612 réponses à ce sujet

[Nohvarr]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Ripley in the Alien series never needed to be sexified. I don't think anyone thought her character as less of a woman or a person because of her being 'rough and natural' to look at. It fitted her character.

Same it should have been with Ashley in ME series, given the chracter that was established for her.

Just imagine the facepalming if Ripley in Aliens had suddenly started to run around in latex and high heels just to suit some weird perception some marketing dude got about female charcters in visual art...

It's stupid to change established characers in such ways.

Since Ash is not wearing Latex or high heels I don't see the problem...

[Eski.Moe]

Nohvarr wrote...

Eski.Moe wrote...

^ She responded to it though and in a rather dismissive way.

Link, I'd like to read it for myself.

You haven't seen the art direction comment? I think this is the one, Twitter isn't being too responsive to me atm. Look for others on the page where comments further on the changes.
http://twitter.com/#...407240360103936

Granted, it isn't necessariliy harsh but I'm more commenting on the general tone. It's understandable however she's commenting on something that people here are claiming shouldn't be directed to her. Maybe diverting those criticisms to the more appropriate person would be favourable. I'm not really against what she's saying or how she's responding but am just pointing out that she IS responding and thus is showing that she's receptive to receiving such comments about costumes and all that.

I really think I've just confused myself.

[syllogi]

Nohvarr wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

I respect artistic vision, but when it's directly contradicting the artistic vision of the writers who created a character, that's a problem.

Ashley's writer has come out and said they didn't like the redesign and felt it conflicted with her character?

Obviously not, but according to how Ashley was written in the first game, she values protection over style in combat.  Do you disagree with that assessment of how she was written?

[SalsaDMA]

Nohvarr wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Ripley in the Alien series never needed to be sexified. I don't think anyone thought her character as less of a woman or a person because of her being 'rough and natural' to look at. It fitted her character.

Same it should have been with Ashley in ME series, given the chracter that was established for her.

Just imagine the facepalming if Ripley in Aliens had suddenly started to run around in latex and high heels just to suit some weird perception some marketing dude got about female charcters in visual art...

It's stupid to change established characers in such ways.

Since Ash is not wearing Latex or high heels I don't see the problem...

I am sure you don't...

Some of us do, as you will notice from these threads popping up.

[Eski.Moe]

Nohvarr wrote...
Ashley's writer has come out and said they didn't like the redesign and felt it conflicted with her character?

Didn't Ashley's writer leave?

[Gabriel S.]

Nohvarr wrote...

Gabriel Stelinski wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

why the hell are people bothering a lead gameplay designer about art direction??

that like harassing me (a customer service guy) about shipment scheduling!!!

Why are we even conversin on this forum, asking each other questions and replying and having idle chatter, that's like - HARASSMENT! Call the coppers!

Not the same, people are badgering someone for information who has little to do with character design. The reason they're doing it, seems to be because she's there and not because she can actually do anything about it.

As I understand it she responded, even if she didn't have to and clearly shouldn't have, because it made people think she had answers. Oh, wait... she does - oh, wait... she doesn't. Err, which one is it again.

Um, regardless, isn't there a thread that discusses this particular thing? If not, and you clearly seem so keen and interested in the personal defense of Christina Norman, then by all means, create one. Then all of you who think badgering and pestering her is such a wrong and immoral thing can go there and have the discussion of a lifetime, and please leave threads like this one alone.

[CroGamer002]

Phaedon wrote...

I followed the whole incident.

I remember one tweet actually, which pissed me off (most things do at this time of the year)

tip for devs: your fans pay your wages, don't ignore their criticisms as being less important than your vision.

I want ME3 to be a painting which expresses the artists' personalities, not the fans', if realism isn't a characteristic of their personalities, then boo hoo, sod off, I think we have had enough fan service lately, and still Bioware doesn't realise that whiners are going to be whiners.

Problem is that they're changing Ashley and Kaidan for no good reason.


Who the hell thinks is good idea to make Kaidan look like a stereotypical guy with badass big armor, even though having heavy armor is counter productive for Biotics.
While for Ashley to look like stereotypical woman with tight suit to see her assets better even though she prefers heavy armor.

I really don't see this to be a good idea.

[AngelicMachinery]

Catsuits r srs bizness.

[-Skorpious-]

Phaedon wrote...

I followed the whole incident.

I remember one tweet actually, which pissed me off (most things do at this time of the year)

tip for devs: your fans pay your wages, don't ignore their criticisms as being less important than your vision.

I want ME3 to be a painting which expresses the artists' personalities, not the fans', if realism isn't a characteristic of their personalities, then boo hoo, sod off, I think we have had enough fan service lately, and still Bioware doesn't realise that whiners are going to be whiners.

Would it really be a disservice to Bioware's vision if they create two unique outfits for Ashley instead of one? Is pleasing fans who ask for the choice to experience gender equality (this can go both ways mind you) such bad "fanservice"? 

