494 réponses à ce sujet

[Permutation]

So, because females aren't raging bull dykes on steroids, ME is totally sexist? Shepard isn't exactly your average male, either. What a waste of blogging space.

[TheTouch]

onelifecrisis wrote...

TheTouch wrote...

Jack is such a despicable human being – she’s completely selfish, amoral, and totally unsympathetic. I fail to see the appeal of Jack as a romance, or even as a quick roll in the hay.

Clearly this is bull****, and it's only possible to come to this conclusion if all you've done is scanned the surface of the character.  The Jack romance is one of the most satisfying, as she has to overcome all the barriers that she has had to build up over the years just to make it through the day.  She is revealed as a deep human being who wears her rough tough exterior like a suit of armour.  But the blogger can't see that because she has decided to get pissed off at Jack's 'OMG BEWBS' appearance.

She described Jack as "selfish, amoral, and unsympathetic". You disagreed, but then failed to provide any counterweight at all.

Name one time when Jack is unselfish.
Name one time when Jack is moral.
Name one time when Jack is sympathetic.

Like I said, she's revealed as a damaged human being who wears a tough exterior as a shield against her inner insecurities.  She's also clearly not amoral.  She's not a particularly nice person, but she feels that she has good reason for treating people the way she does.  She's lashing out at people who have done her harm, and for most of her life that has been everybody she ever met.  If that doesn't engender sympathy then I don't know what does.

Her loyalty mission shows that she has morals.  "There's no reason good enough [for what they did to us]."  Being a **** isn't the same as being amoral.  Aria is an example of an amoral character - Jack is just very damaged.  She pushes people away and is focused on her vengeance because of that damage.  Of course she's no Florence Nightingale, but everybody on the ship is there because they know that it's worth risking their lives to fight the collectors.  That's unselfishness right there.

As I say, describing Jack as 'a despicable human being ... completely unsympathetic ... ' demonstrates that the blogger simply hasn't taken the time to actually delve into Jack as a character.

Modifié par TheTouch, 12 juin 2011 - 09:35 .

[Nohvarr]

onelifecrisis wrote...

Letting the guy on her LM go? You can't be serious? Firstly, she only lets the guy go during her LM when top-left-blued by Shepard, it's not something she does of her own accord.

And Wrex only backs down during ME 1 for the same reason. She needed a little help making the right decision, not uncommon in this game. Heck Garrus was about to kill someone until Shepard intervened.

Secondly, I totally fail to see how how not killing someone is some sort of great moral, unselfish act. If that's true then I'm totally moral and unselfish, as I manage to not kill people every day.

Because it's abnormal for her, she's spent her entire life looking out for herself because she believes it was the only way to survive. Now that begins to change.

Hearing about the guy she fell in love with... Jack showed no sympathy there... quite the opposite, actually, when Shepard asks her about survivor's guilt she says it was the guy's own fault.

You didn't hear how she almost cracked when speaking of him, notice that she almost shed a tear? Jack has spent her life pushing people away for fear of getting hurt. Shepards line to her, about staying with her even though she's crazy, about being unable to fix her in a few conversations is one of the better moments in these games. Her problems are not easily fixed, it's going to take a while.

[shadowreflexion]

mopotter wrote...

shadowreflexion wrote...

 
The true ME fanbase is not some organization of perverts. Many are very, very story driven. Everything and everyone isn't perfect in life but every now and again we see something that appeals to us as individuals in real life do we not?

The true bioware fan is made up of many different types of individuals.  Some of her points were things I as a "true fan" agree with.  Some I didn't. 

What I meant, was that the focus on story is going to be a recurring theme not the overall focus on a characters physical attributes. You know, it's really time that people who criticize a form of media entertainment to really look at it as entertainment instead of giving one view too much attention. Bioware gave an option to hit the reporter, how many domestic violence organizations came forward? Then let's talk of the genocide issue. I don't recall the Jewish and people of Darfur coming forward to say that it was in referance to Germany's Adolf Hitler mentality.

Even with the same sex romances. It's just extremely disturbing that while the game does give you choices to make even though some of those choices go against certain cultures and beliefs, a group will still over analylize something as trivial as character builds. If all women in Mass Effect were A and B cups what would the blogger rant about next, lack of the C and D cups? Sure the camera angles showed the body which in all honesty looked great but those same angles did not once make the game less serious or robbed the gamer of a great story.

My real gripe is the lack of openess that anyone doesn't show. People can argue about the good and bad of something all day long but just because one writes over 10 paragraphs doesn't make them right. And just because a few people agree with what someone wrote doesn't provide real justification.

