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A feminist blogger rips into the character designs of Miranda, Samara, and Jack (and other things)


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#401
Heimdall

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Em23 wrote...

"According to the codex, some species – the Salarians, Krogans, and Turians – have males and females – we just don’t ever see the females. For the Salarians, a complex “social code” revolving around reproduction means that very few females are produced and are all kept on the home world for breeding purposes. And for the Krogans, it’s even worse; because of the genophage, female Krogan are kept on the homeworld and any that have proven fertility are fought over as prizes of war. So two of the most prominent races essentially have their women being sexual/reproductive slaves. That’s just… great. Really progressive of you, BioWare."

I'll have to check out the codex myself then.....

  Actually, though the Salarian females rarely leave the homeworld, it is out of tradition and respect and their sheer scarcity, not purely breeding by a mile.  Females tend to hold a great deal of political power in their society while male salarians almost never rise to great political standing with the notable exception of the concil representative.  The society is near matriarchal on the homeworld apparently.  This is all in the codex...

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 13 juin 2011 - 12:50 .


#402
mopotter

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clerkenwell wrote...

I always find internet discussions of feminism to be fascinating, often a little horrifying. It's been my observation that the general awareness of what feminist ideas are (and how widely those ideas vary) is pretty darn low. But no one has any trouble dismissing feminists en masse, calling them stupid or ****s or what have you. The main point that I think a lot of people would benefit from realizing is that most feminists regard gender inequality/objectification of women to be a self-perpetuating problem; the situations/products/characters/ideas that it creates in turn normalize inequality and objectification, paving the way for more material that is offensive in their eyes. What this means, is that for many feminists, Miranda's ass isn't just a symptom of the problem, in many ways it IS the problem, as are Jack's boob straps and Samara's cleavage and so on and so forth.

I think that there is a degree of validity to that perspective, but ultimately it leads to a way of viewing society that requires examination of everything in terms of its relationship to gender inequality. This, I think, can be a problem. Should all art be feminist-conscious? I would say no, I would say that is an unrealistic expectation. And yet many feminists can't NOT see the world that way; it is the lens through which they view the world. And that's fine. We all have our lens. But it's unfortunate that some people will never be able to appreciate what some art has to offer because of where it fails to address or live up to their world view.

The really ironic thing with this blogger, however, is that her feminist lens seems to be preventing her from engaging with the characters who best address certain feminist issues.

Let's take Miranda, for example. First of all, I agree with her skin-deep analysis. Miranda is the clearest example of deliberately designed male eye-candy yet found in a Bioware game. I hope she keeps that title. But if you can look past that, and examine Miranda's CHARACTER from a feminist perspective, something rather interesting emerges. Miranda herself can be seen as a microcosm or allegory of the feminist "narrative" (so to speak). She was literally crafted to perfection (or man's vision of female perfection) by a man, and not just any man, but her literal patriarch. A man who then keeps her captive, tells her what she can and cannot do, and isolates her from the rest of the world. Ultimately, she breaks free from her confinement to become a strong, self-possessed, and empowered individual. And when the man tries to do the same thing to someone else, she swoops in to liberate her, her literal sister, and commits herself to never permitting the man to take control of their lives again.

And what about Jack? I couldn't disagree more with the blogger's assessment of Jack. First of all, she doesn't conform at all to the typical standard of feminine beauty. Yes the boob straps are pretty absurd, but I don't see how one could construe Jack as being sexualized in the game itself. Yes, it's mentioned that she has a casual attitude towards sex, a trait that is very consistent with her character as a whole. We learn through talking with her that in the past she has been objectified, time and time again, both sexually and as an object of scientific curiosity, but the game itself treats her wholly as subject, and her development arc is all about Shepard being the first person to finally treat her as a person and not a thing to be used for killing or sex. It's true that she has done horrible things and his little if any moral compass. But why is she like that? It's because of the way she's been treated, the systematic objectification of her being, a tool, or at best a wild animal kept on a leash. And in the game you can help her to break down that complex by showing her what its like to be treated as a person, a journey that is obviously going to be fraught with intense emotion. And yet, the blogger objects to her showing vulnerability? Honestly, if there's any character in Mass Effect that I would think that a feminist should care for and empathize with, it's Jack.

