68 réponses à ce sujet

[FieryDove]

What I want to know is Justice a new kind of demon *Vengeance* or still considered a spirit now? When we are in the fade the old Justice seems to come out...I really wish they would have let us *talk* with him more it was a wasted opportunity. imho

[ipgd]

Walrusninja wrote...

That's fine ipgd, but there's obviously a fair few people who didn't see it that way at all. Depriving them of the insight and making for DA2's "change" seem totally confusing. My confusion and irritation was genuine, and there are others even here who were in the same boat.

There are a fair few people who just don't get it and apparently don't care to, to be blunt. "They Changed It Now It Sucks" is such a prevailing sentiment that no amount of artistic or authorial intent will sway them.

It's not a particularly difficult to follow story. The reasons most commonly cited for anger over Anders's change feel reactionary at best, with the example of, say, "OH NO I AM A MAN AND ANOTHER MAN IS HITTING ON ME AND I DO NOT LIKE THIS". You become wrapped up in the immediate superficial details and overlook the subtleties that underpin the narrative.

FieryDove wrote...

ipgd wrote...

He merged with a spirit, guy.

Yes, Justice did seem male...but maybe spirits can seem however they want. I don't think *that* matters.

wat.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Walrusninja wrote...

That's fine ipgd, but there's obviously a fair few people who didn't see it that way at all. Depriving them of the insight and making for DA2's "change" seem totally confusing. My confusion and irritation was genuine, and there are others even here who were in the same boat.

Here is a problem. I apologize in advance if this comes out the wrong way.

Sometimes, a character's arc in a video game is so scripted, so outlined step-by-step, so monologued about that I cannot stand that character. This happens in most JRPGs.

I'm used to thinking about characters, analyzing them, trying to figure out their motivations... at least, I'm used to this when I read books, especially "literary" fiction. If we meet a character, leave him, and then meet him later, radically changed... the confusion I feel is part of what the story is trying to do. Solving the mystery is a huge part of the fun of reading the story. Why is he so different? How could he have changed so much? These are all puzzles, and solving them gives me a burst of endorphines.

For me, DA2 Anders was the best version of this drug. Every problem he had, every tick, every change, they were all little mysteries, and solving each one gave me another little story in my head, another burst of the drug that is being clever. Too clever. Too clever to enjoy most things and not be a bitter, cynical husk who rolls her eyes at everything.

You can tell a story in such a way that nobody could ever be possibly confused by the character development, and you lose people like me. You can tell a story in such a way that you have to think really hard and make up your own stories in order to make it all fit together, and you lose people like you.

The lesson here is that they probably needed to bowl this a bit more down the center. Some people live to do the work of filling in the blanks themselves. Others view that work as... well... unnecessary work, and resent it.

Hopefully they're learning, and will split the difference next time.

[upsettingshorts]

The game practically beats you over the head with the intent of the change to the point that it was almost overdone.

And yet, there appear to be plenty of folks who were confused or didn't understand and think this change was done casually and for no purpose.

You can't win.

[ipgd]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

[snip]

I didn't find Anders's arc to be particularly esoteric. It was almost obvious, honestly.

Why people continue to miss the point, I'll never know (actually, I know why, but it is a reason that never fails to exasperate me). I very much hope they continue as they have instead of catering to people who will never be satisfied.

[SurelyForth]

FieryDove wrote...

First off I do believe his voice actor was going to return only to get nixxed late. I think maybe because now Cullen had a larger role? Just a guess.

Also neither Anders nor Justice were anti-female. Sure a female hawke can romance Anders in DA2 if you like to bludgeon him into it. Anders is much more open and *friendly* with male hawke's. Not imho.

Actually, he flirts first and sweetly with a female the same as he does a male, he's just more (bleargh) concerned with hurting her because he's an abomination/apostate/revolutionary (and he gives rivalry if she rejects him). There is absolutely no bludgeoning involved. Males get a better Act 1 conversation, but he still keeps his hands and his feelings to himself until Act 2 and then, besides some superficial differences in dialogue, it's the same. 

And the reason they went with a different VA was because Ellis could only do one or the other because of other time commitments.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 12 juin 2011 - 02:02 .

[leggywillow]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Really? The impression that I got in DA:A was that Anders had a fair amount of repressed anger, resentment and bitterness towards the templars. He just covered it up with a lot of snark

Yeah, this.  I must say, I really don't get how so many people seemed to miss that aspect of his character.  It couldn't have been more obvious if he had a sign around his neck that said "Hello!  I am masking my deep issues with light humor and obvious deflection, which is a fascinating device commonly used in the real world!

[SurelyForth]

leggywillow wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Really? The impression that I got in DA:A was that Anders had a fair amount of repressed anger, resentment and bitterness towards the templars. He just covered it up with a lot of snark

Yeah, this.  I must say, I really don't get how so many people seemed to miss that aspect of his character.  It couldn't have been more obvious if he had a sign around his neck that said "Hello!  I am masking my deep issues with light humor and obvious deflection, which is a fascinating device commonly used in the real world!

