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[Deztyn]

ipgd wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

You really think they'd let you skip their recruitment, let them die at the keep and write in epilogues that show what they do for years after the events of Awakening if they planned the entire thing out from the start?

I find this a lot more likely than the prospect that they somehow managed to write out ten banters directly referencing the events of DA2 without having some sort of plan in mind when they did so.

Justice is a fade spirit trapped in a rotting corpse. Of course many of his banters are about finding better living arrangements. Of course many of his banters are about the nature of spirits and demons. And because he's a spirit of justice of course his banters with Anders are about the injustices facing mages.

You're starting from the assumption it was planned, and claiming that the banters are deliberate references. it's just as likely the banters were written first, and only directly reference DA2 in retrospect because that's how we're filtering them now that we know what happens.

Or perhaps because the writers looked back at Awakening after deciding to use Anders.

Modifié par Deztyn, 12 juin 2011 - 03:20 .

[Deztyn]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

How is your version better?

Well, if we're going to be condescending then I'd say it's because I'm better at paying attention.

But that doesn't seem very productive. 

Translation: If it was deliberately planned than all the inconsistencies between games means it was still a badly written transition, but I don't want to admit that the writers aren't perfect, so I'll just insult your intelligence instead.

Modifié par Deztyn, 12 juin 2011 - 03:22 .

[Addai]

What is the flirt line that you can get as a female in act 1? I don't know how I managed it, but I've never ever gotten what I would consider a flirtatious exchange with Anders. Maybe it's because I've only played a sarcastic Hawke who was dubious about the Justice thing (her "er, you're glowing again" pretty much sums up my reaction to Anders in act 1- and is pretty lulzy to boot) and a diplomatic Hawke who was pro-templar so, not really in the mood for light chat after seeing Anders turn blue.

The marital unit does complain about Anders' coming on to his PC so quickly and reacting so strongly when you turn him down- especially since you can only do so in a pretty abrupt/ rude manner. I know a lot of people poo-poo that as hetero male insecurity, and I've duly ribbed him about that, too. But, it is a game and if you're already dubious about a character, it's not fun to get hit with high rivalry simply for not wanting to play hide the magic staff. No other LI reacts that way. Isabela comes on strong but more laughs it off if you reject her. All the drama mama stuff about Anders is pretty exaggerated and can be off-putting if you're not into that kind of thing.

[SurelyForth]

Addai67 wrote...

What is the flirt line that you can get as a female in act 1? I don't know how I managed it, but I've never ever gotten what I would consider a flirtatious exchange with Anders. Maybe it's because I've only played a sarcastic Hawke who was dubious about the Justice thing (her "er, you're glowing again" pretty much sums up my reaction to Anders in act 1- and is pretty lulzy to boot) and a diplomatic Hawke who was pro-templar so, not really in the mood for light chat after seeing Anders turn blue. 

You don't get any flirting from him for choosing the sarcastic or agressive lines in the second conversation after Tranquil. Only the angel wings gets to be wise, kind and beautiful. 

Modifié par SurelyForth, 12 juin 2011 - 03:27 .

[Collider]

See, it's annoying but it's also realistic. He's obviously fairly lonely, so he latches onto the first scrap of kindness thrown at him by someone who knows his situation. He puts himself out there and, even if he knows it's not the best idea considering he's got himself on sex strike until Act 2, it hurts to be rejected. Really, the complaint shouldn't be "this is what bugs me about Anders" and "this is what bugs me about the set up of this conversation" since there's no let'em down easy option.

My complaint about Anders is then how quickly he latches onto Hawke.

[Deztyn]

... I'm not sure calling a man sexy right after he explains that he's an abomination qualifies as wise, SurelyForth.

Modifié par Deztyn, 12 juin 2011 - 03:31 .

[SurelyForth]

Deztyn wrote...

... I'm not sure calling a man sexy right after he explains that he's an abomination qualifies as wise, SurelyForth.

Uh...that's a totally different conversation (and I agree). If you don't flirt with him in the conversation after he tells you about Justice, and choose the diplomatic response (which is "We can't always forsee the results of our actions, all we can do is make them with an honest heart" or something equally...pat), that's when he calls her wise.

And the latching...almost all of the companions latch pretty quickly, but Anders is definitely the most intense (understandable, considering his situation). I never realized it, but Fenris will flirt with Hawke in the first conversation you have with him after his recruitment. I don't know if he gives Rivalry for rejecting him, but it definitely can happen.

