It depends on who you ask. One mans freedom fighter is anothers terrorist. Whatever cathegorisations we choose for Cerberus and their ships they are now an enemy to the Human Alliance. You don't let your enemy keep a advanced ship and weapon.Phaedon wrote...
This is why I hate all those forum arguments about Cerberus being terrorists.Dark Star wrote...
Cerberus is classified as a terrorist organization by both the Citadel Council and the Systems Alliance [1]. "Throughout the 2160s and 2170s, alleged Cerberus agents assassinated politicians, sabotaged starships bearing eezo, and conducted nightmarish experiments on aliens and humans" [2]. Cerberus IS a terrorist organization.
Most legal systems have a very vague definition of terrorism, that doesn't change much about Cerberus as an organization, just how many years their operatives will be serving.How would you define military assets? Do the assets of an "internal" paramilitary organization count as such?Regarding Phaedon's comment about a warrant and you claiming they need a judge, that is incorrect. First off, we don't know that the judicial system of the Systems Alliance government behaves in this way, (although I assume it would, we don't have proof). Second, a warrant is not needed for seizing military assets. Judges are only needed to sign warrants regarding civil and domestic affairs.
The Alliance are Thieves.
#51
Posté 12 juin 2011 - 04:50
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Retour en haut
#52
Posté 12 juin 2011 - 04:52
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No, I am actually wondering if you need a warrant to confiscate a battleship from Cerberus, less than you need a warrant for confiscating a battleship from a civillian.Rompa87 wrote...
How would you?
The Normandy is clearly armed enough to be the equivalent to a present day fully armed battle cruiser. Not something a civilian is allowed to posess
#53
Posté 12 juin 2011 - 05:10
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I think it's safe to assume that Bioware doesn't need an explanation to write that into the story, and if pressed they could easily say that in 2186 the Alliance has full discretionary powers to requisition technology for their own ends, especially if the Normandy SR-2 was based from the blueprints of the original Normandy.
Besides, if Shepard hands over the keys (grudgingly or no) who is going to protest? Cerberus isn't a legitimate organisation with a right to a say in the ship's future, and the Council wouldn't get involved in something so trivial as one ship.
#54
Posté 12 juin 2011 - 05:22
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Father_Jerusalem wrote...
Phaedon wrote...
You sir, need to open the closest book that is somewhat related to criminal justice and read the definitions of.
1. Criminal party.
2. Terrorism.
3. Confiscation.
4. Warrant.
Thank you, have a nice day.
Show me the warrant.
Absolutely police organizations can seize assets belonging to drug dealers and terrorists and the like, but only with a valid warrant and a trial - but from what I've seen and heard, neither of those things happen, the Alliance simply "repurposes" the SR2.
Because they're really going to talk about warrants and confiscations and detail ALL of the laws and official paperwork of how they got the Normandy in their promotional material, because we're so interested in that!
#55
Posté 12 juin 2011 - 05:47
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#56
Guest_Arcian_*
Posté 12 juin 2011 - 05:48
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Father_Jerusalem wrote...
So in ME3, we are flying a "repurposed" Normandy SR2.
A ship built by Cerberus, paid for by Cerberus, and staffed with Cerberus crew. Yet now, it's an Alliance vessel. The Alliance did not pay for the SR2, it's not their ship.
They flat out shipjacked the SR2 from Cerberus.
You want a reason why Cerberus is hunting Shepard down? Well there's a pretty darn good one right there. Yes, bringing Shepard back to life cost them 3 billon credits, but that's a pittance in comparison to what it cost them to build the SR2, and Shepard just... hands it over to the Alliance? Yeah, I'd be pissed too.
Not to mention upgrades like the Thanix Cannon - a proprietary Turian design, now in Alliance hands. Or the Multicore Shielding - a design pioneered by the Quarians. How about the Advanced mineral scanner or Heavy ship armor - both of which were Cerberus designs as well. All of these upgrades are now in the hands of the Alliance, and I know I never heard Garrus say "Oh by the way, feel free to hand over top secret weapons technology to the Alliance when you're done with it".
Say what you will about Cerberus being terrorists and murderers (no to terrorists, yes to murderers, by the way), but at least they don't go around shipjacking people.
#57
Posté 12 juin 2011 - 05:56
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#58
Posté 12 juin 2011 - 05:56
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#59
Posté 12 juin 2011 - 06:01
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nitrog100 wrote...