[Phaedon]

Based on what? The screenshots or videos that we have seen so far? That give nothing out about their personality?

Miranda for example, having problems with her? Because she is "daumped daun too seksy ass"? She has one of the fullest personalities that a video game character ever had lately, and her looks serve her personality well.

If you can't overlook past her ass, then that's probably your own problem, and it's just sad when you make fun of the "part of the fan base that her buttocks are designed for", when you are far worse.

[Phaedon]

-Skorpious- wrote...
Would it really be a disservice to Bioware's vision if they create two unique outfits for Ashley instead of one? Is pleasing fans who ask for the choice to experience gender equality (this can go both ways mind you) such bad "fanservice"? 

"We don't compromise our artistic vision"

   -Christina Norman

--
Bringing gender equality into the argument? Look at Jacob and feel bad about what a serious subject you just tried using as an argument please.

And don't bring the "this can go both ways mind you", that makes no sense. You can't be sexist equally towards both sexes.

Modifié par Phaedon, 12 juin 2011 - 03:39 .

[Estelindis]

Mesina2 wrote...

Who the hell thinks is good idea to make Kaidan look like a stereotypical guy with badass big armor, even though having heavy armor is counter productive for Biotics.

Most fans of Kaidan love his new armour, actually. It's not much of a break with lore up to this point because all Shepards wore the same kind of medium-to-heavy armour in ME2, regardless of biotic or non-biotic status.

But that doesn't mean we think Ashley should be stripped of her iconic heavy armour.

Of course, we've only seen a few glimpses of each of them so far; it could be that Kaidan wears something lighter during the scene we've seen with Shepard jumping onto the Normandy where Ash is waiting. I continue to hope for separate combat and casual outfits. :-)

[theelementslayer]

This still an issue? She isnt wearing a catsuit or latex or high heels. Her shoes are all purpose combat shoes, her suit a lighter armour. I think the word catsuit is being thrown around way too casually, because she is NOT wearing a catsuit. With a catsuit there is alot less there, she is wearing light armour.

And also this isnt your game, this is BioWares, they can do whatever the hell they want with her character. If you think you can go do better then go apply to BioWare, become their art director, and you can start making ashley non-catsuited as you guys say.

Seriously, BioWare has made their decision, live and let live.

[CroGamer002]

Phaedon wrote...

Based on what? The screenshots or videos that we have seen so far? That give nothing out about their personality?

Personality is not an issue but this blatant stereotypical outfits that are are out their character are a problem.

Miranda for example, having problems with her? Because she is "daumped daun too seksy ass"? She has one of the fullest personalities that a video game character ever had lately, and her looks serve her personality well.

Problem wasn't that she had that on Normandy, that was perfectly fine, but problem was that she goes with same outfit and high heels in battle.

That's dumb.

If you can't overlook past her ass, then that's probably your own problem, and it's just sad when you make fun of the "part of the fan base that her buttocks are designed for", when you are far worse.

It's not a problem to have a sexy character and show her assets when having a brake, but to have this kind of clothing in combat?
Seriously?!

[Eski.Moe]

Phaedon wrote...
Miranda for example, having problems with her? Because she is "daumped daun too seksy ass"? She has one of the fullest personalities that a video game character ever had lately, and her looks serve her personality well.

If you can't overlook past her ass, then that's probably your own problem, and it's just sad when you make fun of the "part of the fan base that her buttocks are designed for", when you are far worse.

It's pretty hard to overlook her ass when the camera angles are made so that it's regularly in view when talking to her. Makes dialogue with her pretty funny. I don't mind Miranda myself but come on.

Modifié par Eski.Moe, 12 juin 2011 - 03:49 .

[-Skorpious-]

Phaedon wrote...

-Skorpious- wrote...
Would it really be a disservice to Bioware's vision if they create two unique outfits for Ashley instead of one? Is pleasing fans who ask for the choice to experience gender equality (this can go both ways mind you) such bad "fanservice"? 

"We don't compromise our artistic vision"

   -Christina Norman

--
Bringing gender equality into the argument? Look at Jacob and feel bad about what a serious subject you just tried using as an argument please.

I did not like Miranda's, Jacob's, Samara's, and to a lesser extent Jack's, ME2 outfits. However, as ME2 is on store shelves, there is nothing I can do about it at this point. Plus, when I said "it can both ways" Jacob was one of the examples I had in mind for his poor "sex sells" appearance. 

However, I don't like Ashley's outfit. Bioware doesn't have to "compromise artistic vision" to suit my needs, but that doesn't mean I have to passively accept and stay silent about every change they make without providing feedback. Besides, I am not advocating that Bioware scrap Ashley's current armor, but develop a heavier varient as an alternate outfit.

Everybody wins. 

Modifié par -Skorpious-, 12 juin 2011 - 03:46 .

