287 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

You say that like the romances period aren't pandering or the obscene references to nonsensical  things from the first game like refund guy or Blasto isn't pandering.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 juin 2011 - 07:19 .

[Whatever42]

ReconTeam wrote...

Montezuma IV wrote...
Such a stupid thing to say.....I don't even know how to respond. It's more then a number it's the passing of time. Time brings change and a more civilized standard of acceptance. You want to argue with that fact then you are arguing with the history of mankind.

And it's not pandering. It's just a ****ing romance. One easy passable. There really should be no reason to not at least accept homosexual romances unless you dislike homosexuals period.

The history of mankind? Civilized standards of acceptance? The history of mankind is about war, power, violence, greed, and people looking out for their own interests. Adding gay romances to pander to an audience because today's society has these bass-ackwards standards of "political correctness" isn't some historical landmark. And it is just that, pandering. It is all development time and resources that could be used on greater things.

I agree that its fanservice. However, since most players are male, femsheps are fanservice. Tali romances are fanservice. Bioware does fanservice. Beyond a few dialogue trees, I don't know if its a huge waste of development time.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Siansonea II wrote...
Well, when BioWare announces Gay Kaidan, your ire will at least seem proportionate. But such vitriol over mere speculation? Unwarranted, and overly strenuous. I think you're pretty much on record with this exact diatribe, so, why do you feel so compelled to repeat it every time the champagne bottles are uncorked by those who are happy at this inclusion (a group not solely comprised of LGBT individuals, I might add)?

Virtrol? Please. It was you "accepting" individuals who started bashing some poster because he has strong religious beliefs. God forbid anybody have a different opinion from you paragons of humanity...

Yes, I've restated my views often, because I expect the worst case scenario. I happen to find your "celebration" of this nonsense is just as frusterating as you must find my "hateful/homophobic/whatever" rants. If you want to pat each other on the back all day, do in your group. I don't care that you have straight supporters. Whatever helps them feel good about themselves. You argued for your own interests in demanding this content for the past however-many years. I'll look out for my own interests by opposing it and wanting that development time used on something else.

[shepskisaac]

ReconTeam wrote...
 I'll look out for my own interests by opposing it and wanting that development time used on something else.

So what's gonna be next after s/s romances? Crusade to get rid of FemShep? classes you don't use? Ahh you'll have your hands full of work!

[Inquisitor Recon]

KawaiiKatie wrote...
It's not an "absurd" demand to ask for equal treatment and representation. Mass Effect's previous stance on same-sex pairings has boardered on lesbian exploitation, where a race of ultra-hot-stripper-lesbians was fine, but homosexual males was not. To ask for equality is not an absurd demand.

And yes, some of us would like to see old characters "retconned" into bisexuality. Though many of us would not see it as a retcon, I understand why you feel Kaidan's bisexuality would qualify. I take issue, however, with the assertion that this is an "absurd demand."

Yes, I would like to see bisexual Kaidan. But I'm not demanding it. I would be fine if he remained restricted to female Shepard. So long as male homosexuality is included in Mass Effect 3, I will be satisfied, and I don't feel that it is "absurd" to ask for it.

Equal treatment and representation? Should the Normandy have a quota now? If you want "representation" based on numbers, why are you expecting gay LIs unless there happen to be over a dozen total in ME3?

I consider it to be an absurd demand, moreso when some expect pre-existing characters changed around to suit this demand. What about all of the people who liked these characters as they are? Are their opinions invalid here?

[Inquisitor Recon]

IsaacShep wrote...
So what's gonna be next after s/s romances? Crusade to get rid of FemShep? classes you don't use? Ahh you'll have your hands full of work!

Expect a rather large amount of female players play the series, and I enjoy playing as the different classes. It is simply not comparable.

[Ryzaki]

Actually FemShep is only 20% of Shepards.  If you consider that she has about half the amount of romances that becomes quite wasteful indeed. Especially with an LI like Jacob who very few femsheps would've romanced. *nods* Wasteful indeed. 

And...the least used class is engineer while Soldier is used about 2x as many as the rest of the other classes put together I believe?  Edit: Nope it's used more than every other class combined. 

Oh yeah and half of the players didn't finish ME2. ...And only half imported a game! 

