494 réponses à ce sujet

[PiercedMonk]

mopotter wrote...

PiercedMonk wrote...

It's interesting to note some of the things the blogger overlooked. Ashley's ridiculous pink armour, for example, or that Tali's design obviously intended to be be "sexy" and "exotic".

Also, while I think her criticisms of Samara and Miranda are fairly accurate, I couldn't disagree more regarding Jack. Granted, I have my biases, and I think it fairly obvious that she has hers.

OK while I did hate the pink armor, it was also available for any of the team, not just Ash.   I once had Wrex wear it becuase I decided he was so cool he could get away with it.  I did change it as soon as something better came up.  

Yeah, I had Wrex wear it too, because it's hilarious.

However, the stated aim of the blog is to explore how games could be better marketed to women. Ashley was in a lot of the promo material for the original 'Mass Effect', and she's wearing her silly armour. It's like saying, "Look, this game has a lady in it! You can tell she's a lady, because her armour has breasts and is pink!"

Now, I'm not a woman, nor am I about to generalize and assume that that all women share the same tastes, but it seems to me that having arguably the female face of the first 'Mass Effect' running about in pink armour is pandering, just a little bit.

Is that better or worse than Miranda's high heeled catsuit? I dunno. Probably better? Still, given the premise of the blog in question, I'm a bit surprised it wasn't at all mentioned.

[MissMaster]

Craig McDermott wrote...



I never said that there aren't fat unattractive male gamers. I said that the feminist blogger is likely fat and/or generally unattractive. Considering she is both a feminist and a gamer, the chances are extremely high.

You are part of an extreme minority if you are actually an older married woman who plays video games extensively. The fact remains that 99.9% of female gamers are just doing it for the attention.

I play the f*ck outta video games.

Not for attention but be cause I love gaming . But I will agree with you some what because of personal experience I have an ex-friend that only played video games because she had dick-envy and wanted to be a bro so bad. She would randomly start talking about video games when guys were around. I hopes it would get mens attention.

It was annoying as hell.

[crimzontearz]

re-watch the beginning of Mass Effect

you will notice that all the members of Ashley's unit are wearing the same color scheme..and any of your squaddies will as well should you equip them with an armor of the same make/model

and chances are that literally 10 seconds after you meet her you will change her armor to a heavy Colossus X (if you are in a NG+)

[diskoh]

Mass Effect was marketed gender-neutral. The ads were epic scenes of in-game action and those little mock-interviews with the characters.

It showed content from the game in the spirit of the game. If women like what they saw, awesome, but if not it's because they weren't interested in that type of thing, not because it was marketed to men. It would be dishonest to make ads that somehow "appeal to women" that don't reflect the spirit of the actual game that they're going to get when they buy it.

[V-rex]

mrsph wrote...

Some of the misogyny in this thread is astounding.

You said it. Unfortunatley this ALWAYS happens when a woman mentions issues like feminism or sexism on the web, we leap in to disregard and insult her utterly without even bothering to hear her out. Usually with very sexist slurs against her.
I've seen this happen way too many times now.

Anyway ot:

Oddly enough, I actually agree with a lot of her points. I think it is obnoxious the way games keep consistantly shoving sexed up women in them for the purposes of having sexed up women. I have nothing against attractive female characters in games, and I have nothing against the idea of female characters having a sexual side to them.

But in the case of say, Miranda, I never got that impression. She never came across as flirty or genuienly sexual unless you actually romance her. The supposed 'femme fatale' spends most of her time just being cold and businesslike, save for the occassional totally pointless camera shot of her behind.
The zenith of these being when she's talking about her sister's life being in danger and that she needs YOUR help to save said sister and right there when we should be making an effort to take her seriously as a character... the camera stops right on her arse. Fully framed and literally six inches away from your face, then it just pauses in place.
It's ridiculous, it makes everything she's saying be reduced to mockery. Any attempt to percieve her as an actual character instead of a transparent sex toy seems lost forever. That scene single handedly made a mockery of Miranda. It was unnecessary and it was ludicrously immature and you know damn well that they wouldn't do this for a man's loyalty mission.