Well, sorry for the wall of text that I'm sure most people will simply scroll right past. :P For the record, I'm a straight male feminist.


I read it.  :)  and I'll have to think about it.  I do agree with parts of it.  I just don't like to generalize that all feminist should do this or that.  

I consider myself a feminist, I believe in equal pay for equal work, the usual stuff.   I'm pretty sure that's one of many reasons why I like playing female Shepard and helping Mariand and Jack.  I don't have to look beyond the idea that I can help them, tell Marianda that her worth is in more than her looks and and tell Jack that she can be more than she is, and not have it be a romance track line.  

#403
Cornelius119

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I find it so hilarious that a feminist spent all day drawing arrows at characters breast's and asses in paint!

#404
Ginen

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clerkenwell wrote...

I always find internet discussions of feminism to be fascinating, often a little horrifying. It's been my observation that the general awareness of what feminist ideas are (and how widely those ideas vary) is pretty darn low. But no one has any trouble dismissing feminists en masse, calling them stupid or ****s or what have you. The main point that I think a lot of people would benefit from realizing is that most feminists regard gender inequality/objectification of women to be a self-perpetuating problem; the situations/products/characters/ideas that it creates in turn normalize inequality and objectification, paving the way for more material that is offensive in their eyes. What this means, is that for many feminists, Miranda's ass isn't just a symptom of the problem, in many ways it IS the problem, as are Jack's boob straps and Samara's cleavage and so on and so forth.

I think that there is a degree of validity to that perspective, but ultimately it leads to a way of viewing society that requires examination of everything in terms of its relationship to gender inequality. This, I think, can be a problem. Should all art be feminist-conscious? I would say no, I would say that is an unrealistic expectation. And yet many feminists can't NOT see the world that way; it is the lens through which they view the world. And that's fine. We all have our lens. But it's unfortunate that some people will never be able to appreciate what some art has to offer because of where it fails to address or live up to their world view.

The really ironic thing with this blogger, however, is that her feminist lens seems to be preventing her from engaging with the characters who best address certain feminist issues.

Let's take Miranda, for example. First of all, I agree with her skin-deep analysis. Miranda is the clearest example of deliberately designed male eye-candy yet found in a Bioware game. I hope she keeps that title. But if you can look past that, and examine Miranda's CHARACTER from a feminist perspective, something rather interesting emerges. Miranda herself can be seen as a microcosm or allegory of the feminist "narrative" (so to speak). She was literally crafted to perfection (or man's vision of female perfection) by a man, and not just any man, but her literal patriarch. A man who then keeps her captive, tells her what she can and cannot do, and isolates her from the rest of the world. Ultimately, she breaks free from her confinement to become a strong, self-possessed, and empowered individual. And when the man tries to do the same thing to someone else, she swoops in to liberate her, her literal sister, and commits herself to never permitting the man to take control of their lives again.

And what about Jack? I couldn't disagree more with the blogger's assessment of Jack. First of all, she doesn't conform at all to the typical standard of feminine beauty. Yes the boob straps are pretty absurd, but I don't see how one could construe Jack as being sexualized in the game itself. Yes, it's mentioned that she has a casual attitude towards sex, a trait that is very consistent with her character as a whole. We learn through talking with her that in the past she has been objectified, time and time again, both sexually and as an object of scientific curiosity, but the game itself treats her wholly as subject, and her development arc is all about Shepard being the first person to finally treat her as a person and not a thing to be used for killing or sex. It's true that she has done horrible things and his little if any moral compass. But why is she like that? It's because of the way she's been treated, the systematic objectification of her being, a tool, or at best a wild animal kept on a leash. And in the game you can help her to break down that complex by showing her what its like to be treated as a person, a journey that is obviously going to be fraught with intense emotion. And yet, the blogger objects to her showing vulnerability? Honestly, if there's any character in Mass Effect that I would think that a feminist should care for and empathize with, it's Jack.

