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Fixing Bioware's problem with "lead male henchmen"


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#101
mopotter

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leonia42 wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Kaidan is at least saved by sounding like Carth.


Really? That's actually one of my sticking points with Kaidan, and I liked Carth. Sbarge is almost 50, has a gravelly voice that makes him sound like he's in his 60s, and is playing someone in his 30s. It's just not a good fit at all to me.


Oh it doesn't fit, I just like the voice and.. that's pretty much where my love for Kaidan ends, really. Carth was my first Biowre romance so.. nostalgia.


Mine too :wub:  I played earlier BW games, but Carth's was the first game that I actually enjoyed the romance talk and teasing.  "hurt his man feelings".  I miss the humor and teasing in ME.  Even though we are saving the galexy there should be time for some teasing your LI.  

edit typo

Modifié par mopotter, 12 juin 2011 - 01:44 .


#102
mopotter

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Xewaka wrote...

mopotter wrote...
This I think is a big part of the problem.  Seems like some players want everyone to follow Shepard either blindly or in wonder of Sheaprds knowledge and skill.  Wow Shepard I never thought of it that way.    I think that's part of why Horizon VS gets so much hate.  They wanted them to say  - OH Shepard your working with the terrorist orginazation that tried to kill us more than once, but I trust everything you do so it's ok".  :innocent:  Of course that's only a part of the problem with Horizon, including how you could reply, but back on track..  
I think Zaeed might have been that guy who would disagree with Shepard but the only time we could talk to him was on his personal mission.  If he's back in ME3 we might get something more from him.
The other thing, at least with most of the LI including Kaidan and Jack, is if you don't romance them you don't get a large portion of  their backstory which does make them a more interesting character.  DA:O did this pretty well.  Even if you didn't romance Alistair, he still had enough conversation that he was interesting.


That's not even the main problem with Horizon. The problem with Horizon is that it won't let you dodge the issue, as you won't know which of the choices in the misleading, lying, cheating implement that is the paraphrases will bring up the Cerberus issue.


As I said, it wasn't the only problem, there were far to many to mention.  But it was one of them I've heard people complain about.  'Shepard should have trusted me, Shepard should have known I had a reason...."   I didn't like any of the choices I had in talking to VS.  I didn't have a problem with it coming up, becuase I was working for Cerberus and we had been fighting them throughout ME1, but I had a problem with all of the replay choices, agree they were misleading. 

#103
streamlock

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Are you talking about specifically 'human' male henchmen?

For ME1 I thought Wrex was a pretty interesting henchmen. ME2 was kinda lacking. I am ambivalent toward Jacob. Strange how one of the most meh characters had one of the most disturbing loyalty missions....

Anyway, I think Zaeed (sp?) was a pretty interesting character, to bad there was not more involvement with him.

And I'm probably alone on this, but but I thought Ordo from KOTOR was pretty kick ass. Strangely as much as Bioware played him off as the evil henchmen, I viewed him more as the Sheppard renegade option then actually evil. Didn't always do what should be done, but always did what had to be done. I don't recall how he was played off in KOTOR2, I tried to wipe that game from my memory.

#104
Collider

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I'm really more inclined to say that the hate for the male leads has more to do with certain elements of the playerbase than Bioware's writing. But you can change the writing, you can't change society.

Here are a few suggestions for Bioware
1. Players want the relationship with the male lead to matter. The problem with Kaidan was that you never really get to gain much ground with him as male Shepard. At best, you're sort of vaguely friends.
Thus, people feel like they are wasting their time. People don't like to feel like they wasted their time. With every other squad mate in ME1 you can feel their relationship with you clearly evolving.

2. People respect and admire competency. Even if you don't like the other person, you may respect them for their ability and their cause.
That is not to say at all that Kaidan is incompetent. But you are really never shown his skills and why he's useful to the team. At best, you're told that he's a decorated officer and powerful biotic. But you never see his leadership experience (No - random voice clips from Virmire don't count) and you never see his impressive biotics. Gameplay is of course not on the same level as a cutscene.

When Kaidan is revealed in the game for the first time, all he is doing is *something* in the cockpit and arguing with Joker. Joker overshadows Kaidan easily, his personality jumps off the page. You may say that this makes sense since Kaidan is supposed to be a sort of reserved character, but every good character has something that makes them stand out. In the beginning of the game, Kaidan's just some random dude, really.

When Kaidan is put into squad, he goes from random dude to random soldier. Not much of an improvement. Unlike Jenkins, you're not really given a reason to care about Kaidan. This is because you know literally nothing about Kaidan at that point. With Jenkins, on the other hand, you know about his background, his goals, and his motivations concerning the mission and why he joined the Alliance. I'm not saying that Jenkins is "better" than Kaidan, but they certainly made you care about him a lot more in the very beginning of the game.

When you meet Ashley, unlike Kaidan yet again, you get some background from her. What happened to her, her goals, and her motivations. You get a decent grip on her personality, unlike Kaidan who is still not jumping off the page.