I get where she's coming from when she talks about this stuff. I don't mind sexually empowered female characters who want to look attractive, I DO mind when said attractiveness is shoved into your face over and over again, even when it risks actual character growth in the process.
There's a very fine line between having a female character be sexual in essence and having a female character be sexual in terms of an object. Constantly zooming in on T&A is evidence of that. It's a shame we can't actually discuss this without the usual slurs against the women who object to it.

I also agree with her point about how we keep obsessively trying to make the female characters seem 'vulnerable'. I mean think about it, Miranda shows her 'soft side' and cries at the end of her mission, Jack shows fragility at the end of hers, Tali bursts into tears in hers and Samara becomes very fragile at the end of hers.

There's this wierd obsession with equating 'characterization' in tough female characters with being 'display weakness' (see also Metroid: Other M) and while it is certainly present in male characters from time to time, ther seem to be a lot more 'make the wimmin vulnerable' examples then males.
I mean now let's do a run down on all the male character's loyalty missions.
Jacob doesn't cry when he lets his father get arrested, he just scowls. Garrus is also only angry and vaguely confused about Sidonis and the loss of his team. Grunt just laughs it off. Mordin DOES cry when he sees the dead Krogan and Thane DOES cry when he's reuinited with his son, Legion doesn't cry because Legion can't cry and his mission isn't about a great emotional obstacle to overcome.

Ergo, of seven male missions, only TWO of them have the male in question vulnerable and tearful. Meanwhile all FOUR of the loyalty missions for Mirana, Jack, Tali and Samara have some degree of fragility to them... usually tears. If one were keen to do analysis one might consider questioning why it's common to see women be emotional but not men and what it might mean.

And yeah, you know what? I AM annoyed that so many alien races exist in the universe but the only time we ever see females of said race it's if they look like hot human women. That does actually bother me.

I don't agree with everything this woman has said but she deserves more attention and less dismissal and less, let's be honest here, arrogant and misogynistic responses. She's no radical crazy feminist, in fact I don't think such people exist. Instead I think the degree of arrogance and ignorance and blind hatred for women speaking about against what we percieve as the 'natural order of things' has resulted in us classifying ANY dislike of our pop culture from a feminist standpoint as being hysterical and overreacting.

Reading the reactions on this thread are far more obnoxious, aggressive, arrogant and hysterical then anything that woman could ever dream of writing. Stop saying she's 'giving you material to badmouth feminists' because you're doing that yourselves.

Modifié par V-rex, 13 juin 2011 - 02:54 .

[KainrycKarr]

Blogger is an idiot and does way, way more harm to her movement than good.

I suspect the Blogger would only be happy if all strippers in ME were male.

For the record...I don't think she's an idiot because she's feminist. I am all for equality. This is why I'm okay with Jacob showing his moobs, and why I was okay with the harem in DA2 having female and male "products".

I don't mind having goodies for the ladies in the game, as long as us hormonal young men(22) get our goodies too.

That doesn't, however, mean that I need to constantly see curious angles of Miranda's various cleavages every conversation. That point, I agree with.

Modifié par KainrycKarr, 13 juin 2011 - 02:57 .

[Craig McDermott]

V-rex wrote...

You said it. Unfortunatley this ALWAYS happens when a woman mentions issues like feminism or sexism on the web, we leap in to disregard and insult her utterly without even bothering to hear her out. Usually with very sexist slurs against her.
I've seen this happen way too many times now.

Why should anyone bother to hear her out?  I just looked at the pictures and laughed at how she ridiculously circled the breasts and butts of characters as if she has a valid argument. People might take her seriously if she provided something aside from femi-**** bullcrap. 

Edit: ridiculous how Bioware filters the name of a particular German fascist party from the WWII era.

V-rex wrote...
Anyway ot:

Oddly enough, I actually agree with a lot of her points. I think it is obnoxious the way games keep consistantly shoving sexed up women in them for the purposes of having sexed up women. I have nothing against attractive female characters in games, and I have nothing against the idea of female characters having a sexual side to them.