I'm pretty sure it's on my family crest.

And he snarls in Awakening. A few times, and in seemingly innocuous conversations. That's another clue.

[FieryDove]

SurelyForth wrote...

Actually, he flirts first and sweetly with a female the same as he does a male, he's just more (bleargh) concerned with hurting her because he's an abomination/apostate/revolutionary (and he gives rivalry if she rejects him). There is absolutely no bludgeoning involved. Males get a better Act 1 conversation, but he still keeps his hands and his feelings to himself until Act 2 and then, besides some superficial differences in dialogue, it's the same. 

And the reason they went with a different VA was because Ellis could only do one or the other because of other time commitments.

So you are saying he is worried about hurting a female hawke but not a male hawke? This has been brought up before and it didn't fly well. But maybe you are right.

To break it down:

If female hawke:
I'll hurt you, I'll break your heart, i'll hurt you, I'll hurt you, this will be a disaster, I told you i would break your heart.

If male hawke:
Conversation, conversation, conversations, I told you I would break your heart.

Not imho.

As to th VA I swore he tweeted or Fb'ed early on he was going to be Anders again but that got changed. Maybe it wasn't because Cullen had a larger role, it was just late to decide after the game was well underway.

ipgd wrote...

wat.

Exactly.

[Walrusninja]

There's no need to "win", no need for everyone to agree either. The idea of these forums is to provide feedback for Bioware. Even just looking at stuff like this provides some interesting insight into how we each perceive things, how different people read stuff etc. Not that I think they'll read this, but you get my point I hope.

I don't want it to be blatantly obvious, I'm not a fan at all of that either. I think they maybe created something here which led to 2 very different views. Neither is wrong, it's just the way we are as humans, we see things differently.
I had actually heard that there was some whole commotion about character change between Awakening and 2 along these lines. When I met Anders in Awakening, I wondered, but his actions told me otherwise so I was convinced the fuss couldn't be about him.
I didn't see it, but we're all different and we all see things differently, which obviously makes things awkward. I still feel that this was poorly communicated. As such an interesting idea and deep story, it stinks a bit that many will totally miss it and get "wtfbbq" instead.
I appreciate the responses and time from you lot here immensly in helping me work it out myself and look forward to unravelling this now. I don't regret my original post (too much hah). It's raw, you can't beat honest feelings. I'm not one to come on and complain either, that genuinely frustrated me in my back to back Dragon Age marathon. I guess it's a fine line for Bioware to tread, hard to get the balance right sometimes. You don't want stuff glaringly obvious, but you don't want it to soar clean over people's heads.

I'm no genious, feel free to throw algebra etc. at me and watch me chuck it back. I take games like Dragon Age fairly seriously though, explore every nook and cranny, do every quest, read the entire codex etc. and I missed that story line, even thoguh I was looking for it. If I missed it with that approach, how many others did? Pity. I'm aware that you don't want it to be obvious to all, but I think it's a little too hidden at the moment.

Modifié par Walrusninja, 12 juin 2011 - 02:12 .

[hoorayforicecream]

FieryDove wrote...

As to th VA I swore he tweeted or Fb'ed early on he was going to be Anders again but that got changed. Maybe it wasn't because Cullen had a larger role, it was just late to decide after the game was well underway.

According to David Gaider, it was "shenanigans" and "circumstances beyond their control" that made Ellis only able to do Cullen's voice.

[SurelyForth]

FieryDove wrote...

So you are saying he is worried about hurting a female hawke but not a male hawke? This has been brought up before and it didn't fly well. But maybe you are right.

To break it down:

If female hawke:
I'll hurt you, I'll break your heart, i'll hurt you, I'll hurt you, this will be a disaster, I told you i would break your heart.

If male hawke:
Conversation, conversation, conversations, I told you I would break your heart.

Not imho.

I can only remember one conversation where he tells F!Hawke he'll break her heart, and that's the first one. He might say something like that in the first convo in Act 2, but he also calls her sweetheart if you flirt with him and says that he'd drown them both in blood to keep her safe which...sounds fairly insane committed. 

[edit] I didn't know he didn't have the line about "this will be a disaster" with M!Hawke. Since it's proceeded by super kiss and is followed with "but I can't live without it" I don't really count that as him not wanting to be with her. Quite the opposite, in fact. [/edit]

And my guess is that he doesn't tell dude Hawke he'll break his heart right off the bat because that would make the whole conversation ****** off the homophobes even more than it already does.

And and, Gaider confirmed the VA thing...it's possible Ellis recorded a few lines for Anders before they sorted it out, but who knows. 

Modifié par SurelyForth, 12 juin 2011 - 02:25 .

[Deztyn]

ipgd wrote...

This was intended from the start. Awakening Anders exists to inform the tragedy of his character arc in DA2. You are supposed to look at what he was and what he became and see just how much the merge affected him.