So when DO you get a decent sense of Kaidan's background? After the Citadel quest is done and you've been made a Spectre. So that's hours into the game that he's been a squad mate and you nearly have NO idea who this person is and why you should care. Not only that, you've just jumped many ranks above Kaidan from becoming a spectre.

When Kaidan does tell you about biotic abilities, there's nothing to back them up but gameplay, which for most people is probably not very convincing. In essence the biggest problem with Kaidan's abilities are that you're told and not shown. What is he doing on the Normandy? Doing *something* to *something*.

Why on earth is this guy on the mission again? Just because Anderson says so?

If you look at the other squad mates, they all have more easily definable motivations for the mission. Everyone but Kaidan has some tie to Saren. Ashley had her squad wiped out by Saren's geth, and she wants to prove herself and prove that humanity can stand strong. Tali was hunted down by Saren and wants to prove herself to her people. Wrex has a contract to kill Saren and he wants to for once use his powerful experience as a warlord to do something good. Liara's mother was manipulated by Saren, and the whole story reveals around the protheans. Garrus investigated Saren, and wants to prove that his method of justice is what's right.

Kaidan? He just wants to do some good. That's all you learn after several hours with him. That's it.

So many people very plausibly could go through the game and feel like they're carrying Kaidan.
a. He has nothing to do with the plot.
b. You're not really given a reason to care about him.
c. You don't know what he's really adding to the team. Sure, there's Virmire - but you get to leave him behind shortly afterward. The leadership skill he shows there doesn't have time to sink in. And he's inviting you to abandon him.
On the Normandy you don't know what the heck he's doing.
d. His biotic, leadership, and tech skills are told, but not shown.

A lot of these things apply to Jacob, and in some ways, Carth. The long and short of it is that you feel like you're wasting your time with someone you don't really care about.
-
Look at the most popular male squad mates for male players. Wrex & Garrus.
1. You can be "bros" with them.
2. Your relationship with them matters. If you do Wrex's personal quest he will automatically back down on Virmire. If you persuade him to back down you can tell that he greatly respects Shepard. Going from grumpy lizard to considering Shepard an old friend is a big deal.
With Garrus you can act as a mentor to him. It doesn't result in much different in ME2, but at the time in ME1 it felt like what you said actually mattered.
3. Their skills are shown and not just told to you. When you meet Wrex (with a massive battle scar on his face) he's either intimidating C-sec officers or Fist's thugs. He isn't scared of them one iota. If you bring Wrex with you to Fist he'll just brutally shoot him down. On Virmire Wrex directly challenges you. It's easy to be convinced that Wrex is a "badass."
When you meet Garrus he can tell he really wants to take Saren down. "Stall them!"
When you meet Garrus again, he manages to shoot and kill the thug holding Michel hostage without her getting a scratch. Already then, you can call Garrus "sharpshooter renegade cop." After the same amount of time you've known Kaidan, Kaidan's just uh...someone?
-
All that said, Kaidan (of ME1) is one of my favorite characters. But I won't lie, there's definitely room for improvement. The lead males don't have to be the favorites of almost only female players who romance them if Bioware does things right.

#105
Cutlasskiwi

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AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Jayne + Mal = <3

I would totally go for that.


I don't know if the world is ready for that much awesomeness yet. Still, make it so BioWare!  

#106
Tyrannosaurus Rex

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Collider wrote...


Well thought out post. From a writing perspective the complete lack of ANY intro for Kaidan is a huge failure. Hopefully ME3 can provide give him a good and worthwhile re-introduction, but by then the damage is already done to his character.

#107
thompsonaf

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You know you want it.

#108
Jzadek72

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Kaidan seemed to calculated as the sensetive-yet-manly love interest, and felt to forced to me. All they need to do is write a character that is designed to be a character first and love interest second. There's a reason that Garrus and Tali seem to be the most popular LIs.

#109
bigSarg

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noxsachi wrote...

So...Varric? Varric was the pretty much perfect example of that in DAII, and I certainly wouldn't mind another Varric.



^this FTW

#110
rinslet luftkin

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Collider wrote...

*awesomeness inserted here*


well written

Modifié par rinslet luftkin, 12 juin 2011 - 06:14 .


#111
Skilled Seeker

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Sagacious Zu, the lead male henchman of Jade Empire was a badass. Come to think of it, all of Jade Empire's characters were equally interesting and badass. JE had the best squadmates hands down.

#112
Skilled Seeker

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Also this pimp must never be forgotten. He is my lead male henchman in ME2.

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#113
mineralica

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Skilled Seeker wrote...

Sagacious Zu, the lead male henchman of Jade Empire was a badass. Come to think of it, all of Jade Empire's characters were equally interesting and badass. JE had the best squadmates hands down.

Even "mydeadwifeanddaughtermydeadwifeanddaughtermydeadwifeanddaughter" Sky?<_<
When I latest time have seen rough but kind inside man with nice sense of humor, usefulness in battle and readiness to joke the crap out of lead female character it was a bisexual elf-assassin:P

#114
Cuddlezarro

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Trakarg wrote...

