Aller au contenu

Photo

A feminist blogger rips into the character designs of Miranda, Samara, and Jack (and other things)


  • Ce sujet est fermé Ce sujet est fermé
494 réponses à ce sujet

#201
Winterfly

Winterfly
  • Members
  • 628 messages

SoulfulStarfish wrote...

I really don't understand what the writer means by....

"Still, it was disappointing that Miranda’s mission was stereotyped, even if it was entertaining and better written than some of the other missions."


Oh I guess every woman got a father wanting her to run some evil corp I guess. Standard complain. I never heard a woman complain on a hunky male in a movie but as soon as some woman shows her sex appeal some feminist cries. Jealous much?

I so gonna complain on  Shepard and such now :( His so manly and im not

#202
The Elder King

The Elder King
  • Members
  • 19 630 messages

jtav wrote...

But we never see those salarians or krogan. Their power is theoretical. It's still men who do the things that matter.


But she's not talking about the presence of females of this species in-game, because otherwise she could mention the Turian too. (or the Elcor, the Volus, the Batarian, and the Drells) I think she talked about the "lore" of ME-ME2.

#203
taigin

taigin
  • Members
  • 292 messages
Imo the females in ME2 are very much comic book heroine style (well males too). My biggest gripe is the high heels, spandex and exposed skin in space. Especially since it's inconsistent with the style from the first game. I seriously wanted Miranda and Samara to die in the sm just because of those high heels (and i shouldn't have to pay extra money to fix Miranda). If they want to wear them around the ship, fine with me.

I think ME gives a wipe range of different styles and personalizations. Not every female character has a spandex suit and high heels. With Miranda, her appearance fits with how her character is presented. With Samara... well i have no idea why a sexless monk would decide to wear such cleavage. It's not very functional as a combat suit. I think Jack's appeareance fits her character very well.

What makes it all so boring is how obvious the "sexy" is made in ME2. Personally I find Shepard in her combat suit and boots to be the sexiest character in ME, her hard ass personality and and strong character makes any type of overly sexualized clothing redunant.

No high heels in space please!!

#204
darknoon5

darknoon5
  • Members
  • 1 596 messages

Maria Caliban wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

Niniva wrote...

Duke Nukem Forever would make her head explode.

Ahaha, I would pay to see her rage over it :D

She written about DNF several times.

I'll have to go read them.

On a more serious note, the whole "she's just jealous of them" stuff is a bit far...can't people just keep to analysis and discussion?

#205
Seagloom

Seagloom
  • Members
  • 7 094 messages

Lenimph wrote...

... *facepalms*

I cannot believe the person who wrote this blog went through all the effort to note all those screenies. Is she really paying that much attention to where Miranda's ****** are hanging out and the deminsions of Samara's cleavage.

Overcompensating much?

My opinion:
A woman can wear whatever she wants to wear and shouldn't be looked down upon for it. There is far too much emphasis on how a woman presents herself in the world today.


Except she was not referring to real women. She was referring to virtual women designed by men. And yes I know Miranda was based on a real world actress, but her proportions were obviously idealized to fit a certain standard of beauty. A real woman can make the decision to present herself however she sees fit. A character in a game does whatever the writers and designers want them to do. Therefore no amount of "this is in-character for Y NPC" works as believable justification.

In the case of Wundergeek, I do disagree with her at times, but on the whole I think she has a keen eye for picking up nuances that are not immediately obvious. She has an artist's background which gives her a good understanding of human anatomy and visual cues the average person might miss. Did she go overboard with this article? Probably? I doubt the cinematic designers were consciously going for a sexy pose every time. I am sure there were instances with Miranda and Samara that they *were* shooting for sexy poses, but rest were probably the result of subconscious decision making.

In any case, that blog's focus is primarily on studying the visual portrayal of women in games and game advertisements.

#206
Winterfly

Winterfly
  • Members
  • 628 messages
Seriously, You women complain a lot on "oversexualized females" but have you seriously seen how the males look? Seriously?