Hey engineer players! Since you're the minority BW shouldn't waste resources balancing out your playstyles!  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 juin 2011 - 07:35 .

[shepskisaac]

ReconTeam wrote...
What about all of the people who liked these characters as they are? Are their opinions invalid here?

Since you liked them purely on a friendship level that means any change or revelation in their sexual sphere doesn't affect you. If some real-life female friend of yours you're not romantically involved with tells you she's bi/lesbian, that doesn't change your friendship with her or what you like her for as a friend in a bit. Very simple

ReconTeam wrote...
Expect a rather large amount of female players play the series, and I enjoy playing as the different classes. It is simply not comparable.

But you don't play as FemShep? So it's not in your interest to have FemShep content developed for the game

Modifié par IsaacShep, 12 juin 2011 - 07:36 .

[Siansonea]

ReconTeam wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
Well, when BioWare announces Gay Kaidan, your ire will at least seem proportionate. But such vitriol over mere speculation? Unwarranted, and overly strenuous. I think you're pretty much on record with this exact diatribe, so, why do you feel so compelled to repeat it every time the champagne bottles are uncorked by those who are happy at this inclusion (a group not solely comprised of LGBT individuals, I might add)?

Virtrol? Please. It was you "accepting" individuals who started bashing some poster because he has strong religious beliefs. God forbid anybody have a different opinion from you paragons of humanity...

Yes, I've restated my views often, because I expect the worst case scenario. I happen to find your "celebration" of this nonsense is just as frusterating as you must find my "hateful/homophobic/whatever" rants. If you want to pat each other on the back all day, do in your group. I don't care that you have straight supporters. Whatever helps them feel good about themselves. You argued for your own interests in demanding this content for the past however-many years. I'll look out for my own interests by opposing it and wanting that development time used on something else.

You define your interest by depriving others of optional content, I define mine by allowing optional content for whoever wants it, without being compulsory for those who don't. I think my viewpoint is more reasonable than yours. But you think dictating the lives of others because of your own religious beliefs is perfectly reasonable, but that is something I disagree with on a very basic level. You believing in whichever deity your local population believes in does not seem a legitimate reason to exclude options for other players. I'm against taking crayons out of the box just because some people think Red Is Wrong, or Blue is Bad. Let everyone have their crayons, and you can leave Red and Blue in the box. Seems reasonable to me, but I am not diminished by optional content in the game, no matter how ridiculous I think it is.

Personally, I think having sex with aliens is pretty darned gross. So that whole Tali/Garrus/Thane business grosses me the eff out. But hey, I don't have to romance those characters. I can even chat them up in a strictly platonic way when they're not calibrating/meditating/cleaning engines, etc. Some people like that xenophilia thing. It's WIDELY accepted around here even though it makes ZERO sense from a practical standpoint. I do not go into every pro-Garrus, pro-Tali and pro-Thane thread and poop on their fun just because I think non-asari alien relationships are weird. I just play my Shepards with human and asari LIs. No big whoop-de-doo at all.

[Pinkflu]

ReconTeam wrote...
Amazing the hoops some of you jump through to justify you want to retcon pre-existing characters Yes, retconned. This isn't real life or some lousy drama show on TV, these are characters written by Bioware. Everything in ME1 and ME2 has suggested they're straight. The math suggests they're straight. The only people proposing they aren't straight are those who have pushed for the addition of these romances out of personal interests. You're damned right I would be pissed if Bioware just decides these characters are suddenly bisexual in order to please a handful of players who feel they are entitled to sleep with anything they want.

I wasn't arguing for retconning any of the characters, if you'd care to go back and re-read my post. I was challenging the faulty reasoning behind the anti-retcon argument. My last sentence you could even take to be somewhat in support of your own argument. And nothing in either of the first two games made explicit that any of the characters were straight (one exception springs to mind; I believe Jack said she doesn't swing that way). It's just the default assumption in our culture that unless someone says otherwise, they're straight. You could say, however, that it is a good bet, statistically-speaking.

Lets  put all of these feel-good buzzwords and "celebrate diversity" bumper-sticker nonsense aside for a second. Bioware should not try to appeal to every small group that wants something tailored to their tastes. This isn't a game about romances. It's a sci-fi RPG, not a damned dating simulator despite what some individuals here treat it as. Going out to appeal to gays speficially is as foolish as going out of the way to appeal to transvestites or people of certain ethnic groups.

