FieryDove]

Different writers, different voice actor, different CC/tweaked engine makes it pretty much impossible for a returning character to...err return. I do agree Anders isn't Anders anymore for what its worth. And to throw in another dash of opinion is a better LI for male characters than female now.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I posted not because I'm the grammar police, but rather because I actually kind of like these debates sometimes, when they're readable.

Bad punctuation and formatting hurt my head, regardless of content. I have a dear friend who doesn't ever capitalize anything, not realizing that, for people like me, such things are the equivalent of scraping your nails on a chalkboard while you are speaking.

I love Awakening Anders, but I don't see his DA2 character as unrelated, or even as a rewrite. It is an interesting development, but the possibility of him having a... flexible sexuality was acknowledged as plausible by many fans before DA2 came out. I could find one of my old essays about his transformation, and why independent aspects of it make sense, if I thought people would be interested.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 12 juin 2011 - 01:10 .

[Walrusninja]

Fair point FieryDove. Still, most transferred pretty well or were at least the same person.

I can understand them wanting to cover all bases, that's fine, but why change an already established character so much. Make a new one? More the merrier! If they'd established him that way in Awakening, I would've been fine with it, believe that or not as you will, it won't affect my opinion. But in Awakening all his dialogue was quite womaniser-esque. The fact that me being surprised at his "oh hai", "relationship time?" intro, damaged our friendship before it even began is daft. I'd known him for a whole 15 minutes!

Modifié par Walrusninja, 12 juin 2011 - 01:14 .

[ipgd]

Okay, I'll reply seriously:


    * Anders: Why do spirits seek out mages? I've always wondered.
    * Justice: You speak of demons. I am not a demon.
    * Anders: Aren't demons simply spirits with unique and sparkling personalities?
    * Justice: They have been perverted by their desires.
    * Anders: But what do they want from mages?
    * Justice: Perhaps they wish the same as I: silence.

    * Justice: I understand that you struggle against your oppression, mage.
    * Anders: I avoid my oppression. That's not quite the same thing, is it?
    * Justice: Why do you not strike a blow against your oppressors? Ensure they can do this to no one else?
    * Anders: Because it sounds difficult?
    * Justice: Apathy is a weakness.
    * Anders: So is death. I'm just saying.

    * Justice: I believe you have a responsibility to your fellow mages.
    * Anders: That bit of self-righteousness is directed at me?
    * Justice: You have seen oppression and are now free. You must act to free those who remain oppressed.
    * Anders: Or I could mind my business, in case the Chantry comes knocking.
    * Justice: But this is not right. You have an obligation.
    * Anders: Yes, well... welcome to the world, spirit.

    * Anders: Are you saying that you could become a demon, Justice?
    * Justice: I said no such thing.
    * Anders: You said that demons were spirits perverted by their desires.
    * Justice: I have no such desires.
    * Anders: You must have some desires...
    * Justice: I have none! Desist your questions!

    * Anders: I apologize, Justice. I didn't mean to suggest you would become a demon.
    * Justice: I should certainly hope not.
    * Anders: I just wondered what relation there is between spirits and demons. Demons are a worry to any mage.
    * Justice: I do not know what makes demons as they are. Such evil angers me, but I do not understand it.
    * Anders: Well, I hope you never come to understand.
    * Justice: I as well, mage. More than you could possibly know.

    * Velanna: What will happen to you once Kristoff's body has fully decayed?
    * Justice: I do not know. Perhaps I will be drawn back to the Fade?
    * Velanna: Or remain here, bound to the tiny motes of dust that once were Kristoff.
    * Justice: Do you think that's possible?
    * Velanna: I know less about this than you. How securely is your spirit bound to this body? Can you leave it?
    * Justice: I could, if I chose to.
    * Velanna: Do you want to leave it?
    * Justice: I... do not know anymore.

    * Velanna: It seems you actually like this world.
    * Justice: I do. I have had experiences I cannot even begin to explain.
    * Velanna: A pity that you'll soon fall apart.
    * Justice: I could find and inhabit another corpse. A female body might offer a different perspective, wouldn't you think?
    * Velanna: If I die in your presence, you stay away from my body, you hear me?
    * Justice: Your objection is noted.