Also, would we want a bunch of fat ****s with acne run around burping and farting? Males and females looking like trailer living, Mcdonalds eating 24/7 unemployed Shepards.

#207
TheTouch

TheTouch
  • Members
  • 117 messages
I want to preface this by saying that I'm a guy.

While I agree that women in Mass Effect, and games in general, seem more overtly sexualised than men, and that this is something that probably does help to subtly (and often not so subtly) reinforce notions that women are objects to be won, rather than individuals to be respected, I do think the blogger is over-reacting.

Every character in Mass Effect has a personality, and it largely shines through in their loyalty missions.  Miranda caring about her sister and Jack revisiting the Cerberus 'school' really show that the characters are well-rounded.  The romances also demonstrate this, particularly now that they have the less-explicit ending cinematics.

The women in Mass Effect aren't just there for titilation.  They're fully rounded characters in their own right.  Are their sexual assets on show more than the men?  Yes.  Is this a problem?  Yes.  But I think it's clear that the blogger wanted to be offended.  She bangs on about having a degree in fine arts, and how her standards are higher because of it, but I think it's clear that she hasn't raelly explored the characters.

Jack is such a despicable human being – she’s completely selfish, amoral, and totally unsympathetic. I fail to see the appeal of Jack as a romance, or even as a quick roll in the hay.

Clearly this is bull****, and it's only possible to come to this conclusion if all you've done is scanned the surface of the character.  The Jack romance is one of the most satisfying, as she has to overcome all the barriers that she has had to build up over the years just to make it through the day.  She is revealed as a deep human being who wears her rough tough exterior like a suit of armour.  But the blogger can't see that because she has decided to get pissed off at Jack's 'OMG BEWBS' appearance.

Modifié par TheTouch, 12 juin 2011 - 09:05 .


#208
GreenDragon37

GreenDragon37
  • Members
  • 1 593 messages

mineralica wrote...

1) Miranda has irritating shots focusing on ass? Jacob has them too. Moreover, let's remember a vid about him in LotSB, or romance scene - everything that shown about poor guy is his abs. Equality with Miranda? Yes.
2) Samara runs around with half of her chest exposed? Thane does that too. Even more, Thane was _designed_ to appeal to female audience. Equality in sexualising? Yes.
3) Jack has ridiculous outfit that only underlines her sexuality? Garrus has a hole in armour which accents his badassery (and in several cases badassery=sexuality). He also keeps that stupid hole after LM and change of outfit. Equality? Yes.
4) All strippers are asari? Well, asari first found the Citadel and everyone knows asari. Not surprising little percent of aliens is aroused by species known only for about 30 years, maybe humans also don't enjoy the idea to dance before aliens.
This lack of comparison and little "didn't checked" moments like "Shephard" and "Sarin" make me - both a woman and a feminist - very, very sad. Who speaks about equality considering only treatment of one side?


This, right here.

#209
onelifecrisis

onelifecrisis
  • Members
  • 2 829 messages

TheTouch wrote...

Jack is such a despicable human being – she’s completely selfish, amoral, and totally unsympathetic. I fail to see the appeal of Jack as a romance, or even as a quick roll in the hay.

Clearly this is bull****, and it's only possible to come to this conclusion if all you've done is scanned the surface of the character.  The Jack romance is one of the most satisfying, as she has to overcome all the barriers that she has had to build up over the years just to make it through the day.  She is revealed as a deep human being who wears her rough tough exterior like a suit of armour.  But the blogger can't see that because she has decided to get pissed off at Jack's 'OMG BEWBS' appearance.


She described Jack as "selfish, amoral, and unsympathetic". You disagreed, but then failed to provide any counterweight at all.

Name one time when Jack is unselfish.
Name one time when Jack is moral.
Name one time when Jack is sympathetic.

#210
Jessihatt

Jessihatt
  • Members
  • 752 messages

Lady Catastrophe wrote...

I love it when members of my gender talk crap.