[Deztyn]

... my sense of humor fails. Especially on the internet. But also in the real world

One day I'll accept this as truth.

[FieryDove]

SurelyForth wrote...

I can only remember one conversation where he tells F!Hawke he'll break her heart, and that's the first one. He might say something like that in the first convo in Act 2, but he also calls her sweetheart if you flirt with him and says that he'd drown them both in blood to keep her safe which...sounds fairly insane committed. 

[edit] I didn't know he didn't have the line about "this will be a disaster" with M!Hawke. Since it's proceeded by super kiss and is followed with "but I can't live without it" I don't really count that as him not wanting to be with her. Quite the opposite, in fact. [/edit]

And my guess is that he doesn't tell dude Hawke he'll break his heart right off the bat because that would make the whole conversation ****** off the homophobes even more than it already does.

He never told any of my male hawkes he would break their heart which was kind of strange when he came out with "I told you I would break your heart" line. I usually have snarky hawke's with some diplomatic at least until near end of act2. So maybe I missed it playing that way.

I do think the talks with Anders are far better with male hawke's. But that's not to say he is anti-female, just that he was so pro-female in daa no matter what happened years before that in the circle with other apprentices.

Anders is an excellent and interesting character by far if you take him as a new character. If you was expecting at least some of the old Anders some (like me) were disappointed. He doesn't look, sound, act or talk anything like DAA Anders.

To thread:
Just imho and no need for anyone to get on a high horse about someone else's opinion. These forums are for all to post in as long as we follow the rules, like it or not. If some are tired of hearing *piles* of feedback/discussion/complaints don't read em.

[Ambeth]

Walrusninja wrote...

Just run through the whole series again, including Awakening which I hadn't played yet, before beginning DA2 at last. Hours of joy:) Loved Anders in Awakening, hilarious, great Mage. Was so excited to meet him in DA2.

Uh ...... hmm, his voice seems different, and he's gone all .... "soft"? Like really soft, like constant puppy eyes man 24/7, seems like he's about to cry all the time:blink:. Then, after realising several odd relationship options and avoiding the cheese, Anders flat out comes onto me?!?!? Anders, as in the guy who talked about retiring with a plump wife and some mistresses, finding a nice hotel and some girls etc. now he's coming onto my male character, on day 1?!?!??!!??!? WHAT! As if that wasn't bad enough, rejecting the frankly absolutely absurd character mangling arch reduces his opinion of you from the start, nice work Bioware.....

Look Bioware .... I understand you feel the need to be all politically correct and embrace the world around us. But .... you absolutely mangled the best character in Awakening! Why? How did you mess up so badly? Why do you feel the need to fiddle with everything? Dah, really irritating me. Totally made no sense whatsoever, both within his well established character and after meeting about 5 minutes before. Stuff like that, really takes you out of the experience, he may as well have turned into a Lobster or something it was that drastic and unusual a change of character.

Really disappointed Bioware. I'll probably get looked down on for this, stereotyped and labelled but hey. You ruined one of my favorite characters, then damaged my rating with him in-game for not being part of a minority. Good one.

In DAA, Anders does make reference to 'All I want is a pretty girl.... ... and the right to shoot lightening at fools'.  But he also likes to wear fine clothes, earrings and you give him a pretty scarf as a gift.  It may be a stereotype, but it's still there.  He may not talk about men in DAA, but he doesn't talk about men if your Hawke is female, either.


As for him hitting on Hawke so early, well, that's the result of using all Diplomatic options (I think I have gotten that from him only once in five playthroughs) and David Gaider has said it might have been a mistake having Ander initiate like that, but they didn't want all the romances to be completely player intiated (neither do I, really) so Anders has that option, under the right circumstances.

As for the Rivalry if you reject him, well that's not really a punishment, it's just a different path.  I have managed to get Anders to both 100 Rival and 100 Friend (different playthroughs of course) in Act 1 so 15 points in either direction is not going to make it impossible to peg him out in the other direction - it just might take one or two quests more.


Also, as I recall, the second 'flirt' option isn't very flirty and it does NOT intiate the actual romance - that can only happen in Act 2.  Unless I am very much mistaken, none of the possible flirts in Act 1 have any effect on the rest of the game (but the Anders heartbreak does - you won't get any more flirt options from him).

[Annarl]

Collider wrote...