    * Nathaniel: Will you ever need to switch bodies, Justice?
    * Justice: I did not even wish to possess this one. Why would I switch to another?
    * Nathaniel: You might need to. Unless you wish to look even more obviously like a corpse.
    * Justice: I...would prefer not to think of it.

    * Justice: This... thing you spoke of. Switching bodies.
    * Nathaniel: Not a favorite topic of yours, I take it?
    * Justice: Would such a thing be permitted? Would it not be considered... abominable?
    * Nathaniel: If they're dead, it's not as if they need the body, Justice.
    * Justice: But I can still feel the man who once lived. I know his body, his... It is not just a body.
    * Nathaniel: That's...good, isn't it? I'd rather you felt that way.
    * Justice: Perhaps you are right.

    * Nathaniel: What if you found a living body to possess?
    * Justice: Even if I knew how, I would not possess the living. Such is an act for demons.
    * Nathaniel: What if the person were willing?
    * Justice: Why would a mortal ever allow such a thing?
    * Nathaniel: For life. For love. Perhaps together, you can do what they cannot do alone. If you gave instead of taking, I would consider you no demon.
    * Justice: It is...something to consider. Thank you, Nathaniel.

And then this gem:

"That ballista is conveniently placed, isn’t it? Well, I’m always up for a spot of iconoclasm!"



This was intended from the start. Awakening Anders exists to inform the tragedy of his character arc in DA2. You are supposed to look at what he was and what he became and see just how much the merge affected him.

Modifié par ipgd, 12 juin 2011 - 01:25 .

[FieryDove]

ipgd wrote...

This was intended from the start. Awakening Anders exists to inform the tragedy of his character arc in DA2. You are supposed to look at what he was and what he became and see just how much the merge affected him.

Good point but I played DAA and don't buy it. Sure some things change but all?

First off I do believe his voice actor was going to return only to get nixxed late. I think maybe because now Cullen had a larger role? Just a guess.

Also neither Anders nor Justice were anti-female. Sure a female hawke can romance Anders in DA2 if you like to bludgeon him into it. Anders is much more open and *friendly* with male hawke's. Not imho.

Modifié par FieryDove, 12 juin 2011 - 01:27 .

[Walrusninja]

I appreciate the effort and time you put into that ipgd. There's bits in that that could maybe be taken as hinting at it I suppose, I think it's down to view though. To me if anything it's perhaps hinting at the ideas and expanse of love and relationships as a whole. I think the thing really is that it was nowhere near developed enough. My experience of him was more that he just cracked jokes, the odd time mentioned wenches and mistresses but nothing very deep. Then at the very beginning of DA2 it's the total other way round, it's presented in a very blunt, in your face awkward way. Even ME2 characters took more time to start a relationship with as I mentioned.

I guess the problem is really a lack of communication on Bioware's part. Underdeveloped characters that are well worthy of the development, and a poor implementation of relationships.

Modifié par Walrusninja, 12 juin 2011 - 01:27 .

[ipgd]

There's foreshadowing and then there's "TEN banters that directly allude to the themes covered in DA2".

Play Awakening again. It becomes fairly obvious that his humor is a defense mechanism and that he is not all there in the head. Recall he spent a year in solitary confinement.

Anders has plenty of development in both of the games. There is much more there to him than you seem to have taken away from it. Take the time to examine it beneath the superficial level and it won't be so surprising.

Modifié par ipgd, 12 juin 2011 - 01:30 .

[FieryDove]

ipgd wrote...

Anders has plenty of development in both of the games. There is much more there to him than you seem to have taken away from it. Take the time to examine it beneath the superficial level and it won't be so surprising.

Nope...don't see it. Not that much change.

I think his bout of vengeance/cannibalism did most of it.
http://social.biowar...0/index/6997022

Modifié par FieryDove, 12 juin 2011 - 01:38 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

For fun, here's the essay on what happens to Anders I wrote a few months ago. It is long. I am sorry.

In DA:A we have snarky, charming Anders who wants nothing more than some small measure of freedom. Basic rights, like the ability to choose what food he eats and to maybe find a girl to settle down with. He's even willing to take up the mantle of the grey wardens to do it, content to just appreciate the smell of pies and freedom between darkspawn hunts. Then, during the bridging short story, you learn that the Chantry wouldn't even let Anders have THAT much freedom, saddling him with a Templar warden to harass and control him (I'm betting that jerk is the one who made him give away his cat.) Finally, he gets tired of waiting for the Templars to come up with a new reason to execute him,and joins with Justice, with the hope of freeing future mages from the same torment.