Same.. <_<

#211
AtreiyaN7

AtreiyaN7
  • Members
  • 8 396 messages
You know what annoys me most? The fact that she listed KotOR 2 when Obsidian actually developed it. I'm a female gamer, and I disagreed with most of it (do agree on a gratuitous number of Miranda shots). Miranda's loyalty mission was well written, period. I don't get how it was "stereotypical" - she was rescuing her sister and trying to keep her from being their father's next great experiment. Or is it supposed to be stereotypical in that the tough, competent female showed some vulnerability when it came to her family? As for Jack, she'd had a rough life, and I think her appearance was a form of armor/self-empowerment. Whether or not she was attractive to guys, she was interesting as a character even if I didn't exactly want to hang out with her. She's abrasive and tough, but it's pretty obvious why she turned out the way that she did. The romance with maleShep...THAT I could see as being a stereotypical story - a bad girl who's really looking for love melts for heroic maleShep after he cracks her hard exterior.

As far as marketing goes, eh, in all the BW games I've ever played (since BG), I've had the opportunity to play as a female. I think our romances are comparable to those that male players get on the whole. I don't really need to see a femShep plastered all over the place to be convinced to buy the game, personally, but if others want it then that's their preogative. On the minority thing...as someone who's half-Chinese and actually is part of the minority, I really don't actually care about seeing Asian characters or other minorities portrayed in the advertising. The ads should be about selling the game, the story and the characters, not how much face time each minority gets. If there were a lack of minorities in the game itself, THAT is what I would have a problem with in something like ME, but we've seen blacks, Asians (heck, Jade Empire...pretty much all Asian :P ), hispanics, etc. Also, in the world of ME, most humans are mixed race in their era if I'm not mistaken, and there seems to be plenty of diversity.

The only other thing I would argue over is the Jacob loyalty mission. I viewed it as being a riff on Lord of the Flies. I don't think they were using rape particularly gratuitously, and you certainly don't see it happen in front of you. I viewed it as an example of men descending into savage, base behavior and what can happen when power thoroughly corrupts someone who was probably never up to the task of commanding in the first place, but hey, that's just me.

#212
Lady Catastrophe

Lady Catastrophe
  • Members
  • 721 messages

Seagloom wrote...
In the case of Wundergeek, I do disagree with her at times, but on the whole I think she has a keen eye for picking up nuances that are not immediately obvious. She has an artist's background which gives her a good understanding of human anatomy and visual cues the average person might miss. Did she go overboard with this article? Probably? I doubt the cinematic designers were consciously going for a sexy pose every time. I am sure there were instances with Miranda and Samara that they *were* shooting for sexy poses, but rest were probably the result of subconscious decision making.


Please allow me to disagree regarding the line in bold by saying that I have a similar background and I don't think that that has anything to do with it at all.

She just seems to me like a typical over-opinionated attention seeker.

Modifié par Lady Catastrophe, 12 juin 2011 - 09:13 .


#213
PMC65

PMC65
  • Members
  • 3 279 messages

Winterfly wrote...

Seriously, You women complain a lot on "oversexualized females" but have you seriously seen how the males look? Seriously?

Also, would we want a bunch of fat ****s with acne run around burping and farting? Males and females looking like trailer living, Mcdonalds eating 24/7 unemployed Shepards.


To be honest, I wouldn't shell out .02 for that ... If I am paying for a video game I want the people to be visually pleasing, both male & female. Please no Ron Jeremy look-alike in the game. Image IPB 

#214
Winterfly

Winterfly
  • Members
  • 628 messages

onelifecrisis wrote...

TheTouch wrote...

Jack is such a despicable human being – she’s completely selfish, amoral, and totally unsympathetic. I fail to see the appeal of Jack as a romance, or even as a quick roll in the hay.

Clearly this is bull****, and it's only possible to come to this conclusion if all you've done is scanned the surface of the character.  The Jack romance is one of the most satisfying, as she has to overcome all the barriers that she has had to build up over the years just to make it through the day.  She is revealed as a deep human being who wears her rough tough exterior like a suit of armour.  But the blogger can't see that because she has decided to get pissed off at Jack's 'OMG BEWBS' appearance.


