39 réponses à ce sujet

[Zemiious]

Since my last topic derailed into a stupidity festival, i'm going to try and control the flow of the dialogue better and keep my arguments civil. 

Following my last topic about why Casual gamers are a plague to the gaming industry. I will begin my argument by answering this quote.

What's your definition of a game? 

Merriam-Webster defines: 
A game is a form of play, esp. a competitive one played according to rules and decided by skill, strength, or luck. 


It's a form of PLAY. You know... play? When we have fun? 

A game is a game. Your attempts to draw a line of what's a "real" game and what's not is just elitist talk. 


Define game to set the debate.

When I say "real" game, I mean one of SUBSTANCE. one that is memorable. Video games are beyond just time wasters. yes they can do that still, and hell, they still do, but they arent just that anymore. Video games should strive to impact the player. 

How can we do this? By disregarding the "casual player" status quo. When we try to acknowledge the mainstream we've throwed away all pretense of artists intergrity. Creation is not about pleasing the status quo. There is much more than button smashing to make coins for your virtual little closet.


How can you all play this game and disagree? If Mass effect decided to skimp on the intergrity, we wouldn't have fully fleshed out characters.  What about that is "fun"? Or good storyline, fun? Still about having fun is it? Don't BS yourself. These games were never JUST about you wasting your time.

Modifié par Zemiious, 12 juin 2011 - 03:44 .

[JeffZero]

But they were always about making money.

[Rake21]

Difficult games are a blast... to certain people. I love the Ninja Gaiden series and those games are hard as hell. My brother, on the other hand, hates them with an impressive passion.

It's a taste thing. It always will be.

[Zemiious]

JeffZero wrote...

But they were always about making money.

I understand. Making money is important but this can be done by just appealing to fans. What is with this.. illusion of trying to appease everyone? SO MORONIC. you end up with disastors like DA2. How many artists do you know (other than the god awful mainstream ones) that try to appeal to fans of OTHER genres? 

None! Thats ****ing stupid!

[Faust1979]

31 been playing since the Atari 2600/matell intelivision I hate it when games get to hard I always play all my games on casual if it gives me the choice

[javierabegazo]

This topic will get locked just as fast if it turns into a "Only teh reel Hardcore Gamers deserve to play Games!" ****** fest. You're not the only consumer in the world and video games fall under consumer products. I'll let this run for a few hours and see where it goes. Keep it respectful, inline with the Site Rules, and maybe you'll surprise me.

[neubourn]

I stopped reading at "control the flow of dialogue."

Ok, well maybe i read a bit more. Casual Gamers are vital to the gaming industry, it drives sales which in turn generates profits for developers, which in turn leads to bigger and (mostly) better games.
So, get used to them, every developer tries to cater to as large a portion of the gaming population as possible, its good business.

[VoidCabbage]

Zemiious wrote...
Since my last topic derailed into a stupidity festival, i'm going to try and control the flow of the dialogue better and keep my arguments civil. 

Following my last topic about why Casual gamers are a plague to the gaming industry. I will begin my argument by answering this quote.

Just wanted to point out that bit of crazy.

Modifié par VoidCabbage, 12 juin 2011 - 03:51 .

[Shishmish]

Hmm, maybe I can even elaborate a little. Im playing video games for 15 years now and I think I can argue that a game like Baldurs Gate 2 where you had long ass descriptions of spells and complexity wouldnt really work out that well today. Before I say anything else, I hold BG2 in highest regard and I consider it one of the best RPGs ever. Dragon Age Origins, a modern version of BG as they call it is more concerned about action rather than theorycrafting and this is why:

Gaming is more commercial nowdays, publishers sell many times a number of copies than back in the day. Not to mention modern games have a lot bigger expenses, like the all present voice acting, something older games had little or none of.

This is not to say nowdays games are easy, I played The Witcher 2 on Hard difficulty and it cost me a great deal of stress and nerves. Have you played this game?

There is something for everyone in the modern age.

[Zemiious]

Rake21 wrote...

Difficult games are a blast... to certain people. I love the Ninja Gaiden series and those games are hard as hell. My brother, on the other hand, hates them with an impressive passion.

It's a taste thing. It always will be.

I'm not even talking about the difficulty. Though I do want a game in the middle of Casual and hardcore. I'm talking more about this whole streamline bullcrap, hold our hands, follow the dotted line crap. it's so stupid. Its like they WANT me to turn off their games after 15mins.

If anyone has played the fable series they know exactly what I mean. These developers are trying to do the impossible. Appeal to people who dont like the fundamentals of your game to begin with? what kind of backwards loopy crap is that?