Well, sorry for the wall of text that I'm sure most people will simply scroll right past. :P For the record, I'm a straight male feminist.


You raise very good points. I think the term 'art' is big enough to explore important societal issues in a greater context if backed up with a comprehensive body of knowledge. Of course, there will always be debate--but generally speaking, it is for the most part healthy discourse. Men and women are socialized early in life to acclimatize to social norms--what is acceptable, what is not. But there is nothing saying, you can't be more or less of those norms. Some of the top fashion designers in the world are men for example.

The stigma of games is that they are meant for the most part escapist media. People don't necessarily want 'issues' in games. It is really up to the developer to decide if discussing such issues are relevant to their art.

Now that games are now part of the mainstream, it is quite amazing to read what people are saying about games. Not just game mechanics or better project management here, but the content.

#405
Weiser_Cain

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Cornelius119 wrote...

I find it so hilarious that a feminist spent all day drawing arrows at characters breast's and asses in paint!

I'm a feminist, I just spent all day drawing women parts. *shrugs*

#406
mopotter

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Chino 281 wrote...

No, but they would look soft. Have you ever seen Star Ocean? It doesn't matter if the guy
had an 8-pack, he would still be look like a whiny Anime character.



Please I agree, I say no to any anime characters.  I really find those characters who are supposed to be 29 and look 13 extreemly disturbing.   Let's stick with characters like Jacob, Kaiden, Zaeed and the new guy for this equal sexyness plan.  I'd include Thane and Garrus, but I really don't know what would be considered sexy for them.  Their voices work quite well for me.  

Modifié par mopotter, 13 juin 2011 - 01:06 .


#407
PiercedMonk

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It's interesting to note some of the things the blogger overlooked. Ashley's ridiculous pink armour, for example, or that Tali's design obviously intended to be be "sexy" and "exotic".

Also, while I think her criticisms of Samara and Miranda are fairly accurate, I couldn't disagree more regarding Jack. Granted, I have my biases, and I think it fairly obvious that she has hers.

#408
Cornelius119

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Weiser_Cain wrote...

Cornelius119 wrote...

I find it so hilarious that a feminist spent all day drawing arrows at characters breast's and asses in paint!

I'm a feminist, I just spent all day drawing women parts. *shrugs*


Why didn't you draw any male character's ? equality much ? "shrugs"

#409
Estelindis

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Lord Aesir wrote...

Well, I know what you mean, and I rarely play as a female Shepard, but I stil attribute it to Jack's personality.  All the rest seem less abrupt because they give an excuse ("Calibrations") but, true to her personality, Jack is more blunt and forceful.

I see what you're getting at and agree for the most part, but...  I don't know.  It seemed like quite a violent swing, even for Jack.  We were getting to be really good friends and her conversations were some of the ones I looked forward to most - and then bam, hostility.  A part of me wonders if it wasn't just an oversight by Bioware (as I think this ending to her conversation tree is the same as for when male Shep has a casual, superficial romance with her or something deeper and then breaks up).

#410
mopotter

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Estelindis wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

That's more of a flaw with the romance system in ME2 (Lack of alternate platonic conversations) in general, similar brick walls crop up with female romance characters with a male character eventually.  Jack is just more blunt because of her generally abrasive outward personality.

This is true for the most part.  That said, my Shepard didn't romance any of the male LIs (she was faithful to Kaidan) and I never felt a point of total, abrupt cutting off similar to Jack.  The others just tend to peter out.


Jack said something about thinking my female Shepard was ok and she thanked me, but she said she didn't like girl talk or something like that.  It didn't bother me, but I would like the platonic conversations to be better for all of them.  Most of my female Shepards didn't romance anyone other than Kaidan also, and I agree, the guys weren't as abrupt, but I just saw that as part of Jack's character.  