See, it's annoying but it's also realistic. He's obviously fairly lonely, so he latches onto the first scrap of kindness thrown at him by someone who knows his situation. He puts himself out there and, even if he knows it's not the best idea considering he's got himself on sex strike until Act 2, it hurts to be rejected. Really, the complaint shouldn't be "this is what bugs me about Anders" and "this is what bugs me about the set up of this conversation" since there's no let'em down easy option.

My complaint about Anders is then how quickly he latches onto Hawke.

This ^ is what bothers me about Anders too.  In my opinion he screams stalker.  Especially after his "drown in a river of blood comment". (thanks to Tealsie for giving the quote) When he said that to my Hawke I stopped re-load and romance someone else.  But that's just me. To each their own.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I wish he would latch a little quicker. Three years? Seriously? Am I made of friggin stone, here?

Everybody in DA2 does this. I had that handsome prince in my bed what... four missions in? Five? Fewer if we get a feast day in there somewhere.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 14 juin 2011 - 12:00 .

[standardpack]

Does anyone know if they had Anders bi in awakening or just decided that for DA2? If so can you direct me to a topic where they admit it?

[Gamer Ftw]

Walrusninja wrote...

That's wonderful ipgd, I'm really happy for you ... but what does that have to do with this situation exactly? I'm pretty sure THAT is trolling though, ironically.
At no point did I say anything anti-gay. I was anti-Bioware rewriting characters. The fact that the 2 clash was bound to cause controversy on here, but I don't hate him because he's gay, I hate him now because he's so unlike the character he was in Awakening. I like continuity, I liked Anders in Awakening. Pretty sure he's Bi not gay anyways.

Anders NEVER said he didn't like guys ever not one time.
And of course he changed arfter merging with Justice.

[Luckywallace]

I hate the complete u-turn in Anders character as well - he was my favourite companion in DA Origins except for Morrigan and he was my least favourite character in DA2.

All that said, the most horribly jarring thing is his change in voice actor... when Greg Ellis, his original Awakening voice actor is IN DA2, acting as Cullen. The scenes where Cullen and Anders are together and even talking are just horrible to watch... why is some guy with Ander's voice speaking to Anders who is not speaking with his own voice? A mess.

[TheBlackBaron]

standardpack wrote...

Does anyone know if they had Anders bi in awakening or just decided that for DA2? If so can you direct me to a topic where they admit it?

The party line is that he was bisexual the whole time and just never mentioned it. That's the story and they're sticking to it. 

Whether or not you choose to believe that is another matter entirely. That said, there are far worse character 180s to complain about with Anders than any supposed sudden sexuality. 

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 21 juin 2011 - 02:46 .

[Blacklash93]

FieryDove wrote...

What I want to know is Justice a new kind of demon *Vengeance* or still considered a spirit now? When we are in the fade the old Justice seems to come out...I really wish they would have let us *talk* with him more it was a wasted opportunity. imho

The way I see it is that Justice is still a righteous spirit at heart, but his entire world-view has been warped through a lens of maddening injustice and cruelty. He then reacts accordingly out of Anders' frustration and hate.

Basically, Vengeance is nothing more than Justice gone berserk. It's not a transformation into a demon, but simply a spirit being misled by strong feelings and flawed judgement.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 21 juin 2011 - 09:12 .

[TanyaT]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Really? The impression that I got in DA:A was that Anders had a fair amount of repressed anger, resentment and bitterness towards the templars. He just covered it up with a lot of snark, and while he was amusing and lighthearted, he was also a bit self-serving - and when you get down to it, he was rather selfish. DA:A Justice opened his eyes to the possibility that the cause of the mages was worth championing. It was pretty clear to me from the banter between Justice and Anders and Nate in particular that Justice merging with someone was a possibility. For all the good intentions that Justice may have had in proposing it to Anders post-DA:A, the buried anger that Anders carried was enough to warp Justice into Vengeance. So now you have the merged Anders who has (evidently) killed several people, done who knows what else and is deeply tormented over what he's done and what he's become. I see DA2's Anders as being a logical progression, whereas having the same old snarky Anders who didn't seem to have a care in the world would have amounted to not letting his character change and evolve. Just because someone personally feels like a character has been "ruined" doesn't make it so.

I agree with a lot of what you say .. . he seems to have been through it , now he's very vulnerable and very needy, my male Hawke couldn't say no to him

And he still loves cats

what I didn't get was the new voice, when his old voice is still in there and ironically (deliberate Bioware?) is playing Cullen a Templar!