But in the case of say, Miranda, I never got that impression. She never came across as flirty or genuienly sexual unless you actually romance her. The supposed 'femme fatale' spends most of her time just being cold and businesslike, save for the occassional totally pointless camera shot of her behind.
The zenith of these being when she's talking about her sister's life being in danger and that she needs YOUR help to save said sister and right there when we should be making an effort to take her seriously as a character... the camera stops right on her arse. Fully framed and literally six inches away from your face, then it just pauses in place.
It's ridiculous, it makes everything she's saying be reduced to mockery. Any attempt to percieve her as an actual character instead of a transparent sex toy seems lost forever. That scene single handedly made a mockery of Miranda. It was unnecessary and it was ludicrously immature and you know damn well that they wouldn't do this for a man's loyalty mission.

I get where she's coming from when she talks about this stuff. I don't mind sexually empowered female characters who want to look attractive, I DO mind when said attractiveness is shoved into your face over and over again, even when it risks actual character growth in the process.
There's a very fine line between having a female character be sexual in essence and having a female character be sexual in terms of an object. Constantly zooming in on T&A is evidence of that. It's a shame we can't actually discuss this without the usual slurs against the women who object to it.

I also agree with her point about how we keep obsessively trying to make the female characters seem 'vulnerable'. I mean think about it, Miranda shows her 'soft side' and cries at the end of her mission, Jack shows fragility at the end of hers, Tali bursts into tears in hers and Samara becomes very fragile at the end of hers.

There's this wierd obsession with equating 'characterization' in tough female characters with being 'display weakness' (see also Metroid: Other M) and while it is certainly present in male characters from time to time, ther seem to be a lot more 'make the wimmin vulnerable' examples then males.
I mean now let's do a run down on all the male character's loyalty missions.
Jacob doesn't cry when he lets his father get arrested, he just scowls. Garrus is also only angry and vaguely confused about Sidonis and the loss of his team. Grunt just laughs it off. Mordin DOES cry when he sees the dead Krogan and Thane DOES cry when he's reuinited with his son, Legion doesn't cry because Legion can't cry and his mission isn't about a great emotional obstacle to overcome.

Ergo, of seven male missions, only TWO of them have the male in question vulnerable and tearful. Meanwhile all FOUR of the loyalty missions for Mirana, Jack, Tali and Samara have some degree of fragility to them... usually tears. If one were keen to do analysis one might consider questioning why it's common to see women be emotional but not men and what it might mean.

And yeah, you know what? I AM annoyed that so many alien races exist in the universe but the only time we ever see females of said race it's if they look like hot human women. That does actually bother me.

I don't agree with everything this woman has said but she deserves more attention and less dismissal and less, let's be honest here, arrogant and misogynistic responses. She's no radical crazy feminist, in fact I don't think such people exist. Instead I think the degree of arrogance and ignorance and blind hatred for women speaking about against what we percieve as the 'natural order of things' has resulted in us classifying ANY dislike of our pop culture from a feminist standpoint as being hysterical and overreacting.

Reading the reactions on this thread are far more obnoxious, aggressive, arrogant and hysterical then anything that woman could ever dream of writing. Stop saying she's 'giving you material to badmouth feminists' because you're doing that yourselves.

tl;dr

Modifié par Craig McDermott, 13 juin 2011 - 03:00 .

[V-rex]

MissMaster wrote...

I will never understand why it is anti-feminist if a woman is dressed sexy? And is proud of their bodies and flaunt it.

Because this isn't a REAL PERSON deciding to wear sexed up clothes because she WANTS to look sexy.

This is a fictitous character DESIGNED to wear sexed up clothes because the designers WANTED HER to look sexy to appeal to a male audience.

For the love of god, understand the difference!

[PiercedMonk]

V-rex wrote...

[Anyway ot:

Oddly enough, I actually agree with a lot of her points. I think it is obnoxious the way games keep consistantly shoving sexed up women in them for the purposes of having sexed up women. I have nothing against attractive female characters in games, and I have nothing against the idea of female characters having a sexual side to them.