As far as they're concerned, the Normandy SR2 is based on classified prototype Alliance design specs. They have a right to take it back, especially since Cerberus is a criminal organization.
If you make a toaster, and I get the plans and use those plans to make a toaster, and then upgrade my toaster... that gives you the right to sue me for copyright infringment and even have me arrested for theft, but it doesn't mean you can come and jack my toaster, even if I am a criminal organization....
#60
Posté 12 juin 2011 - 06:09
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#61
Posté 12 juin 2011 - 06:26
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ElitePinecone wrote...
Bad King wrote...
Just because it has independent origins to the Alliance doesn't mean that Cerberus couldn't have merged with the Alliance later. BioWare for example wasn't always making EA games, they are now. The Alliance may have seen the potensial in TIM's organisation and proposed that TIM's organisation would become a part of the Alliance and would in return receive resources and protection from high ranking Alliance officials.
Also the codex is Alliance made, so any info you get from there about Cerberus will likely be Alliance propaganda (trying to cover up Cerberus's links with the Alliance).
1. Why would The Illusive Man need to have agents in the top tiers of the Alliance if he was taking orders from them?
2. How would Hackett rise to Admiral status and not be aware that his organisation had enveloped Cerberus?
3. Why would Shepard need to be hidden from the Alliance for two years if Cerberus was part of the organisation?
4. Why would the Alliance actively disown Shepard and her/his crew because of even the suspiscion of Cerberus ties?
5. More to the point, why would Bioware not indicate this connection sooner? Everything they've ever written has said that Cerberus and the Alliance are at odds.
1. What I'm saying is that Cerberus and the Alliance are seperate organisations and Cerberus are working under the Alliance. That means that TIM doesn't know everything that's going on amongst the Alliance and probably has little influence on the Alliance leadership. What better way to influence the Alliance than plant agents in its top tiers?
2. How do you know that Hackett isn't aware of Alliance/Cerberus ties? He could have been lying to Shepard so as not to fuel a distrust between Shepard and the Alliance.
3. ? I don't recall him needing to be hidden. Anyway, the SB records show that many Alliance officials were calling for Shepard's arrest, but Hackett (being at a higher rank) stopped them. Was he just being a good friend or was he unwilling to impede on a Cerberus (under orders from the Alliance leadership) operation?.....
4. To improve relations with an alien council? If the Alliance were treating Shepard like a king despite him working for a confirmed anti-alien terrorist organisation imagine the breakdown of relations that would be between humanity and the other races.
5. Maybe they're building up to a massive plot twist in ME3...
Obviously I don't 100% believe this theory, but I still think that it's highly plausible.
Modifié par Bad King, 12 juin 2011 - 06:29 .
#62
Posté 12 juin 2011 - 06:26
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Someone With Mass wrote...
The Alliance have all right in the world to confiscate the Normandy, seeing how it belonged to a criminal organisation, and that it's based of their designs.
Think of it as a copyright claim.
This... The original project of the Normandy was thought out by Alliance engineers with the help of Turians, the only thing Cerberus did back then was give a nudge in the right direction to the joint Alliance/Hierarchy construction (and it was to spy on Turian ship design more than to actually create the ship)...
So from a technical point of view it's Cerberus that stoled the Normandy schematics from the Alliance to begin with (they had them because some of the contractor that built the original Normandy were Cerberus fronts)...
I'd also like to point out that the Silaris Heavy Armor for the ship is of Asari make, it's not from Cerberus...
#64
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Posté 12 juin 2011 - 08:30
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Phaedon wrote...
Now let me put you these omni-cuffs.
Don't come any closer to me with those omni-cuffs, or else I'm going to stab you with my omni-blade.
Now that Cerberus attacked Shepard, the ship belongs to Shepard, it's a spoil of war. If the Alliance takes it to "repurpose" it, they're pirates - and that's if they didn't kill the crew. If they killed the crew, they're murderers, and they will pay accordingly.
Stealing is stealing, no matter who commits it - persons, organizations, or governments. Governments get to call their thefts various fancy words and back them with a lot of papers, but it's still theft.
Sure they might have the "right" to confiscate Normandy. I'd love to see them execute that right. *flicks open the omni-blade* They'd better not even think about touching the Lazarus cell. The Collectors took my people, and look where it got them. The Alliance laws don't work everywhere. If the Alliance laws prevent them from helping humanity in the Terminus Systems, then those same laws prevent them from taking my vessel and plastering their logo on it.