I think that Anders knew that joining with Justice would give him the will to fight back, rather than just running. I think he had finally realized that running wasn't ever going to actually work. Even allowing himself to be pressed into Warden service and tainted by darkspawn nightmares forever had only won him a few short months of friendship and freedom before the Templars arranged to have him crushed under their heel again. I think Anders realized he didn't have the strength to do anything but run, and that he needed Justice to do more than that... DA:A Anders was a lover, not a fighter.


Now, even inhabiting a corpse, Justice had access to some of its memories, the desires of its old life. Inhabiting Anders, Justice is hit full force with decades of memories of injustice. Anders had been able to view these memories through a veil of humor, selfishness, stubbornness and self-preservation, which had kept him remarkably well-adjusted for someone submitted to that much psychological torment. Justice has no such filters; he's hit with the wrong-ness of everything that has happened to Anders full force, and there is only one way to respond: with Vengeance.

I think that Anders knew that merging with Justice would allow him to fight back, but he didn't realize that it would prevent him from using any of his coping mechanisms that allowed him to maintain some kind of psychological distance from everything that had happened to him. His ironic detachment had prevented him from ever having to deal with the fact that he'd never have a family, never fall in love, never be able to just live, but as Justice/Anders he was incapable of ever forgetting it, incapable of laughing it away with vain hopes and daydreams of his next escape. Every waking moment, he's confronted with the reality of it, the injustice of it.

Even then, he tries to exercise self-control, maintaining some of his humanity even with Justice's constant pressure to take more direct action. Initially he restricts himself to healing people, helping mages to escape, and distributing pro-mage literature. All the while, Justice is still seeing and experiencing all the injustice Anders suffers, and obsessing over it. After seven years of trying every possible peaceful solution, nothing has improved. Even the Anders part of the personality realizes that the small, reasonable efforts mean nothing: nothing will ever change for mages as long as the Chantry is preaching that mages are proof of the Maker's hate, and no amount of clinics or manifestos are going to ever change that.

Friended Anders admits this to Justice, and agrees that they have to do something desperate, drastic. He's been living the lie that there is another way, that he is something other than the cause of mages, but now he has to admit that he can't fight against it anymore. The inability to ignore injustice against mages has stripped away all his defenses, and he finally has to admit that all his reasonable attempts have accomplished nothing. He has a choice - accept that all mages forever are doomed to be denied a normal life, love, and happiness because peaceful change will not and cannot work... or take the only action he can see that might give future mages a chance at everything he has been denied. With a spirit of Justice inside you, this choice isn't a choice at all. There is only one way to proceed, and the Chantry goes up.

Rivaled Anders has been molded to believe that his inability to ignore injustice is a weakness, a failing, and a curse. He now believes that it would have been better if he had never joined with Justice, never left the Wardens, maybe never even left the tower. He is walking evidence of the weakness of Mages, proof positive that they do not deserve the freedom he has always hoped for. Here, he is at war with himself, with the Justice-focused part determined to get vengeance for everything that has been done to mages, while the Anders-focused part believes that, by becoming an abomination, he may have retroactively justified all that he has suffered. There is nothing left for him to do but die. Justice wins the battle long enough to plant and set off the bomb, and the Chantry goes up.

Now, no matter which way he has played so far, the player has the final choice. He can choose the cause of mages or the cause of the templars, and he can kill or spare Anders. There is a reason you have to choose your side before you pull out the knife... so Anders can see the results of what he has done.

At this point he has lost any illusion that he has an existence beyond the cause of mages. If you kill him, justice is done and he both pays for his crime and dies a martyr. If you spare him and make him fight against the mages, the part of him that believes he is cursed and weak takes over, and he cooperates with you, knowing he must die soon because he cannot control the monster inside of him. If you spare him and let him join you to fight the templars, you allow him to scrabble together some hope that he may someday have an existence beyond the cause, that this was all worth it.

It's incredibly powerful, and the fact that there are all these different endings, with small changes giving Anders' story a profoundly different conclusion... it's great storytelling, and it actually serves as a perfect example of a situation where the narrative capabilities of games are greater than the narrative capabilities of other media. In any other telling of the story, we would only see one of these ends, and could only guess at the others. Here, we can see all the possibilities, and shape which one becomes reality.