But in the case of say, Miranda, I never got that impression. She never came across as flirty or genuienly sexual unless you actually romance her. The supposed 'femme fatale' spends most of her time just being cold and businesslike, save for the occassional totally pointless camera shot of her behind.
The zenith of these being when she's talking about her sister's life being in danger and that she needs YOUR help to save said sister and right there when we should be making an effort to take her seriously as a character... the camera stops right on her arse. Fully framed and literally six inches away from your face, then it just pauses in place.
It's ridiculous, it makes everything she's saying be reduced to mockery. Any attempt to percieve her as an actual character instead of a transparent sex toy seems lost forever. That scene single handedly made a mockery of Miranda. It was unnecessary and it was ludicrously immature and you know damn well that they wouldn't do this for a man's loyalty mission.

I get where she's coming from when she talks about this stuff. I don't mind sexually empowered female characters who want to look attractive, I DO mind when said attractiveness is shoved into your face over and over again, even when it risks actual character growth in the process.
There's a very fine line between having a female character be sexual in essence and having a female character be sexual in terms of an object. Constantly zooming in on T&A is evidence of that. It's a shame we can't actually discuss this without the usual slurs against the women who object to it.

I also agree with her point about how we keep obsessively trying to make the female characters seem 'vulnerable'. I mean think about it, Miranda shows her 'soft side' and cries at the end of her mission, Jack shows fragility at the end of hers, Tali bursts into tears in hers and Samara becomes very fragile at the end of hers.

There's this wierd obsession with equating 'characterization' in tough female characters with being 'display weakness' (see also Metroid: Other M) and while it is certainly present in male characters from time to time, ther seem to be a lot more 'make the wimmin vulnerable' examples then males.
I mean now let's do a run down on all the male character's loyalty missions.
Jacob doesn't cry when he lets his father get arrested, he just scowls. Garrus is also only angry and vaguely confused about Sidonis and the loss of his team. Grunt just laughs it off. Mordin DOES cry when he sees the dead Krogan and Thane DOES cry when he's reuinited with his son, Legion doesn't cry because Legion can't cry and his mission isn't about a great emotional obstacle to overcome.

Ergo, of seven male missions, only TWO of them have the male in question vulnerable and tearful. Meanwhile all FOUR of the loyalty missions for Mirana, Jack, Tali and Samara have some degree of fragility to them... usually tears. If one were keen to do analysis one might consider questioning why it's common to see women be emotional but not men and what it might mean.

And yeah, you know what? I AM annoyed that so many alien races exist in the universe but the only time we ever see females of said race it's if they look like hot human women. That does actually bother me.

I don't agree with everything this woman has said but she deserves more attention and less dismissal and less, let's be honest here, arrogant and misogynistic responses. She's no radical crazy feminist, in fact I don't think such people exist. Instead I think the degree of arrogance and ignorance and blind hatred for women speaking about against what we percieve as the 'natural order of things' has resulted in us classifying ANY dislike of our pop culture from a feminist standpoint as being hysterical and overreacting.

Reading the reactions on this thread are far more obnoxious, aggressive, arrogant and hysterical then anything that woman could ever dream of writing. Stop saying she's 'giving you material to badmouth feminists' because you're doing that yourselves.

Other than listing Legion as male -- though I suppose the argument could be made that it's gendered male due to its voice -- I agree whole heartedly. Well said, V-Rex.

[Shifty Assassin]

it seems she has a major obsession with assess and boobs

[diskoh]

I propose someone send the blogger these two photos and ask her which one she thinks would be better as a squadmate in Mass Effect 3.

if she picks the one on the right, then LOL. If she picks the one on the left, well that's just objectifying men!

Modifié par diskoh, 13 juin 2011 - 03:05 .

[KainrycKarr]

V-rex wrote...

MissMaster wrote...

I will never understand why it is anti-feminist if a woman is dressed sexy? And is proud of their bodies and flaunt it.

Because this isn't a REAL PERSON deciding to wear sexed up clothes because she WANTS to look sexy.

This is a fictitous character DESIGNED to wear sexed up clothes because the designers WANTED HER to look sexy to appeal to a male audience.

For the love of god, understand the difference!

And yet noone considers Jacob (muscular, attractive male wearing form-fitting clothing, shows man-boob during the romance) to be sexist.

Sexually appealing characters is not sexist.

Now, if Miranda had also been the cook, that would be sexist.

[Jonathan Shepard]

Bail_Darilar wrote...

I read these and took it with a grain of salt. People such as this blogger seem to be so caught up in certain ideals that it pervades everything around them.