When bloggers such as this offer as many aspects into the whole of the game, then I have no issue whatsoever except the occasional "I don't agree with that." But when someone is so focused on how a character looks and doesn't even scratch the surface on who that character is, then I have a problem. She makes a couple of good points but she refuses to acknowledge that the game does not in any way reflect what the game truly is.

Let's look at from a real life aspect even though it's a game. If Asari were real could it be that the older some of them got, the more firm their bodies become opposed to some humans getting older and begining to lose firmness? To me, her argument was greatly based on a characters build which pushes me towards my first post saying that if all characters were created according to how she expects them to look, would she then be happy? That blogger could be the epitome of the perfect woman in some elses eyes and she could be just as repulsive to others. Does that make her less attractive in the long run? No. 

So while she's tearing down what may be beautiful in the creative department at Bioware, she's knowingly telling others that the way she percieves beauty is the "correct" way it should be seen.

Modifié par shadowreflexion, 12 juin 2011 - 09:38 .

[Apollo Starflare]

Mash Mashington wrote...

Jacob's LM is truly horrible but

"Why couldn't Mirands's LM be like Zaeed's or Grunt's"?

"Jack is an example of a sexist, oversexualized character design"?

lol i should go

Says everything I was going to say in a more succinct way. Plus with added Moomin avatar goodness.

[Ginen]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Also, why do women never complain about good looking guys in the media? You don't see men complaining as much as some women when it comes to the over-sexuality of the same gender. People want to see attractive people. This goes both ways.

There are a lot of mixed messages in mass media. You can have the same company selling Axe--showing women falling over men by having a guy spray on this perfume; and promoting the Dove Campaign for Real Beauty at the same time. One ad is saying 'women will love you' if you use this product. Edit: Other perfume ads are not any different.

Another ad says it's okay be to yourself--fat, thin, pretty, plain, whatever. If people won't accept you, then who cares--you are more important than their whims.

What are people going to think?

Modifié par Ginen, 12 juin 2011 - 09:41 .

[ReallyRue]

Jack never struck me as a sexualised character because her appearance is so unconventional. She doesn't seem half as fanservice-y as Miranda or Samara in terms of design, with or without a top on. She also doesn't stand or move in a stereotypically feminine way, which also suggests she isn't fanservice-y.

Samara's Abosolute Cleavage, Miranda's catsuit, and the fact Shepard talks to her backside way too often are ridiculous, but not every shot is proof of 'gender-fail'. A shot that happens to have Miranda's breasts in it - because it's a shot from the waist up - doesn't seem like it's done just to emphasise her boobs. And except for the initial meeting scene, and her fight with Morinth, Samara's scenes don't seem overly-sexualised. Neither does the way she stands.

Some of this article has good points in, and things that Bioware should work on. Other bits seem like nitpicking.

Modifié par ReallyRue, 12 juin 2011 - 09:38 .

[Lady Luck]

Chewin3 wrote...

I'm fairly disappointed at this feminist blogger. I thought her blog would be valid and eminent, but it was not.

Okay, I get that she complains over something she doesn’t like what she sees, and this being oversexual females showing their cleavage. This annoys her very much, so she makes an article highlighting every single example of sexism showing in ME2 with screenshots and point out all the ways it disgusts her. What the hell? So how would you want the women to stand in front of the camera?

It seems to me like there is no way for them to present their female characters without somehow, in your eyes, emphasizing their boobs. If they’re standing sideways? Boob shot. Looking up at them? Boob shot. Looking down? Boob shot. Are they in the middle of the screen? So are their boobs. Boob shot. Are they standing up straight? They’re pushing out their boobs. Boob shot. Leaning over? Boob shot as well. I understand complaints about what you call “boob perspective” and about shots that look down a character’s top, but looking at the variety of angles and poses you are condemning here, it would appear that the only safe shot would be as follows:

1. Standing straight, but not TOO straight.

2. Character looking straight at the screen, so as to avoid emphasizing the boobs via a side angle.

3. The camera angle running parallel to the ground, at a level somewhere
between the breasts and the top of the head, to avoid looking up at the
bottom or down at the tops of the breasts.

4. The character must be off-center, so that her breasts aren’t in the middle of the shot with her.

What I'm trying to say is, I just feel like there is no way they could have made their cut scenes fit the criteria you are giving without drastically reducing their available options.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Now, what's on here take on Jack, Samara, Miri and Tali? I don't get it. Again the boob shot here and there. They do have character, you know. That's why they have their 'unique sexual style'.