[Walrusninja]

I always invest in the games, I just read him differently. I read most of what he said as jokes, I found him hard to take seriously. It's one thing that people pooling together all available info and annalysing it from a specific angle see it, but if most people totally miss it even "completionists", that's a bit useless. And regardless, the change is still really radical.

Edit: thanks for the long article on it( genuinely:happy:). I like the idea of the merge with Justice really stirring things up. We didn't see any of that though. The way it is initially presented doesn't do the idea justice to my mind.

Modifié par Walrusninja, 12 juin 2011 - 01:45 .

[FieryDove]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

For fun, here's the essay on what happens to Anders I wrote a few months ago. It is long. I am sorry. 

oooo Don't be sorry that was very well done. Thank you for posting/reposting.

I do think however if they have returning characters they should keep the same writers and voice talent or its just not...them. imho

[ipgd]

FieryDove wrote...

Nope...don't see it. Not that much change.

He merged with a spirit, guy.

The entire point is that he changed drastically. And it is not supposed to be an unambiguous change for the better. You are supposed to look back at Awakening Anders and see how much better off he was before he merged with Justice, because that puts weight behind his words when he says it was a mistake. Without Awakening, it is less impactful. His arc is a tragedy.

Walrusninja wrote...

I always invest in the games, I just read him differently. I read most of what he said as jokes, I found him hard to take seriously. It's one thing that people pooling together all available info and annalysing it from a specific angle see it, but if most people totally miss it even "completionists", that's a bit useless. And regardless, the change is still really radical.

It's not like all of us only came to these conclusions after pouring hours over every bit of dialogue. It's a conclusion I arrived upon immediately after experiencing the game and all evidence I can find supports that.

If the worth of a narrative were only judged by the least attentive people, art would be in a very sorry state indeed.

Modifié par ipgd, 12 juin 2011 - 01:47 .

[Tealsie]

Walrusninja wrote...
  And regardless, the change is still really radical.

I think that's part of the point. That there is this drastic change. It sort of... strengthens the whole "don't play with demons or spirits, kiddies. Bad things can happen!" lines that npcs kept throwing about in Origins.
And it's not as if he's changed completely. There is some of "old Anders" peeking through at a few points in DA2. More depending on what path/dialogue you take.

Edit: or, pretty much what was said in the post above this one.

Modifié par Tealsie, 12 juin 2011 - 01:48 .

[Walrusninja]

That's fine ipgd, but there's obviously a fair few people who didn't see it that way at all. Depriving them of the insight and making for DA2's "change" seem totally confusing. My confusion and irritation was genuine, and there are others even here who were in the same boat.

I dunno. I probably would've had no problem if they'd

A. Had the original voice
B. Not had Anders immediately come onto me. Develop that through the story like other relationships, trust and friendship needs to be developed. I hope the others aren't done like that at least, not that far in:?

Modifié par Walrusninja, 12 juin 2011 - 01:50 .

[FieryDove]

ipgd wrote...

He merged with a spirit, guy.

Yes, Justice did seem male...but maybe spirits can seem however they want. I don't think *that* matters.

I agree his whole life is a tradegy like he said a giant rock being pushed uphill.

[AtreiyaN7]

Really? The impression that I got in DA:A was that Anders had a fair amount of repressed anger, resentment and bitterness towards the templars. He just covered it up with a lot of snark, and while he was amusing and lighthearted, he was also a bit self-serving - and when you get down to it, he was rather selfish. DA:A Justice opened his eyes to the possibility that the cause of the mages was worth championing. It was pretty clear to me from the banter between Justice and Anders and Nate in particular that Justice merging with someone was a possibility. For all the good intentions that Justice may have had in proposing it to Anders post-DA:A, the buried anger that Anders carried was enough to warp Justice into Vengeance. So now you have the merged Anders who has (evidently) killed several people, done who knows what else and is deeply tormented over what he's done and what he's become. I see DA2's Ander as being a logical progression, whereas having the same old snarky Anders who didn't seem to have a care in the world would have amounted to not letting his character change and evolve. Just because someone personally feels like a character has been "ruined" doesn't make it so.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 12 juin 2011 - 01:49 .