I see no problem with either of these groups seeing some inclusion in a game, although I will say that unlike ethnicity and sexuality, the way a person dresses is a choice.

If those indivudals aren't going to buy the game as is, unless they get something specifically tailored to whatever they want to sleep with, that is too damned bad. It isn't Bioware's problem. They should design a game for a majority of players and not pander to the gay communit. Not everybody gets exactly what they want in game, why should they? Remember, this is all time and effort that can be used to create a greater experience.

You are making the common anti-homosexual mistake of assuming that our concerns center around sexual issues. I am not looking for, 'something specifically tailored to whatever [I] want to sleep with', what I want is to not see my identity, my very existence, ignored and marginalised, yet again.

'Sacrifice the wants of the few for the greater good' is a great mantra, so long as you're not one of the few, hm? I should state here that I am assuming that you are straight. If so, the vast, overwhelming majority of the previous games, of all games, of all films and TV and music and culture in general is catered specifically toward you.

I don't expect you to understand why this is important to me, and to people like me.

A game that will be remembered. Remebered for being an epic title, not for some Bioware writers and devs parading around how "accepting" they are. That's not what the typical gamer cares about, that's not what consumer base cares about. That's what rags like the Escapist and things totally unrelated to gaming write about in order to appear sophisticated.

That may be your take. But what I'll remember about ME wasn't how pretty the pixels were or how fun it was shooting aliens. I could get that elsewhere. What I'll remember was the awesome story, and that the development team had the courage and integrity to acknowledge that there are different identities, and different loves. And they acknowledged me when they acknowledged that. Again, I can't expect you to understand.

Those arrogant individuals here who get up on their high horse and whine about "homophobia" and pat each other on the back need to realize that not everybody thinks like them. They have a right to their opinions, but others aren't required to be supportive and approving of homosexuality. Not everybody buys into today's insane level of political correctness where companies are supposed to cave into absurd demands like these.

I recognise this. I don't ask that you be 'supporting and approving' of me. But in light of the fact that nobody's arguing for erasing heterosexual people from the game and replacing them with a cast of gay people, your defensiveness is... Concerning. I'm sure you can understand - if people have been 'whining' about homophobia - why they may be doing so.

[Abiogenist]

ReconTeam wrote...

Virtrol? Please. It was you "accepting" individuals who started bashing some poster because he has strong religious beliefs. God forbid anybody have a different opinion from you paragons of humanity...

He was asking for it: anyone calling gays as "unnatural" deserves some form of counter-bashing, in one way or another.

[Sparten110]

...damn I came to the last page to make a joke about Joker and how romancing him isn't the best of ideas consider his brittle bones and everything. But we have ourselves a bit of a flame war.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Montezuma IV wrote...
First off...we've seen that man's post...he obviously gets a kick out of starting ****. Let's not pretend. And let's not even talk about "making people feel better for themselves" when you obviously lash out against gays on a website as a way of feeling better.

So is he automatically a troll because his English skills are somewhat lacking, or because his opinion differs from the majority? You honestly don't find anything hypocrticial about claiming his is trolling when so many of your group have rather flamboyant signatures, avatars, etc.? When you post "yay, look at us" topics like this? I "obviously lash out agaisnt gays"? Honestly, sleep with whatever the hell you want, just don't tell me about it, and don't try to sidetrack developers into doing stuff like this. These constant ridiculous displays on these forum simply ****** me off. So I'll rant about it, because I'm stubborn and annoying like that.

[KawaiiKatie]

ReconTeam wrote...

KawaiiKatie wrote...
It's not an "absurd" demand to ask for equal treatment and representation. Mass Effect's previous stance on same-sex pairings has boardered on lesbian exploitation, where a race of ultra-hot-stripper-lesbians was fine, but homosexual males was not. To ask for equality is not an absurd demand.

And yes, some of us would like to see old characters "retconned" into bisexuality. Though many of us would not see it as a retcon, I understand why you feel Kaidan's bisexuality would qualify. I take issue, however, with the assertion that this is an "absurd demand."

