96 réponses à ce sujet

[Phaedon]

Besides, anything that belongs to a criminal third party and not an innocent idividual is to be confiscated. Now, get off the ship.

[Dark Star]

Phaedon wrote...

Now let me put you these omni-cuffs.

How exactly do you handcuff someone using light?  



Anyways, the Alliance doesn't really have to report to anyone. Cerberus is a terrorist organization.  Imagine if the United States goverment used some equipment it siezed from Al-Qaeda.  I'm pretty sure no one is going to call the government "thieves," well, at least in that respect.

[JadeEffect]

Think about it though. How would the Alliance look if the Council or other races find out that the Alliance is doing brutual experiments on children, and such horrible things?

But an organization like Cerberus, which could be back by the Alliance can do all of things, and the galatic community would be disgusted with Cerberus and now the Alliance.

Funny how we can get intel on where the SB is, but we can't get intel on who is TIM, where is TIM. Maybe because the Alliance is withholding that information? It's safe to say the Alliance has Cerberus operatives who are loyal to TIM and can keep his identity protected, from even powerful all knowning beings like the SB.

[Someone With Mass]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...
Based off of, but also heavily modified. Even the base SR2 is demonstrably different than the SR1, to say nothing of the SR2 after all of the upgrades - which the Alliance now possesses, top secret Quarian, Turian, Asari, and Drell technology that they have no claim to.

Modified with tech that doesn't belong to Cerberus either.

The Alliance is also a national military, so they have the right to confiscate it. And we don't even know what the Alliance are doing with those upgrades. They could've removed them for all we know.

[Father_Jerusalem]

Dark Star wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Now let me put you these omni-cuffs.

How exactly do you handcuff someone using light?  



Anyways, the Alliance doesn't really have to report to anyone. Cerberus is a terrorist organization.  Imagine if the United States goverment used some equipment it siezed from Al-Qaeda.  I'm pretty sure no one is going to call the government "thieves," well, at least in that respect.

But Cerberus isn't Al-Qaeda, they're not terrorists. Nothing they've done is to create terror, they're using unethical means sure, but to promote the ascension of the human race, not commit terror.

And Phaedon, as long as that warrant is in the game and signed by an Alliance judge, then I have no problem with the Alliance taking the SR2 - but all we've heard is the word "repurposed" which leads me to believe there is no warrant, and that still raises the question of all the upgrades you made to the Normandy, and whether the Alliance has any right to those, warrant or not.

[ElitePinecone]

Bad King wrote...

Just because it has independent origins to the Alliance doesn't mean that Cerberus couldn't have merged with the Alliance later. BioWare for example wasn't always making EA games, they are now. The Alliance may have seen the potensial in TIM's organisation and proposed that TIM's organisation would become a part of the Alliance and would in return receive resources and protection from high ranking Alliance officials.

Also the codex is Alliance made, so any info you get from there about Cerberus will likely be Alliance propaganda (trying to cover up Cerberus's links with the Alliance).

I'm sorry, but this is silly. You're making sweeping assumptions from literally zero evidence. 

Every post-ME1 reference to Cerberus has indicated that they're an independent organisation and that the Alliance fears their influence. Yes, some high-ranking Alliance officials have ties to Cerberus.

But clearly just as many, if not more, are deeply opposed to their mission. 

Why would The Illusive Man need to have agents in the top tiers of the Alliance if he was taking orders from them? How would Hackett rise to Admiral status and not be aware that his organisation had enveloped Cerberus? Why would Shepard need to be hidden from the Alliance for two years if Cerberus was part of the organisation? Why would the Alliance actively disown Shepard and her/his crew because of even the suspiscion of Cerberus ties?

More to the point, why would Bioware not indicate this connection sooner? Everything they've ever written has said that Cerberus and the Alliance are at odds. 

I can accept what we already know - that there are links there and that some Alliance officials are Cerberus sympathisers - but suggesting anything else on the basis of no evidence is misguided. 