[Eski.Moe]

Terrible glitching going on. Sorry all.

Modifié par Eski.Moe, 12 juin 2011 - 03:49 .

[CroGamer002]

Estelindis wrote...

Most fans of Kaidan love his new armour, actually. It's not much of a break with lore up to this point because all Shepards wore the same kind of medium-to-heavy armour in ME2, regardless of biotic or non-biotic status.

I was thinking too before that looks great on him.

But then I checked Codex for some other thing so I realized it makes no sense for him to use that armor.

But that doesn't mean we think Ashley should be stripped of her iconic heavy armour.

Of course, we've only seen a few glimpses of each of them so far; it could be that Kaidan wears something lighter during the scene we've seen with Shepard jumping onto the Normandy where Ash is waiting. I continue to hope for separate combat and casual outfits. :-)

Well I hope so too.

[Phaedon]

[quote]Mesina2 wrote...
Personality is not an issue but this blatant stereotypical outfits that are are out their character are a problem.[/quote]
What does stereotypical mean? The uniforms are part of their personality, and not all heavy armour users = testosterone filled men. That's a stereotype towards heavy armour users.

[quote]Problem wasn't that she had that on Normandy, that was perfectly fine, but problem was that she goes with same outfit and high heels in battle.

That's dumb.[/quote]That's probably rushed, not dumb.

Didn't you notice that half of the crew slept in their armours? In both games.
[quote]IIt's not a problem to have a sexy character and show her assets when having a brake, but to have this kind of clothing in combat?

Seriously?![/quote][/quote]
I just posted my opinnion on that matter in the previous paragraph.

After all, AP2, is also a product of Bioware's artistic vision, right?

[Eski.Moe]

edit - lol, edit turned into a quote. :|

[Estelindis]

Phaedon wrote...
If you can't overlook past her ass, then that's probably your own problem

Really?  The fact that a cutscene forces Miranda's posterior into the foreground, where it takes up a large part of my screen, is my fault?  Because that's the only thing that ever makes it difficult for me to overlook her ass - you know, when it's blatantly being shoved in my face.

May Ashley never, ever be subjected to this "artistic" treatment.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Eski.Moe, but it's worth repeating all the same.

Modifié par Estelindis, 12 juin 2011 - 03:50 .

[Nohvarr]

TeenZombie wrote...

Nohvarr wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

I respect artistic vision, but when it's directly contradicting the artistic vision of the writers who created a character, that's a problem.

Ashley's writer has come out and said they didn't like the redesign and felt it conflicted with her character?

Obviously not, but according to how Ashley was written in the first game, she values protection over style in combat.  Do you disagree with that assessment of how she was written?

Problem, that was her two years previous, before facing Saren, before traveling with Shepard, before the destruction of the Normandy, and before becoming a Spectre. People's views change.

[Pups_of_war_76]

Yes.

At this point we have probably outstripped even the silliness of ME2's squadmate outfits.

While those were blatantly disrespectful of the lore and the pre-existing style of the series, at least Casey's explanation for them, while probably pulled from his you-know-where, sort of made sense. He said that the outfits were designed to help establish the characters' identity. Meaning that Miranda's ridiculous outfit is because of her femme-fatale status, Jack's is to show off her tatts, etc.

Now we have a similar design philosophy being applied to a character whose characterization is largely founded on ideals of martial pragmatism and toughness, so even that earlier arse-covering move doesn't hold much water anymore.

Modifié par Pups_of_war_76, 12 juin 2011 - 03:55 .

[-Skorpious-]

Nohvarr wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

Nohvarr wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

I respect artistic vision, but when it's directly contradicting the artistic vision of the writers who created a character, that's a problem.

Ashley's writer has come out and said they didn't like the redesign and felt it conflicted with her character?

Obviously not, but according to how Ashley was written in the first game, she values protection over style in combat.  Do you disagree with that assessment of how she was written?

Problem, that was her two years previous, before facing Saren, before traveling with Shepard, before the destruction of the Normandy, and before becoming a Spectre. People's views change.

Sure peoples view change, but changing your outfit to one that offers less protection in an combat environment is simply stupid. 

[Gabriel S.]

Phaedon wrote...

Based on what? The screenshots or videos that we have seen so far? That give nothing out about their personality?

Miranda for example, having problems with her? Because she is "daumped daun too seksy ass"? She has one of the fullest personalities that a video game character ever had lately, and her looks serve her personality well.

If you can't overlook past her ass, then that's probably your own problem, and it's just sad when you make fun of the "part of the fan base that her buttocks are designed for", when you are far worse.

Isn't this the main concern here? That Williams' new outfit doesn't fit the personality established in the first game. Oh, yes, it does because people change in two years so fundamentaly it resembles a hit on the cranium.

At least, I, personally, see a change from grunt to hooker a fundamental one.

Modifié par Gabriel Stelinski, 12 juin 2011 - 03:53 .