Somehow I couldn't see Jack getting together with Carra Shepard, Tali and Dr Chakwas in Kasumi's room drinking and talking about Jacob, Kaidan, KalReegar, and past lovers, though Shepard would have invited her of course.  :)

#411
Dracotamer

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I think games often make both genders too sexed up an unrealistic.

#412
Comsky159

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As a masclinist, I'm offended by the assumption that these characters are the products of male sexual fantasy. Just another example of the subversive agenda of women under the secretly supremacist feminist argument. (mostly jks)

#413
mopotter

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mrsph wrote...

Or the part where salarian females are the leaders of salarian society.


But we also don't see the Turians and they have women in the militiary.  Or at least we don't know if we've seen a female Turian.  It would have been nice if we had overheard two turians talking about the hat babe sitting at the bar.  Plus the other races that don't have any females in site.   I understand the reason, but it would have been a nice addition.

#414
mopotter

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PiercedMonk wrote...

It's interesting to note some of the things the blogger overlooked. Ashley's ridiculous pink armour, for example, or that Tali's design obviously intended to be be "sexy" and "exotic".

Also, while I think her criticisms of Samara and Miranda are fairly accurate, I couldn't disagree more regarding Jack. Granted, I have my biases, and I think it fairly obvious that she has hers.


OK while I did hate the pink armor, it was also available for any of the team, not just Ash.   I once had Wrex wear it becuase I decided he was so cool he could get away with it.  I did change it as soon as something better came up.  :)

#415
greed89

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IT Wasn't Pink Armor, It Was White with Pink Highlights, and Ash made it work

#416
Craig McDermott

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mopotter wrote...

Craig McDermott wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
Of course I'm not saying that the games developed for a female audience are made by Bioware. The two things in my post were separate. Anyway, female gamers play games like ME and DAO. And in my opinion they don't seek attention. And the gender choose is something that help Bioware of Bethesda or any other SH to cater (is this the right word?) the attention of female gamers.


Only a handful do. And I'd say most of them enjoy flaunting what cool "girl gamers" they are. They don't play the games as a hobby like men do.

Take the feminist blogger as an example. She clearly doesn't play Mass Effect because she enjoys gaming; she plays it so she can get all mad and make ridiculous attention-seeking blog posts. Chances are she is overweight and/or unattractive and is only able to achieve her required amount of attention through her blog.


And your generalizing.  I've heard quite a few guy games brag about how "cool" they and their friends are.  

Ahh the overweight card and insult.  Wow, you are batting 1000.  :) So are the male gamers the ones living in their parents basement, never been on a date and wear depends so they don't have to leave their game chair?  I do belive I've seen this on tv.   Really, how quaint and silly it is to generalize gamers.  

How often does someone have to play for it to be considered a hobby  or an obsession?  For a new game, I've gotten up two hours before work so I can play and then start playing when I get home from work with time out to help with dinner and then go back and play till I go to bed.  I have a very understanding husband who plays once in awhile.  For a game I've been playing for years, I'll get up an hour before I have to get ready for work and then play for a few hours in the evening.  Weekends just depend on what's happening.  If my husband goes fishing for the day, I'll start playing when he leaves and quit when he gets home around dark.     

I've been playing ME 1, ME 2 since they came out  I play them because I enjoy them.  But with that said, there are things in ME2 that irritate me.  I don't agree with everything the bloger said, but there were points that she included that were correct, imo.   Which is certainly worth as much as anyone elses.  ;)


I never said that there aren't fat unattractive male gamers. I said that the feminist blogger is likely fat and/or generally unattractive. Considering she is both a feminist and a gamer, the chances are extremely high.

You are part of an extreme minority if you are actually an older married woman who plays video games extensively. The fact remains that 99.9% of female gamers are just doing it for the attention.

#417
Guest_mrsph_*

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Some of the misogyny in this thread is astounding.