[PsychoWARD23]

Cerberus went rogue, it's a Galactic war, Shepard needs a ship, connect the dots.

[JadeEffect]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...
Based off of, but also heavily modified. Even the base SR2 is demonstrably different than the SR1, to say nothing of the SR2 after all of the upgrades - which the Alliance now possesses, top secret Quarian, Turian, Asari, and Drell technology that they have no claim to.

Modified with tech that doesn't belong to Cerberus either.

The Alliance is also a national military, so they have the right to confiscate it. And we don't even know what the Alliance are doing with those upgrades. They could've removed them for all we know.

The SR2 is a replica of Normandy SR.  That is a product of the Alliance and Turians.  By right it is Alliance, because it's based off of their design.

It's like you make your own NBA jersey, you put #3 and Wade on the back but have the front say CHEAT instead of Heat.  That will still be copyright, even with the modification.

Am I right or wrong?

[Bullets McDeath]

Government organizations doing morally questionable things? In a time of war? **** me with a tricycle, I can hardly believe it.

[Merchant2006]

Bad King wrote...

Except Cerberus is part of the Alliance, has been all along. DUN! DUN! DUUUN!!!

Mind = Blown

[Father_Jerusalem]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...
Based off of, but also heavily modified. Even the base SR2 is demonstrably different than the SR1, to say nothing of the SR2 after all of the upgrades - which the Alliance now possesses, top secret Quarian, Turian, Asari, and Drell technology that they have no claim to.

Modified with tech that doesn't belong to Cerberus either.

The Alliance is also a national military, so they have the right to confiscate it. And we don't even know what the Alliance are doing with those upgrades. They could've removed them for all we know.

Well they were made to the Normandy while it was under Cerberus command, which I'd say would be a tacit approval that, while maybe not given to Cerberus as a whole, they were given with the knowledge that this division of Cerberus - and not the Alliance - would be using them.

And again, show me in game that the Alliance removes this technology, and I have no problems with it.

[Phaedon]

Dark Star wrote...
How exactly do you handcuff someone using light?  

Omni-cuffs, not holo-cuffs.

That means that the cuffs have multiple purposes, some of which are recreational. 

Father_Jerusalem wrote...
But Cerberus isn't Al-Qaeda, they're not terrorists. Nothing they've done is to create terror, they're using unethical means sure, but to promote the ascension of the human race, not commit terror.

They are, based on FBI's definition and Alliance registration system, but that's irrelevant.

And Phaedon, as long as that warrant is in the game and signed by an Alliance judge, then I have no problem with the Alliance taking the SR2 - but all we've heard is the word "repurposed" which leads me to believe there is no warrant, and that still raises the question of all the upgrades you made to the Normandy, and whether the Alliance has any right to those, warrant or not.

I don't know the US legal system very well, but I am sure that not all things need warrants. Actions that are made "on-the-spot" by noticing the criminal element of an action don't require an arrest warrant to be stopped by the police, for example. But I don't see why you are assuming for the worst.

I remember the Italian police repurposing a racing car that was confiscated by a criminal. Maybe you will want to search that up.

[Winterfly]

I am with the over poster here.

[EsterCloat]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Bad King wrote...

Just because it has independent origins to the Alliance doesn't mean that Cerberus couldn't have merged with the Alliance later. BioWare for example wasn't always making EA games, they are now. The Alliance may have seen the potensial in TIM's organisation and proposed that TIM's organisation would become a part of the Alliance and would in return receive resources and protection from high ranking Alliance officials.

Also the codex is Alliance made, so any info you get from there about Cerberus will likely be Alliance propaganda (trying to cover up Cerberus's links with the Alliance).

I'm sorry, but this is silly. You're making sweeping assumptions from literally zero evidence. 

Every post-ME1 reference to Cerberus has indicated that they're an independent organisation and that the Alliance fears their influence. Yes, some high-ranking Alliance officials have ties to Cerberus.

But clearly just as many, if not more, are deeply opposed to their mission. 