Yes, I would like to see bisexual Kaidan. But I'm not demanding it. I would be fine if he remained restricted to female Shepard. So long as male homosexuality is included in Mass Effect 3, I will be satisfied, and I don't feel that it is "absurd" to ask for it.

Equal treatment and representation? Should the Normandy have a quota now? If you want "representation" based on numbers, why are you expecting gay LIs unless there happen to be over a dozen total in ME3?

I consider it to be an absurd demand, moreso when some expect pre-existing characters changed around to suit this demand. What about all of the people who liked these characters as they are? Are their opinions invalid here?

Yes, I'm asking for equal representation when female Shepard is allowed to be gay, but male Shepard cannot. There can certainally be more straight, lesbain, or bisexual females than gay or bisexual males aboard the Normandy, but until Mass Effect 3, gay male Shepard has not had a single chance to express his sexuality the way gay female Shepard has been with Liara, Kelly, and half a dozen assorted Asari.

I do not consider it an "absurd" demand to ask for equal treatment. If female Shepard can be openly gay, male Shepard should have the option to be openly gay. Bioware agrees, and I couldn't be happier.

No one here has demanded a "change" in any existing characters. Yes, we have girlishly sighed and wistfully imaged how fun it would be if Kaidan at last returned gay male Shepard's affections, but no one here has demanded it. We maintain our view that it would not be a "retcon" for Kaidan or any other character to become bisexual, but this is a conceit I will grant you, because I can honestly understand why you would feel that way. I do not agree with your side, but I understand it.

I do, however, continue to disagree that we who favour bisexual Kaidan are making "absurd demands." We aren't demanding anything except some sort of male homosexuality in ME3. Yes, we would be delighted with bisexual Kaidan, but we aren't demanding it. You have every right to hope for Kaidan to remain restricted to females, and we have every right to hope that he'll become available to males. Neither of us, however, have the right to demand either one.

[Pax of Doom]

ReconTeam wrote...

The history of mankind? Civilized standards of acceptance? The history of mankind is about war, power, violence, greed, and people looking out for their own interests. Adding gay romances to pander to an audience because today's society has these bass-ackwards standards of "political correctness" isn't some historical landmark. And it is just that, pandering. It is all development time and resources that could be used on greater things.

Exactly.  Using the computing power needed to develop entertainment should be put towards curing cancer or designing the next space shuttle.  <_<

If they are pandering, as you say, it's probably with a good reason.  That good reason is the bottom line.  Obviously there is a very vocal group interested in seeing these relationships in the game.  Whether that vocal group is large or small is irrelevant - the most vocal get heard.  Since they're the ones giving feedback while everyone else is quiet, they may be seen as having a larger impact on sales.  If a small group threatens to boycott due to one issue, and no one steps up to take the opposing side, the group being boycotted will cave into demands out of fear of lost sales. 

On the one hand, these groups tend to use the adage of "for every one of us speaking, there are 10 who are silently agreeing".  On the other, this can backfire when they do NOT represent the silent ones, and you have tyrrany of the minority.  They are heard, and their wants are addressed, and that's what it comes down to.

It's not like the LGBT community will be out in droves buying the game
where they did not before, or trumpeting BW as "one of us".  The impact
will be nothing more than Faux News causing ME1 to be banned or lose
sales due to their sex scene "news" report - that is to say, little to
no impact.  Not to mention that blindly supporting ANYTHING - presidential candidate, clothing line, restaurant, video game - because it somehow shares a trait that you also have, is stupid beyond words.

I don't see anything about this being PC, or having a few loudmouths dictating the story.  BW wants feedback, and they received it and are addressing it. 

[Abiogenist]

ReconTeam wrote...

So I'll rant about it, because I'm stubborn and annoying like that.

Thank you for thyself's self-evaluation.

Now, can we ignore this fellow and talk about MShep gettin' some Kaidan-lovin'?

[shepskisaac]

Abiogenist wrote...
Now, can we ignore this fellow and talk about MShep gettin' some Kaidan-lovin'?

Yes please <3 We've been waiting for our Kaidan so long!

[Whatever42]

Recon, dude, he was comparing homosexuality to murder and paedophilia. And he was on a new account. He was trollin.