Intended from the start? Doubtful. It's more likely they decided to use Anders (or Justice), looked back on Awakening and then chose his/their role in DA2. In Awakening Anders is optional. Justice is optional. Both can die in Vigil's Keep. Both have independent epilogues that are irreconcilable with DA2 and their merging. Those banters are more like "Funny Aneurysm" Moments.

If it was really deliberate foreshadowing than the Anders/Justice arc is still terribly written, just for a different set of reasons.

Modifié par Deztyn, 12 juin 2011 - 02:26 .

[upsettingshorts]

Walrusninja wrote...

There's no need to "win", no need for everyone to agree either. The idea of these forums is to provide feedback for Bioware. 

When I said, "You can't win" I was referring to BioWare's writers, not any posters on the forum.

The point of my post, restated, is that they were so clear with what they were doing that it wasn't even subtle, and yet people still don't get it.  So if they sacrificed any nuance for the sake of understanding, that failed too.  Hence it being a no-win scenario for them.

Deztyn wrote...

Intended from the start? Doubtful.

Bring Anders, Justice, and Nathaniel with you around in DA:A and there may as well be bright neon arrows pointing towards what happens in DA2.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 12 juin 2011 - 02:31 .

[ipgd]

Deztyn wrote...

Intended from the start? Doubtful. It's more likely they decided to use Anders (or Justice), looked back on Awakening and then chose his/their role in DA2. In Awakening Anders is optional. Justice is optional. Both can die in Vigil's Keep. Both have independent epilogues that are irreconcilable with DA2 and their merging. Those banters are more like "Funny Aneurysm" Moments.

You really think they'd write ten banters directly referencing what happens in DA2? Maybe if it were one or two I could chalk it up to a funny coincidence, but ten? And the iconoclasm line, dear god. It's so Anvilicious (two can play this game, sir -- say goodbye to your evening) that I don't know how you could possibly take it any other way.

Of course, if you want to hate it, you will.

[Collider]

My biggest annoyance with Anders:
Almost the only way to avoid the "flirt, flirt, or break heart" conversation (that is to say, the part where you have to either use the flirt or break heart options)
conversation with Anders as a pro-mage character apparently is the
"Keep your personal issues to yourself. Our relationship is strictly professional." line.
It's either flirt or be rude.
Where's the platonic friend option?
It almost felt like I already had to choose whether my Hawke was going to romance him.

[Deztyn]

You really think they'd let you skip their recruitment, let them die at the keep and write in epilogues that show what they do for years after the events of Awakening if they planned the entire thing out from the start?

You're approaching if from the belief that their DA2 arc was preplanned and saying look at these banters they 'prove' it. But you're ignoring the other evidence that their fate wasn't preplanned. Like everything that happens in Awakening that needs retconning in order for their role in DA2 to happen.

(Bah. I don't fear tvtropes, tvtropes fears me!)

Modifié par Deztyn, 12 juin 2011 - 02:46 .

[upsettingshorts]

Deztyn wrote...

You really think they'd let you skip their recruitment, let them die at the keep and write in epilogues that show what they do for years after the events of Awakening if they planned the entire thing out from the start?

Yes.

Collider wrote...

Where's the platonic friend option?

This gripe could be applied to so many BioWare LIs that it's hardly unique to Anders.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 12 juin 2011 - 02:46 .

[Deztyn]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

You really think they'd let you skip their recruitment, let them die at the keep and write in epilogues that show what they do for years after the events of Awakening if they planned the entire thing out from the start?

Yes.

In that case, "the Anders/Justice arc is still terribly written, just for a different set of reasons."

How is your version better?

[ipgd]

Deztyn wrote...

You really think they'd let you skip their recruitment, let them die at the keep and write in epilogues that show what they do for years after the events of Awakening if they planned the entire thing out from the start?

I find this a lot more likely than the prospect that they somehow managed to write out ten banters directly referencing the events of DA2 without having some sort of plan in mind when they did so.

[Mr.House]

How the hell is Anders now anti female?

[upsettingshorts]

Deztyn wrote...

How is your version better?

Well, if we're going to be condescending then I'd say it's because I'm better at paying attention.

But that doesn't seem very productive. 

[Collider]

This gripe could be applied to so many BioWare LIs that it's hardly unique to Anders.

Does that mean I can't find fault with it?

[upsettingshorts]

No, just means it's another example to be added to the annoying pile with the rest of them.

[SurelyForth]

Mr.House wrote...

How the hell is Anders now anti female?

My guess they think that because he doesn't flirt and talk about girls the way he does in Awakening...which is understandable if you're playing a Male!Hawke because he's pretty much exclusively Hawkesexual at that point (even if you don't romance him).
 
Re: Platonic option...

See, it's annoying but it's also realistic. He's obviously fairly lonely, so he latches onto the first scrap of kindness thrown at him by someone who knows his situation. He puts himself out there and, even if he knows it's not the best idea considering he's got himself on sex strike until Act 2, it hurts to be rejected. Really, the complaint shouldn't be "this is what bugs me about Anders" and "this is what bugs me about the set up of this conversation" since there's no let'em down easy option.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 12 juin 2011 - 03:12 .