Why would The Illusive Man need to have agents in the top tiers of the Alliance if he was taking orders from them? How would Hackett rise to Admiral status and not be aware that his organisation had enveloped Cerberus? Why would Shepard need to be hidden from the Alliance for two years if Cerberus was part of the organisation? Why would the Alliance actively disown Shepard and her/his crew because of even the suspiscion of Cerberus ties?

More to the point, why would Bioware not indicate this connection sooner? Everything they've ever written has said that Cerberus and the Alliance are at odds. 

I can accept what we already know - that there are links there and that some Alliance officials are Cerberus sympathisers - but suggesting anything else on the basis of no evidence is misguided. 

All this.

On the subject of stealing the Normandy SR2, I don't think anyone really cares in-game. Besides Cerberus I guess.

Modifié par EsterCloat, 12 juin 2011 - 04:24 .

[JadeEffect]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Bad King wrote...

Just because it has independent origins to the Alliance doesn't mean that Cerberus couldn't have merged with the Alliance later. BioWare for example wasn't always making EA games, they are now. The Alliance may have seen the potensial in TIM's organisation and proposed that TIM's organisation would become a part of the Alliance and would in return receive resources and protection from high ranking Alliance officials.

Also the codex is Alliance made, so any info you get from there about Cerberus will likely be Alliance propaganda (trying to cover up Cerberus's links with the Alliance).

I'm sorry, but this is silly. You're making sweeping assumptions from literally zero evidence. 

Every post-ME1 reference to Cerberus has indicated that they're an independent organisation and that the Alliance fears their influence. Yes, some high-ranking Alliance officials have ties to Cerberus.

But clearly just as many, if not more, are deeply opposed to their mission. 

Why would The Illusive Man need to have agents in the top tiers of the Alliance if he was taking orders from them? How would Hackett rise to Admiral status and not be aware that his organisation had enveloped Cerberus? Why would Shepard need to be hidden from the Alliance for two years if Cerberus was part of the organisation? Why would the Alliance actively disown Shepard and her/his crew because of even the suspiscion of Cerberus ties?

More to the point, why would Bioware not indicate this connection sooner? Everything they've ever written has said that Cerberus and the Alliance are at odds. 

I can accept what we already know - that there are links there and that some Alliance officials are Cerberus sympathisers - but suggesting anything else on the basis of no evidence is misguided. 

I'm starting to think Admiral Hackett setup Shepard.

Dr. Kenson was doing research in Batarian space, she went "rogue" as well.  So Hackett knowing Shepard is Cerberus, sends him to do the clean up work..  Hm..  I'm going to elaborate more on this in a later post.

[Father_Jerusalem]

JadeEffect wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

Bad King wrote...

Just because it has independent origins to the Alliance doesn't mean that Cerberus couldn't have merged with the Alliance later. BioWare for example wasn't always making EA games, they are now. The Alliance may have seen the potensial in TIM's organisation and proposed that TIM's organisation would become a part of the Alliance and would in return receive resources and protection from high ranking Alliance officials.

Also the codex is Alliance made, so any info you get from there about Cerberus will likely be Alliance propaganda (trying to cover up Cerberus's links with the Alliance).

I'm sorry, but this is silly. You're making sweeping assumptions from literally zero evidence. 

Every post-ME1 reference to Cerberus has indicated that they're an independent organisation and that the Alliance fears their influence. Yes, some high-ranking Alliance officials have ties to Cerberus.

But clearly just as many, if not more, are deeply opposed to their mission. 

Why would The Illusive Man need to have agents in the top tiers of the Alliance if he was taking orders from them? How would Hackett rise to Admiral status and not be aware that his organisation had enveloped Cerberus? Why would Shepard need to be hidden from the Alliance for two years if Cerberus was part of the organisation? Why would the Alliance actively disown Shepard and her/his crew because of even the suspiscion of Cerberus ties?

More to the point, why would Bioware not indicate this connection sooner? Everything they've ever written has said that Cerberus and the Alliance are at odds. 