#418
AerisBru

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I find the underlying prejudice amusing, in regard of Miranda's appearance and new Ashley's as well. Apparently a woman can't be taken seriously and be beautiful/sexy at the same time (it makes me remember an interview that I once saw in which a female scientist said that she didn't use lipstick out of fear of being discriminated by her coworkers). Yes, there's cleavage. So what?Her rage about it is funny. I think it suits Miranda well, and she is a good character with or without the (maybe) excessive sensuality.

And I hate how people take things that are NOT to be taken so seriously (it's entertainment, a video game - even if it's a wonderful and complex one) to use as a banner for political causes or something like that. Unnerving.

(sorry if I couldn't express myself very well, since I'm not an english native speaker)

#419
TheKillerAngel

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mrsph wrote...

Some of the misogyny in this thread is astounding.


I'm looking at someone with a cartoony Asari avatar...

#420
greed89

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AerisBru wrote...

I find the underlying prejudice amusing, in regard of Miranda's appearance and new Ashley's as well. Apparently a woman can't be taken seriously and be beautiful/sexy at the same time (it makes me remember an interview that I once saw in which a female scientist said that she didn't use lipstick out of fear of being discriminated by her coworkers). Yes, there's cleavage. So what?Her rage about it is funny. I think it suits Miranda well, and she is a good character with or without the (maybe) excessive sensuality.

And I hate how people take things that are NOT to be taken so seriously (it's entertainment, a video game - even if it's a wonderful and complex one) to use as a banner for political causes or something like that. Unnerving.

(sorry if I couldn't express myself very well, since I'm not an english native speaker)


The Problom with miranda is she is appart of a military apperation, Running around in High heels and a catsuit durring a fire fight is  retarded, its comentd uppon in game

as for ashley i think its more about her going from a Cool space marine to Miranda 2.0 that has people pised

Modifié par greed89, 13 juin 2011 - 01:48 .


#421
crimzontearz

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I have to wonder

I would understand complainign about a chainmail bikini for a supposingly seasoned warrior in a fantasy setting

it is ridiculous

I understand complaining about miranda wearing a catsuit and high heels in combat..it IS ridiculous on a lore perspective regardless of how much "spacemagic" you sprinkle on it

my question is, why would Mirands not wear provoking clothes while on the normandy when she obviously uses her sex appeal as an edge? Is it so out of character? I doubt it...so if it is not out of character is it because she chooses to do so? why is THAT a problem?

or is the problem that Bioware decided to characterize her this way? if so then is any writer to blame for the use of characters that use sexualized contact/sexuality to gain an edge?

#422
Craig McDermott

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greed89 wrote...

The Problom with miranda is she is appart of a military apperation, Running around in High heels and a catsuit durring a fire fight is  retarded, its comentd uppon in game

as for ashley i think its more about her going from a Cool space marine to Miranda 2.0 that has people pised


What evidence is there that Ashley has become Miranda 2.0? Has she grown a brain since ME1?  Lettuce be reality, the only real choice was to leave Ashley's dumb ass on Virmire after she tried to kill Wrex, the best character in the game.

#423
Warlock Adam

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After reading this article...

My face was the same as Craig McDermott's picture.

Umad, arts student?

#424
Hathur

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Meh. Boys will be boys, can't begrudge them that really.. countless ages of evolution for them to "fight" against.

So long as men aren't literally holding women down in society the way they were 90+ years ago in North America and aren't denying equal rights then it's all good... if big breasted silly women in video games is what gets them off, so be it. B)

Not as if the men in video games are an accurate depiction of real men anway.. so all's fair :?

Modifié par Hathur, 13 juin 2011 - 02:32 .


#425
SkittlesKat96

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Miranda is a little oversexualized I agree but at least there is an explanation for it...
Samara and Jack are also oversexualized but its really not a massive big deal, Jack is suppose to be representing rebelliousness and stuff like that

So while I see what she is talking about (and I agree they do oversexualize so many squad mates in the Mass Effect series) I think she is overreacting a little bit