Cerberus paid for Normandy with their own money, Shepard paid for the upgrades with his own sweat, the crew paid for that Reapers IFF with their blood, Joker paid for unshackling EDI with his broken bones, Lazarus cell paid for stopping the Collectors with their own lives, and now the Alliance comes to claim the finished product, take credit for their victories, while in fact the Alliance had nothing to do with it. They're thieves.
EDIT: And to the people who think it's okay for the Alliance to take the Normandy, because their laws permit them to do it - guess what, the Reapers probably have the laws that permit them to harvest the galaxy. How about you submit to them, because such are their laws.
Modifié par laecraft, 12 juin 2011 - 08:39 .
#65
Posté 12 juin 2011 - 09:12
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#66
Posté 12 juin 2011 - 09:16
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#67
Posté 12 juin 2011 - 09:27
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#68
Posté 12 juin 2011 - 11:07
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So using the current legal system to exonerate the Alliance for shipjacking is specious at best.
#69
Posté 12 juin 2011 - 11:15
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Father_Jerusalem wrote...
I also want to point out that any Alliance laws regarding the theft of the SR2 are based on current laws, who knows how those laws will change over the next 170 years. Remember, 170 years ago in America slavery was legal - laws evolve and change as the culture demands it.
So using the current legal system to exonerate the Alliance for shipjacking is specious at best.
However, good laws are kept. And the Alliance would have been stupid to throw that one out.
#70
Posté 13 juin 2011 - 12:18
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GreenDragon37 wrote...
Father_Jerusalem wrote...
I also want to point out that any Alliance laws regarding the theft of the SR2 are based on current laws, who knows how those laws will change over the next 170 years. Remember, 170 years ago in America slavery was legal - laws evolve and change as the culture demands it.
So using the current legal system to exonerate the Alliance for shipjacking is specious at best.
However, good laws are kept. And the Alliance would have been stupid to throw that one out.
But again, who's definition of a "good law" are we going by? In Alabama in 1830, slavery was a "good law" but it was eventually thrown out - just because we see things a certain way NOW doesn't mean that the Systems Alliance will see them the same way 170 years from now.
If, for example, terrorism and drug crimes go down anytime in the next century and a half, asset forfeiture laws may similarly become out of fashion and thus discarded, who's to say?
So I still stand by my statement that the Alliance shipjacked the SR2 from Cerberus.
#71
Posté 13 juin 2011 - 12:26
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If, for example, terrorism and drug crimes go down anytime in the next century and a half, asset forfeiture laws may similarly become out of fashion and thus discarded, who's to say?
[quote]
No, they won't.
Asset forfeiture has roots in stopping or preventing organized criminal rackets from being to rely on their financial holdings. If terrorism and drug black market go down, organized crime will find other things to do. And asset forfeiture will still exist, because they weren't passed for the purpose of combating terrorism or the drug trade, but organized crime.
[quote]So I still stand by my statement that the Alliance shipjacked the SR2 from Cerberus.[/quote]
No offense but your argument sucks
#72
Posté 13 juin 2011 - 12:53
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-Nonsense. We have no right to do this. It shall stay in drydock collecting dust as all life around us is destroyed. So it is written, so it shall be done.
Come on. Do you all really want to have the beginning of the game bogged down with discussion on how the Alliance came in possession of the SR2. Did some of you guys like the long Senate scenes in the Star Wars prequels. Nothing says full-out galactic war like bureaucratic proceedings
#73
Posté 13 juin 2011 - 12:58
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#74
Posté 13 juin 2011 - 01:01
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Father_Jerusalem wrote...
If you make a toaster, and I get the plans and use those plans to make a toaster, and then upgrade my toaster... that gives you the right to sue me for copyright infringment and even have me arrested for theft, but it doesn't mean you can come and jack my toaster, even if I am a criminal organization....
Your toaster isn't a high powered warship.
#75
Posté 13 juin 2011 - 01:05
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If anybody got their hands on the Normandy I am sure Cerberus would prefer the Alliance
Cerberus didn't steal the designs from the Alliance they helped co-develop with the Turians and the Alliance
Modifié par jbblue05, 13 juin 2011 - 01:08 .