I can accept what we already know - that there are links there and that some Alliance officials are Cerberus sympathisers - but suggesting anything else on the basis of no evidence is misguided. 

I'm starting to think Admiral Hackett setup Shepard.

Dr. Kenson was doing research in Batarian space, she went "rogue" as well.  So Hackett knowing Shepard is Cerberus, sends him to do the clean up work..  Hm..  I'm going to elaborate more on this in a later post.

Oh Hackett absolutely set Shepard up, in order to frame him for the murder of 300,000 Batarians, in order to bring him to Earth for trial, IN ORDER.... for the Alliance to get their hands on the SR2!

The dots - they fit together. Dun dun DUN.

[Dark Star]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Dark Star wrote...

Anyways, the Alliance doesn't really have to report to anyone. Cerberus is a terrorist organization.  Imagine if the United States goverment used some equipment it siezed from Al-Qaeda.  I'm pretty sure no one is going to call the government "thieves," well, at least in that respect.

But Cerberus isn't Al-Qaeda, they're not terrorists. Nothing they've done is to create terror, they're using unethical means sure, but to promote the ascension of the human race, not commit terror.

And Phaedon, as long as that warrant is in the game and signed by an Alliance judge, then I have no problem with the Alliance taking the SR2 - but all we've heard is the word "repurposed" which leads me to believe there is no warrant, and that still raises the question of all the upgrades you made to the Normandy, and whether the Alliance has any right to those, warrant or not.

Cerberus is classified as a terrorist organization by both the Citadel Council and the Systems Alliance [1].  "Throughout the 2160s and 2170s, alleged Cerberus agents assassinated politicians, sabotaged starships bearing eezo, and conducted nightmarish experiments on aliens and humans" [2].  Cerberus IS a terrorist organization.  

Of course their means look extreme and from their perspective they are promoting the human race.  Going back to my Al-Qaeda analogy, those guys view themselves as freedom fighters and advocates of fundamental religion.  I wouldn't stop calling Al-Qaeda a terroist organization based on that though.

Regarding Phaedon's comment about a warrant and you claiming they need a judge, that is incorrect.  First off, we don't know that the judicial system of the Systems Alliance government behaves in this way, (although I assume it would, we don't have proof).  Second, a warrant is not needed for seizing military assets.  Judges are only needed to sign warrants regarding civil and domestic affairs.

Modifié par Dark Star, 12 juin 2011 - 04:32 .

[lovgreno]

The Alliance and Shepard confiscated the Normandy from Failberus as they are now a enemy to the Human Alliance, Shepard and everyone else (except maybe the reapers). That's how war works.

[Wulfram]

It's not Cerberus' anymore. Shepard has already stolen it, and she doesn't mind the Alliance giving it a few upgrades and a better paint job.

Modifié par Wulfram, 12 juin 2011 - 04:36 .

[sponge56]

Im pretty sure that if I stole the designs for a top secret Royal Navy nuclear submarine, then built one myself, and made it better, that I wont be able to keep it. And also paragon Shepard has already nicked the Normandy from Cerberus, you've got to have pretty weird morals to object to a thief stealing from a thief.

[Phaedon]

Dark Star wrote...
Cerberus is classified as a terrorist organization by both the Citadel Council and the Systems Alliance [1].  "Throughout the 2160s and 2170s, alleged Cerberus agents assassinated politicians, sabotaged starships bearing eezo, and conducted nightmarish experiments on aliens and humans" [2].  Cerberus IS a terrorist organization.  

This is why I hate all those forum arguments about Cerberus being terrorists.
Most legal systems have a very vague definition of terrorism, that doesn't change much about Cerberus as an organization, just how many years their operatives will be serving.

Regarding Phaedon's comment about a warrant and you claiming they need a judge, that is incorrect.  First off, we don't know that the judicial system of the Systems Alliance government behaves in this way, (although I assume it would, we don't have proof).  Second, a warrant is not needed for seizing military assets.  Judges are only needed to sign warrants regarding civil and domestic affairs.