Leave casual gamers with the Nintendo Wii. Stop trying the impossible.

[KainrycKarr]

There is nothing civil about your posts.

[Gavinthelocust]

There will never be only hardcore gamers, video gaming has grown from it's roots as something that is only played by "nerds" into a mainstream media. It's like movies, most people are casual movie watchers and that's the evolution gaming will go through. The hardcore games may not get as much spotlight but they'll still be around in the same quantity it is now. All mediums try to expand to appeal to everyone, that way it won't be such an exclusive experience. It's better to suck it up than fight it, because you will never defeat it. Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated.

[Rake21]

Shishmish wrote...


This is not to say nowdays games are easy, I played The Witcher 2 on Hard difficulty and it cost me a great deal of stress and nerves. Have you played this game?

It's fun as hell, but built for people who can take the frustration.

[Faust1979]

Zemiious wrote...

Rake21 wrote...

Difficult games are a blast... to certain people. I love the Ninja Gaiden series and those games are hard as hell. My brother, on the other hand, hates them with an impressive passion.

It's a taste thing. It always will be.

I'm not even talking about the difficulty. Though I do want a game in the middle of Casual and hardcore. I'm talking more about this whole streamline bullcrap, hold our hands, follow the dotted line crap. it's so stupid. Its like they WANT me to turn off their games after 15mins.

If anyone has played the fable series they know exactly what I mean. These developers are trying to do the impossible. Appeal to people who dont like the fundamentals of your game to begin with? what kind of backwards loopy crap is that?


Leave casual gamers with the Nintendo Wii. Stop trying the impossible.

well I can say that I got quite bored wandering around Morrowind getting lost looking for the entrances starts to get boring after awhile. 

[neubourn]

Zemiious wrote...

Rake21 wrote...

Difficult games are a blast... to certain people. I love the Ninja Gaiden series and those games are hard as hell. My brother, on the other hand, hates them with an impressive passion.

It's a taste thing. It always will be.

I'm not even talking about the difficulty. Though I do want a game in the middle of Casual and hardcore. I'm talking more about this whole streamline bullcrap, hold our hands, follow the dotted line crap. it's so stupid. Its like they WANT me to turn off their games after 15mins.

If anyone has played the fable series they know exactly what I mean. These developers are trying to do the impossible. Appeal to people who dont like the fundamentals of your game to begin with? what kind of backwards loopy crap is that?


Leave casual gamers with the Nintendo Wii. Stop trying the impossible.

You must be new to gaming, here lemme help you out:

Virtually every game starts out with a tutorial level, enemies are easier, and they use this level to explain the game dynamics. Developers understand that not everyone is immediately aware of all of their game mechanics, so they use this as an opportuniy to educate the players on what to do and how to do it, and after a level or two, they leave it in the gamers hands to progress.

I mean seriously, of all the things to complain about. 

[AlanC9]

Zemiious wrote...

Since my last topic derailed into a stupidity festival

Derailed?

[Shishmish]

Rake21 wrote...
It's fun as hell, but built for people who can take the frustration.

Well yes, but if you dont want it you have the easy difficulty. Like I said, something for everyone.

[T5555]

neubourn wrote...

I stopped reading at "control the flow of dialogue."

Ok, well maybe i read a bit more. Casual Gamers are vital to the gaming industry, it drives sales which in turn generates profits for developers, which in turn leads to bigger and (mostly) better games.
So, get used to them, every developer tries to cater to as large a portion of the gaming population as possible, its good business.

I like your posts.

[hex23]

Zemiious wrote...

I understand. Making money is important but this can be done by just appealing to fans. What is with this.. illusion of trying to appease everyone? SO MORONIC. you end up with disastors like DA2. How many artists do you know (other than the god awful mainstream ones) that try to appeal to fans of OTHER genres? 

None! Thats ****ing stupid!

DA2 is only a disaster to people like you. Who are the vocal minority.

Out in the real world it only averaged 7% lower than "DA: O" on Metacritic and sold better than that game, too.

This reminds me of when "ME2" came out, and people swore it would be critically panned, and that it would flop because it didn't fit in with their little personal opinion of how the game should've been made. And we seen how that situation turned out....

[neubourn]

T5555 wrote...

neubourn wrote...

I stopped reading at "control the flow of dialogue."

Ok, well maybe i read a bit more. Casual Gamers are vital to the gaming industry, it drives sales which in turn generates profits for developers, which in turn leads to bigger and (mostly) better games.
So, get used to them, every developer tries to cater to as large a portion of the gaming population as possible, its good business.

I like your posts.

must be my avatar of awesomeness.