This. I read through it, and she's being nit-pickier than smudboy or Zulu_DFA ever were. -shakes head- There's a reason Jack has alternate clothing. She was also in cryo-stasis. Technically, she should've been naked for the safest procedures. Her pants are the unrealistic part when she breaks out. Until she gets to the Normandy. Then... Alt. appearance DLC! 

[V-rex]

Craig McDermott wrote...
Why should anyone bother to hear her out?

Of course, when they have the power of denial on their side and the ability to ignore and disregard the opinions of anyone who isn't them, why bother?
Oh wait, because it's what a MATURE person would do, at least hear her out and consider what she's saying before just dropping standard misogynistic slurs.

I just looked at the pictures and laughed at how she ridiculously circled the breasts and butts of characters as if she has a valid argument.

Well she does. Her point is that the game is full of needless ass shots. Those ass shots are REALLY there and they KEEP SHOWING UP, she's pointing out that they are there which is valid because she has shown proof that they are there.
She is then arguing that because they are, it can be percieved as sexist.

People might take her seriously if she provided something aside from femi-**** bullcrap.

Maybe if you actually did listen to her and women pointing things out in general, you wouldn't be so quick to presume that it's bullcrap.

Like when women point out that say the hentai RAPE games from Japan are incredbily sexist, maybe if  gamers would hear them out instead of disregarding them, we'd have a better understanding of the world.

Meanwhile, if you keep ignoring and disregarding their arguments, they are going to have to make them louder and angrier to actually be heard at all.

tl;dr

Thanks for ptoving my point.

[Craig McDermott]

V-rex wrote...

MissMaster wrote...

I will never understand why it is anti-feminist if a woman is dressed sexy? And is proud of their bodies and flaunt it.

Because this isn't a REAL PERSON deciding to wear sexed up clothes because she WANTS to look sexy.

This is a fictitous character DESIGNED to wear sexed up clothes because the designers WANTED HER to look sexy to appeal to a male audience.

For the love of god, understand the difference!

It's a video game. Nobody wants to play a game with a fat, ugly love interest. And nobody cares whether or not Miranda, a fictional character, has the free will to choose her wardrobe.

[KainrycKarr]

V-rex wrote...

Craig McDermott wrote...
Why should anyone bother to hear her out?

Of course, when they have the power of denial on their side and the ability to ignore and disregard the opinions of anyone who isn't them, why bother?
Oh wait, because it's what a MATURE person would do, at least hear her out and consider what she's saying before just dropping standard misogynistic slurs.

I just looked at the pictures and laughed at how she ridiculously circled the breasts and butts of characters as if she has a valid argument.

Well she does. Her point is that the game is full of needless ass shots. Those ass shots are REALLY there and they KEEP SHOWING UP, she's pointing out that they are there which is valid because she has shown proof that they are there.
She is then arguing that because they are, it can be percieved as sexist.

People might take her seriously if she provided something aside from femi-**** bullcrap.

Maybe if you actually did listen to her and women pointing things out in general, you wouldn't be so quick to presume that it's bullcrap.

Like when women point out that say the hentai RAPE games from Japan are incredbily sexist, maybe if  gamers would hear them out instead of disregarding them, we'd have a better understanding of the world.

Meanwhile, if you keep ignoring and disregarding their arguments, they are going to have to make them louder and angrier to actually be heard at all.

tl;dr

Thanks for ptoving my point.

I consider myself quite pro women's rights; I also read three of the blogger's articles before I firmly decided she's not the most intelligent(or the most un-biased)

There are parts I agree with, but for the most part, I consider her the epitomy of a reverse-sexist. She doesn't seem to want equality; she seems to want the fanservice and the roles to be completely reversed.

Thus, I think she is a damaging member of her movement.

But, I'm sure the truth is that I'm yet another male moron that refuses to accept a woman's voice to be heard.

[V-rex]

KainrycKarr wrote...


And yet noone considers Jacob (muscular, attractive male wearing form-fitting clothing, shows man-boob during the romance) to be sexist.

Because the camera doesn't constantly zoom in on his arse, or at least not as often or as obnoxiously as Mirandas. He also doesn't walk around wearing a skin tight top that shows off his chest to a ludicrous degree. He doesn't think that a g-string and a belt on his nipples constitues 'armor'.