I do understand that you're annoyed about fan-service (and I often argue against it myself) but Bioware jumped that shark a while ago before ME2 was even released. Besides, while all the petitioning can get annoying, it really doesn't take that much developer resources to add a few dialogue trees.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 12 juin 2011 - 07:46 .

[Ryzaki]

KawaiiKatie wrote...
I do, however, continue to disagree that we who favour bisexual Kaidan are making "absurd demands." We aren't demanding anything except some sort of male homosexuality in ME3. Yes, we would be delighted with bisexual Kaidan, but we aren't demanding it. You have every right to hope for Kaidan to remain restricted to females, and we have every right to hope that he'll become available to males. Neither of us, however, have the right to demand either one.

This.

And for the record Recon I'm actually hoping all the LIs remain restricted to their current genders. That by no means says I'm demanding anything.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Siansonea II wrote...
You define your interest by depriving others of optional content, I define mine by allowing optional content for whoever wants it, without being compulsory for those who don't. I think my viewpoint is more reasonable than yours. But you think dictating the lives of others because of your own religious beliefs is perfectly reasonable, but that is something I disagree with on a very basic level. You believing in whichever deity your local population believes in does not seem a legitimate reason to exclude options for other players. I'm against taking crayons out of the box just because some people think Red Is Wrong, or Blue is Bad. Let everyone have their crayons, and you can leave Red and Blue in the box. Seems reasonable to me, but I am not diminished by optional content in the game, no matter how ridiculous I think it is.

Personally, I think having sex with aliens is pretty darned gross. So that whole Tali/Garrus/Thane business grosses me the eff out. But hey, I don't have to romance those characters. I can even chat them up in a strictly platonic way when they're not calibrating/meditating/cleaning engines, etc. Some people like that xenophilia thing. It's WIDELY accepted around here even though it makes ZERO sense from a practical standpoint. I do not go into every pro-Garrus, pro-Tali and pro-Thane thread and poop on their fun just because I think non-asari alien relationships are weird. I just play my Shepards with human and asari LIs. No big whoop-de-doo at all.

Since several of you have moved onto these ridiculous "you must want FemShep removed" arguments (despite the fact that you probably represent a smaller playerbase than FemShep engineers) lets apply thas type of thinking here. Surely you support "optional content for whoever wants it" surely you must support every outlandish demand individuals on these forums make. Hope you're a-okay with Bioware spending a ton of effort doing some whole Tali-wedding scenario, because people want it, and it would be optional. How about devoting half the game to find a cure for Thane? How are we ever going to get time to stop the reapers?

Animations, dialouge, writing, it all takes work. Work that could be better spent elsewhere in this case. Now unpredictably, I think mine is the reasonable viewpoint and yours is anything but. You aren't trying to keep crayons in a box, you're trying to stuff new crayons in a box because you like the color and dammit, so should everybody else.

You're entitled to your views on xenophila, just as I'm entitled to mine on homosexuality. Yet the market should be the driving factor here, and Captain James T. Kirk was quite an influence.

[KawaiiKatie]

Sparten110 wrote...

...damn I came to the last page to make a joke about Joker and how romancing him isn't the best of ideas consider his brittle bones and everything. But we have ourselves a bit of a flame war.

Oh god, I don't even care how fragile he is! I will take it soft and slow and and and-

SOMETIMES YOU GOTTA MAKE SOME LOVE!
SOMETIMES YOU GOTTA GIVE HIM SOME SMOOCHES, TOO!
SOMETIMES YOU GOTTA SQUEEZE!
SOMETIMES YOU GOTTA SAY PLEASE!
AND SOMETIMES YOU GOTTA SAY, HEY, I'M GONNA-

...yeah, okay, that went too far. Appologies to Tenacious D. ...um.... yes. Bisexual Joker. I want bisexual Joker. I'M NOT DEMANDING IT, but oh man, if Joker wants some Shepard lovin' in ME3, I'm gonna be all over that.

Abiogenist wrote...

Now, can we ignore this fellow and talk about MShep gettin' some Kaidan-lovin'?

If Kaidan wants to get it on with my gayShep in ME3, I hope there's an option to say, "IT'S ABOUT TIME!"

Modifié par KawaiiKatie, 12 juin 2011 - 07:51 .