- Jack hit me in a different way than maybe her characterization was supposed to… Everything about how she is dressed and acts says “Pay attention to and FEAR me! Rawr!” So she came across to me as very troubled. I did not find her sexual at all, but rather felt protective and maternal towards her, wanting her to see life in a different way. I mean, she wields sexuality as a weapon – but she is not attractive. As I see it, she has gone out of her way to not be attractive – her hair is gone, her tattoos are not designed to please the viewer, her breasts are almost totally exposed but small and actually visually deemphasized by the tattoos and the straps. Her breasts do not visually stand out nearly as much as Samara’s (there is little to no color contrast).

- Okay, I agree that Miranda can be a little 'problematic'. I saw it as part of the “striving to be too perfect to too many people too much of the time” thing she suffers from in her life. I was left wanting her to know she did not have to do
that, her competency was enough. She talked about being designed for hotness enough that I felt like it was impressed to her by her father often enough for that hotness itself had become baggage, a detriment to
her deciding her own fate. So put down short, Miri was a stereotypically hot Cheerleader, feel sorry for her cuz she has to be perfect and hot all the time. But her character was (thank God see at least said it herself) very good written, and that we can see from her loyalty mission.

- You could discribe Tali as a geek girl hidden behind big glasses/glass plate, even more insecure than the boy geek, which she basically is. Particularly gets on my nerves because her characterization is so heavy handed with it.

- When it comes down to Samara, well okay, I cant really say much there.

Chewin3, I just wanna say that I love you.

[SamT3N7]

Mash Mashington wrote...

SamT3N7 wrote...

I really need to thank her for reducing Ash once again to a "xenophobic jerk". That was really needed.

Geezuz. Good thing i didn't get to that part, and i've raged too much already to care anymore

She praises Ash as being an out-of-the-norm type female character at one part, but in her other articles and in the comments she reduces Ash once again to being racist and uninteresting.

Edit: Also the thing about Leliana being over-sexualized is ridiculous.  But that's not as on-topic as the Ash comment.

Modifié par SamT3N7, 12 juin 2011 - 09:41 .

[mopotter]

Gatt9 wrote...

mopotter wrote...
But with these issues, BioWare is still my favorite game company because I can play a woman like Shepard or Hawke and the way they portray their female NPC's. They are strong, capable and will fight along side me not wait till someone else saves them from danger. More DLC clothing options is always a help when there is a disagreement on how someone should dress.

Is there another company named Bioware?  Because this one just writes women who might be able to fight,  but are all waiting for some man to come along and solve their problems for them,  then they just fall right over into bed.

 

Well, since I generally play as a female, most of my female companions are not waiting for some man to fix their problems, and as female Shepard or Hawk, I'm willling to help a friend, male or female, with whatever they need help with.    

My male Shepard's romanced Ash, Liara and Jack.  I found the paragon Jack romance rather sweet.  I tried the Miranda romance and didn't care for it so re-played that character.  I wouldn't mind someone telling Shepard no thanks but that probably won't happen, unless you try to romance Miranda. Jack or Tali after not siding with them.  

Ok,  yes,  I'm exagerrating...a little bit.  Occasionally you get a Tali,  Liara,  or the girl in KotOR,  but for the most part,  that's most of their women.  The rest all have some secret inner issue that they just can't get over,  until Male X comes in and solves it in 4 seconds making their world perfect.

DLC isn't a solution when the artist thinks his job is to compete for the "Most unrealistic rack and the amount of screen time it was given" award.

Do agree with the unrealistic rack part, but I'll still take the DLC clothing pack since I don't expect this to change any time soon.    

[onelifecrisis]

Nohvarr wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

Letting the guy on her LM go? You can't be serious? Firstly, she only lets the guy go during her LM when top-left-blued by Shepard, it's not something she does of her own accord.

And Wrex only backs down during ME 1 for the same reason. She needed a little help making the right decision, not uncommon in this game. Heck Garrus was about to kill someone until Shepard intervened.

Wrex and Garrus both had arguably unselfish reasons. Wrex wanted to help his people, Garrus wants to make the galaxy safer. Jack is just a psycho.

Nohvarr wrote...

Secondly, I totally fail to see how how not killing someone is some sort of great moral, unselfish act. If that's true then I'm totally moral and unselfish, as I manage to not kill people every day.

Because it's abnormal for her, she's spent her entire life looking out for herself because she believes it was the only way to survive. Now that begins to change.

Exactly. We've all seen the power of Shepard's top left blue. It might as well be The Word Of God. You correctly state that without it, she would have killed him and that would have been normal for her. As for beginning to change, I see no evidence of that one way or the other.

Nohvarr wrote...