Sexually appealing characters is not sexist.

I agree, but if you read my above text wall, you will notice that I pointed out a fine line between 'sexually appealing' in terms of character and 'sexually appealing' in terms of objectification.
The former is a character who is attractive and sexual in personality and behavior, the latter is a character that has the camera constantly loitering on their private parts.
Even when it makes no sense contextually.

[Heimdall]

Estelindis wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Well, I know what you mean, and I rarely play as a female Shepard, but I stil attribute it to Jack's personality.  All the rest seem less abrupt because they give an excuse ("Calibrations") but, true to her personality, Jack is more blunt and forceful.

I see what you're getting at and agree for the most part, but...  I don't know.  It seemed like quite a violent swing, even for Jack.  We were getting to be really good friends and her conversations were some of the ones I looked forward to most - and then bam, hostility.  A part of me wonders if it wasn't just an oversight by Bioware (as I think this ending to her conversation tree is the same as for when male Shep has a casual, superficial romance with her or something deeper and then breaks up).

  It is, I've tried it.  If Male Shepard breaks up with Jack or has the fling, she goes to that response too.  I think it's just an automatic reaction due to being the end of the conversation line.  Probably just an unfortunate oversite.

[V-rex]

Craig McDermott wrote...

It's a video game. Nobody wants to play a game with a fat, ugly love interest. And nobody cares whether or not Miranda, a fictional character, has the free will to choose her wardrobe.

You can have an attractive female lead WITHOUT dressing her in a space bikni and zooming in on her ****** every ten seconds you know.

My point was arguing that these characters are sexually empowered is stupid, because they are not choosing to wear these clothes.

[Heimdall]

V-rex wrote...

Craig McDermott wrote...

It's a video game. Nobody wants to play a game with a fat, ugly love interest. And nobody cares whether or not Miranda, a fictional character, has the free will to choose her wardrobe.

You can have an attractive female lead WITHOUT dressing her in a space bikni and zooming in on her ****** every ten seconds you know.

My point was arguing that these characters are sexually empowered is stupid, because they are not choosing to wear these clothes.

  Use the singular, as Miranda is the only character I noticed with the camera work your talking about.  Though I'll note that she flatout admitted to using sex appeal as a tool.  Still, I don't like the camera work around her either.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 13 juin 2011 - 03:17 .

[xbox430]

I liked how she complained about breast being in the centre of the screen. If a Character is the focus they are going to be in the centre of the screen, so naturally their chest would too :|

And about Jack's chase scene, what was Bioware supposed to do? put jack on the far left of the screen away from focus? I know there is a rule of thirds but, just no. She went on complaining about Jack for being ****y then she went and complained how she had a soft side (because she's human, and has emotions, duh).

The thing i most dislike is she says that by giving them Femshep advertising, it was just Bioware throwing them a bone. I agree about Miranda though, she is trying to get me to save her sister, but all I'm seeing is her ass.

Also Slarians aren't slaves, they pretty much rule they Salarian society, And rape is rape.

I don't like her :\\ ( but you know go equality!)

Modifié par xbox430, 13 juin 2011 - 03:16 .

[Addai]

My only response is a slight nervousness at the call to see female Turians. I... rather like all the male Turians around. *hides Garrus and Gavorn behind an elcor*

Modifié par Addai67, 13 juin 2011 - 03:15 .

[Heimdall]

Addai67 wrote...

My only response is a slight nervousness at the call to see female Turians. I... rather like all the male Turians around. *hides Garrus and Gavorn behind an elcor*

  They were originally supposed to be in the first game as I recall...

[JayhartRIC]

Why is she so obsessed with these chicks breasts? There is nothing wrong with the majority of those shots. I honestly can't tell what she would want. Oh no, the character is in the middle of the screen facing the camera, boob shot!

[MissMaster]

Craig McDermott wrote...




It's a video game. Nobody wants to play a game with a fat, ugly love interest. And nobody cares whether or not Miranda, a fictional character, has the free will to choose her wardrobe.

I agree 100%

Modifié par MissMaster, 13 juin 2011 - 03:17 .