How would you define military assets? Do the assets of an "internal" paramilitary organization count as such?

[ladyvader]

The way I look at it, Shepard stole the Normandy, not the Alliance. I know I told the Illusive Man that he worked for me now.

[_NF_Von_Lipwig]

Dark Star wrote...
How exactly do you handcuff someone using light?  

The same way you stab someone to death with it?




---


I'm fairly certain that taking the SR-2 from Cerberus is perfectly legal as Crberus is a criminal/terrorist origanisation in the eyes of the Alliance. The police can confiscate drug shipments from the Mafia, and the army can confiscae weapons from the Taliban/Al-qaeda. Now I doubt the police will actually repurpose a cocaine shipment for their own recreational use (although you never know) and the army would be unlikely to use any captured Taliban tech (since, let's be honest, nothing they use has been made after 1985), but in this case they would be damn well interested in all those new techs they find in a ship design that is ultimately theirs (and the Turians of course).

And as we could see, Shepard flies away in it in the demo, and Earth looks pretty bummed so I'm guessing ownership reverts back to Shepard by default

[Father_Jerusalem]

Dark Star wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Dark Star wrote...

Anyways, the Alliance doesn't really have to report to anyone. Cerberus is a terrorist organization.  Imagine if the United States goverment used some equipment it siezed from Al-Qaeda.  I'm pretty sure no one is going to call the government "thieves," well, at least in that respect.

But Cerberus isn't Al-Qaeda, they're not terrorists. Nothing they've done is to create terror, they're using unethical means sure, but to promote the ascension of the human race, not commit terror.

And Phaedon, as long as that warrant is in the game and signed by an Alliance judge, then I have no problem with the Alliance taking the SR2 - but all we've heard is the word "repurposed" which leads me to believe there is no warrant, and that still raises the question of all the upgrades you made to the Normandy, and whether the Alliance has any right to those, warrant or not.

Cerberus is classified as a terrorist organization by both the Citadel Council and the Systems Alliance [1].  "Throughout the 2160s and 2170s, alleged Cerberus agents assassinated politicians, sabotaged starships bearing eezo, and conducted nightmarish experiments on aliens and humans" [2].  Cerberus IS a terrorist organization.  

Of course their means look extreme and from their perspective they are promoting the human race.  Going back to my Al-Qaeda analogy, those guys view themselves as freedom fighters and advocates of fundamental religion.  I wouldn't stop calling Al-Qaeda a terroist organization based on that though.

Regarding Phaedon's comment about a warrant and you claiming they need a judge, that is incorrect.  First off, we don't know that the judicial system of the Systems Alliance government behaves in this way, (although I assume it would, we don't have proof).  Second, a warrant is not needed for seizing military assets.  Judges are only needed to sign warrants regarding civil and domestic affairs.

Well we don't know what the Alliance judicial system or miltary judicial system is. All I'm asking is that there be some mention of the Alliance using the judicial system in order to take control of the SR2, as well as mentions of what happens to the personnel aboard, and the return of the upgrades to their respective governments. 

The issue I have is with the word "repurposed", which makes it seem, to me, like the Alliance just said "Nice ship. We're taking it." 

I'm not trying to start a discussion about whether or not Cerberus is a terrorist organization, I'm really not. I'm not, necessarily, pro-Cerberus or anti-Alliance, my concern is, for the most part, what happens to the Cerberus personnel and the alien technology aboard the Normandy, as well as coming up with yet another plausible explanation as to why Cerberus is after Shepard that's more than the lame-ass "indoctrination".

Modifié par Father_Jerusalem, 12 juin 2011 - 04:52 .

[Rompa87]

Phaedon wrote...

How would you define military assets? Do the assets of an "internal" paramilitary organization count as such?

How would you?

The Normandy is clearly armed enough to be the equivalent to a present day fully armed battle cruiser. Not something a civilian is allowed to posess