[Walker White]

The problem is that "casual gamer" is a undefined concept. Even the industry knows this.

There is a big difference between grandma playing bridge online and a lapsed-hardcore gamer who now has a family and work that prevent him/her from putting in the amount of time that he/she used to put into games.

A lot of what we call "casual gaming" is really about reducing the minimal playable unit. What is the least amount of free time that you can have available to make it worth to turn on the console/PC? Can you play a half hour and have fun? Or do you need to play over an hour? If it is the latter, then you are going to have a much smaller market than the former.

But that does not mean that this half hour or hour cannot be hard core. It just means that it has to be self-contained and maximize the fun. As you get older (as I and my friends have found) you become extremely allergic to grind.

[Akizora]

The thing is, no consumer base is more or less deserving than any other as long as they have the money to pay for the product. It is only realistic a company will want to aim their product towards as many consumers as possible since without sales they will not be able to produce any future products. But if you look towards Bioware, they still produce roleplaying games even in this day and age when all they would need to do is slap a CoD sticker onto something and it would sell 20 million copies.

There are complaints that Mass Effect 3 is "turning into a shooter", but honestly - the first was a very badly done shooter. The second was improved but flawed and now the third is actually turning the shooter gameplay from cringeworthy into a working, functional and structured mechanic. What is there to complain about? That the shooter mechanic is no longer flawed? 

It is possible to maintain RPG-elements and still have a shooter in combat and it is possible to still make the game difficult for yourself by having the highest difficulty setting and turning off tool tips. Games do evolve and sometimes maybe not in the direction we desire, this was the case for me with FF13. How did I respond to it? I sold FF13, delivered a bad metacritic score and let them know my dissatisfaction with my product. I did not however claim that I was somehow more deserving of the product than others, I'm not - but the only way to voice dissatisfaction and get something to change is to not give money to the company.

[Zemiious]

javierabegazo wrote...

This topic will get locked just as fast if it turns into a "Only teh reel Hardcore Gamers deserve to play Games!" ****** fest. You're not the only consumer in the world and video games fall under consumer products. I'll let this run for a few hours and see where it goes. Keep it respectful, inline with the Site Rules, and maybe you'll surprise me.

My argument was never ONLY "HARDCORE GAMERS deserve to play games!"(though imo, thats how it should be) You insult my well thought out rant by reducing it to a single line that screams "troll bait!". The other members made my argument sound as such, but contrary to popular belief my position had real points. It is the other members who attacked me first with their disrespectful nonsense.

I' am not the only consumer in the world of video games but I am the only one that should matter. developers should focus on appealing to, get this, gamers!


Casual gamers are not gamers they are people who got play their brothers xbox360's or their grandpapa got swindled into purchasing the wrong console. What is so elitest about acknowleding the differences between gamers and.. nonhabitual gamers?

[Shishmish]

Well, I know what I wrote, but there may be something in the OPs post. I cannot help but remember TES:Oblivion and how ****ty it turned out to be because they wanted to attract casual players, effectively ruining the franchise for many veterans, and I hold Daggerfall and Morrowind in high regard. That game had so much hype and delivered so little, and while many mechanics like RAI or leveling are not fault of the casual audience, many things were dumbed down for the sake of casual players.

[Zemiious]

You guys are going have to be patient. answering all posts as soon as I can. So sorry no bloody spellchecking/grammar. suck on it.

Shishmish wrote...

Hmm, maybe I can even elaborate a little. Im playing video games for 15 years now and I think I can argue that a game like Baldurs Gate 2 where you had long ass descriptions of spells and complexity wouldnt really work out that well today. Before I say anything else, I hold BG2 in highest regard and I consider it one of the best RPGs ever. Dragon Age Origins, a modern version of BG as they call it is more concerned about action rather than theorycrafting and this is why:

Gaming is more commercial nowdays, publishers sell many times a number of copies than back in the day. Not to mention modern games have a lot bigger expenses, like the all present voice acting, something older games had little or none of.

This is not to say nowdays games are easy, I played The Witcher 2 on Hard difficulty and it cost me a great deal of stress and nerves. Have you played this game?

There is something for everyone in the modern age.

Baldurs Gate 2 is the epitome of a real game. depth, difficulty, impact, replayability. What is your complaint, people didn't want to read? HA. These people are cancers.


Dragon age origins also great game. I have no complaints about it.


DA2. Ugh. another story.



Haven't played Witcher 2, heard its mega-ape**** hard but my complaint isnt solely on the difficulty. I want substance in my games, you don't get this by conforming. Witcher 1 sucked btw.