Hearing about the guy she fell in love with... Jack showed no sympathy there... quite the opposite, actually, when Shepard asks her about survivor's guilt she says it was the guy's own fault.

You didn't hear how she almost cracked when speaking of him, notice that she almost shed a tear? Jack has spent her life pushing people away for fear of getting hurt. Shepards line to her, about staying with her even though she's crazy, about being unable to fix her in a few conversations is one of the better moments in these games. Her problems are not easily fixed, it's going to take a while.

Yeah, she's messed up, there's no doubt. But that makes me sympathetic to her, not her sympathetic to others.

Modifié par onelifecrisis, 12 juin 2011 - 09:45 .

[C9316]

When I read blogs, I sometimes imagine what that person sounds like as they write this. Long story short, I'm now deaf. I do agree that the female squadmates, except tali were more or less over sexualized but everything else just put a bad mental image of feminism in my mind.

[Phaedon]

I read the posts, extremist in my opinion.

Has a few valid points, manages to cover them with a bunch of invalid and completely biased ones.

[Chewin]

Blue_2 wrote...
Chewin3, I just wanna say that I love you.

Ty. I feel all warm and fuzzy now.

[Nohvarr]

[quote]onelifecrisis wrote...

[quote]Nohvarr wrote...

[quote]onelifecrisis wrote...

Letting the guy on her LM go? You can't be serious? Firstly, she only lets the guy go during her LM when top-left-blued by Shepard, it's not something she does of her own accord. [/quote]

And Wrex only backs down during ME 1 for the same reason. She needed a little help making the right decision, not uncommon in this game. Heck Garrus was about to kill someone until Shepard intervened.[/quote]

And that has what to do with Jack?[/quote]

You point out that she Only let's the guy go because of Shepard, I then poing out the same is true of other characters in the series so holding this against her isn't particularly valid.


[quote]Nohvarr wrote...


[quote]Secondly, I totally fail to see how how not killing someone is some sort of great moral, unselfish act. If that's true then I'm totally moral and unselfish, as I manage to not kill people every day.[/quote]

Because it's abnormal for her, she's spent her entire life looking out for herself because she believes it was the only way to survive. Now that begins to change.[/quote]

Exactly. We've all seen the power of Shepard's top left blue. It might as well be The Word Of God. You correctly state that without it, she would have killed him and that would have been normal for her. As for beginning to change, I see no evidence of that one way or the other.[/quote]

So that scene where she lays down in her bed, closes her eyes and talks about how she's not going to be bound by her past means nothing as far as character growth/development?

[mopotter]

Massadonious1 wrote...

eldav wrote...
Just look at Ashleys new character design, they have completly made her to a standard sex object.

http://social.biowar...3/index/7615138

This is good news.  Thank you.

[Ghost Warrior]

Phaedon wrote...

I read the posts, extremist in my opinion.

Has a few valid points, manages to cover them with a bunch of invalid and completely biased ones.

Pretty much,yes.

[Volus Warlord]

I don't understand how ass and boobs with legs and a head is oversexualized.

[TheKillerAngel]

Phaedon wrote...

I read the posts, extremist in my opinion.

Has a few valid points, manages to cover them with a bunch of invalid and completely biased ones.

I think that summarizes my opinion too.

[lazuli]

And here we have a positive feedback loop.

There are merits in analyzing the influences of patriarchy on video games, as with any other media. It helps to be aware of the forces at work in a given culture, lest you be manipulated by them.

[Les_Carver]

No disrespect, but wundergeek sucks.
-First, if she wants to be taken seriously at least she should write with some protocol and solid arguments, she writes in such a lame way that is even annoying to read. She should also, in order to justify her wannabe feminist rant, prove that she's read something at a higher level than "Twilight", how about some actual feminist studies for starters? how about she proves she knows what she's talking about? does wundergeek even knows who Virginia Woolf is? I very much doubt it.

-Second, the images she posted -specially the ones regarding Jack and Samara- are so random (and even captured in moments that doesn't remain on screen more than half a second) and just whine about something feminists actually approve! The freedom a woman has to dress herself however the hell she wants! PERIOD. Stupid contradiction that just keeps showing the brainless, rabid, desperate need to prove a point she doesn't even knows.

-Third, ME is a game and it has to appeal to various fractions of the public to sell (different genders, sexual orientation, musical tastes etc.). Has anyone ever complained in the same way about the "stereotypes" BioWare uses to make their male characters attractive to female fans?

There's much more that could be exposed as weak points of her rant, but honestly I think this is enough to prove that she and her loose "arguments" doesn't gather the minimal criteria to be worthy of reading seriously. Waste of my five minutes and yours.
Cheers.