Oh my god. Give us a gay (or bi) mass effect version of alistair and I will be a happy man.


considering I cant stand alistair I would certainly not be a happy man if a carbon copy of him was the gay romance

#115
Skilled Seeker

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mineralica wrote...

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Sagacious Zu, the lead male henchman of Jade Empire was a badass. Come to think of it, all of Jade Empire's characters were equally interesting and badass. JE had the best squadmates hands down.

Even "mydeadwifeanddaughtermydeadwifeanddaughtermydeadwifeanddaughter" Sky?<_<
When I latest time have seen rough but kind inside man with nice sense of humor, usefulness in battle and readiness to joke the crap out of lead female character it was a bisexual elf-assassin:P

The chicks dig that vulnerable dashing rogue stuff. Search your feelings, you know it to be true!

#116
Spaghetti_Ninja

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I disagree that there is anything wrong with Kaidan.

#117
Ryzaki

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Collider wrote...
*snip of awesome*

 

So much truth in this post. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 juin 2011 - 09:46 .


#118
ME-ParaShep

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onelifecrisis wrote...

He's already there. He's called Garrus.


However Garrus, even though an old buddy, was occupied with calibrations instead of chatting it up with an old friend. Jacob made it seem that he (Jacob) was the close friend. If any "lead male henchman" were to be mentioned, at least have them participate in more social and practical causes.

#119
ThatDancingTurian

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I agree with just about everything you wrote about Kaidan, Collider. The only difference is, I don't like him in spite of all that stuff.

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Sagacious Zu, the lead male henchman of Jade Empire was a badass. Come to think of it, all of Jade Empire's characters were equally interesting and badass. JE had the best squadmates hands down.

Pretty sure Sky was the 'Lead Male Henchman', he just didn't feel like it since he had no connection to the plot. I still liked Sky better than Kaidan and Jacob though, maybe because he had somewhat of a sense of humor.

#120
Skilled Seeker

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Aris Ravenstar wrote...

I agree with just about everything you wrote about Kaidan, Collider. The only difference is, I don't like him in spite of all that stuff.

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Sagacious Zu, the lead male henchman of Jade Empire was a badass. Come to think of it, all of Jade Empire's characters were equally interesting and badass. JE had the best squadmates hands down.

Pretty sure Sky was the 'Lead Male Henchman', he just didn't feel like it since he had no connection to the plot. I still liked Sky better than Kaidan and Jacob though, maybe because he had somewhat of a sense of humor.

Nope, just because he happens to be the LI, doesn't make him the lead male. As you said Sagacious Zu is far more intertwined with the plot and he's the 2nd companion you meet. Sky is a side character.

Modifié par Skilled Seeker, 13 juin 2011 - 12:22 .


#121
Dasher1010

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SteelRaptor wrote...

Bogsnot1 wrote...

Bring back Minsc.

"Biotics are impressive, but now Minsc leads. Guns for everyone!"


Bog, I agree wholeheartedly.

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You have no idea how much I support this. i like Kaiden (not as much as Ash) but Jacob was not only boring but useless in combat.

#122
ThatDancingTurian

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Skilled Seeker wrote...

Nope, just because he happens to be the LI, doesn't make him the lead male. As you said Sagacious Zu is far more intertwined with the plot and he's the 2nd companion you meet. Sky is a side character.

I wouldn't consider Zu to be one either though, considering what happens with him.

If anything I'd say Jade Empire didn't really have a 'lead male'. Silk Fox was more of a 'lead' than either of the boys.

#123
Cornelius119

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MillKill wrote...

The most well-received lead male henchman in a bioware game was Varric. He was a lovable wisecracking dwarf. In ME, the closest we have to dwarves are volus. Therefore, we need a lovable wisecracking volus.



It would be soooooo aggravating to hear that breathing apparatus they use every time he would crack a joke

#124
Oblivious

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Collider wrote...
*post of awesomeness contained within*

This and a million times this. Unfortunately this time that post only extends to Kaidan since Carth and Sky both had extremely small fan bases. I'd say the only popular male lead Bioware has ever done were Alistair and Varric. Like them or hate them they have the single largest fanbases in their respective games.

Alistair achieved everything you posted Collider with flying marks. The warden had the option of talking to Alistair over everything: sex, the past, the future, family, dreams, alcohol, etc. And his humor-laced relaxed manner just made it seem as if he and my warden were truly old frat buddies.

Varric, while not achieving much in the strong points Collider posted was still popular, though I have a feeling it was due more to the weakness each character had in the "plot" rather than his own roguish charms.

If Bioware can achieve the points Collider posted on how to make a proper male character and injected him with some Indiana Jones and Han Solo roguish charm then they'd get a hit. For example: www.youtube.com/watch I can honestly say I ended up caring far more for that CGI space cowboy than I had for any male character Bioware had created... well except maybe Alistair... maybe

#125
Seboist

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Skilled Seeker wrote...

Also this pimp must never be forgotten. He is my lead male henchman in ME2.

Image IPB


He's my lead male henchman too! It's too bad he isn't a LI for femshep. <3:(