She described Jack as "selfish, amoral, and unsympathetic". You disagreed, but then failed to provide any counterweight at all.

Name one time when Jack is unselfish.
Name one time when Jack is moral.
Name one time when Jack is sympathetic.


Well consider why she is like she is god damnit or try her romance and one probably see beyond that shell. Same with dumb arse Miranda who is bossy and like to show off her damn body which she seemingly states a bit but romance her and she also shows herself being bit human.

Shepard, Female Shep is pretty awesome to and take no ****.

#215
greed89

greed89
  • Members
  • 514 messages

onelifecrisis wrote...

TheTouch wrote...

Jack is such a despicable human being – she’s completely selfish, amoral, and totally unsympathetic. I fail to see the appeal of Jack as a romance, or even as a quick roll in the hay.

Clearly this is bull****, and it's only possible to come to this conclusion if all you've done is scanned the surface of the character.  The Jack romance is one of the most satisfying, as she has to overcome all the barriers that she has had to build up over the years just to make it through the day.  She is revealed as a deep human being who wears her rough tough exterior like a suit of armour.  But the blogger can't see that because she has decided to get pissed off at Jack's 'OMG BEWBS' appearance.


She described Jack as "selfish, amoral, and unsympathetic". You disagreed, but then failed to provide any counterweight at all.

Name one time when Jack is unselfish.
: Letting the guy Go during her LM, Holding the Barrier
Name one time when Jack is moral. Again letting the Guy Go during her LM,
Name one time when Jack is sympathetic. Her LM, When you hear about the guy she fell in love with, During the Climax of her Romance



#216
Seagloom

Seagloom
  • Members
  • 7 094 messages

Lady Catastrophe wrote...

Please allow me to disagree regarding the line in bold by saying that I have a similar background and I don't think that that has anything to do with it at all.

She just seems to me like a typical over-opinionated attention seeker.


I am no artist, but I have a friend who is an artist and he often makes the same sort of observations. Well, not in the gender specific sense she does but more generally. If I am wrong there, I am wrong. Regardless, I do not know if running a blog most people have never heard of makes one an attention seeker. Her comments section usually has as many dissenting opinions as feet kissing fan accolades too.

For my part, I think she makes clever observations at times. I do not always agree with her, though; and do not have her blog bookmarked since it rarely raises any new thought provoking questions, or observations I did not make myself. I like what she is trying to do, but my interests extend beyond female portrayals in games. That is only one of the subjects that concern me. It is why I prefer the Border House blog. There is more variation.

Modifié par Seagloom, 12 juin 2011 - 09:25 .


#217
Fugiz

Fugiz
  • Members
  • 213 messages

SoulfulStarfish wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

SoulfulStarfish wrote...

I really don't understand what the writer means by....

"Still, it was disappointing that Miranda’s mission was stereotyped, even if it was entertaining and better written than some of the other missions."


A genetically engeneered "perfect woman" created from the modified DNA of a man, who is trying to create a better life for her similarly genetically engineered twin sister, who is several years younger by the way, is such an obvious stereotype. Damn Bioware for creating such nonsense.


Thank you for the explanation.


Its so cliché, why didnt I see this..

#218
Guest_Guest12345_*

Guest_Guest12345_*
  • Guests
I only read the first page, I don't want to sound dismissive, but is the entire point of this blog just about the clothing and camera angles? I did a control+f for mentions of Samara and it was exclusively about her outfit and camera angles.

IMO, Samara is one of the greatest fictional characters ever imagined, regardless of gender, and that opinion has absolutely nothing to do with her outfit or the camera angles in her cinematics.

Anyway, I do dislike the clothing and sexualization of ME, and all recent Bioware products, but it is not enough to ruin a character for me. Isabela would probably be the closest with her stupidly oversized bust, but I still like her personality, dialog and voice acting. I just dislike the character model.

#219
GreenDragon37

GreenDragon37
  • Members
  • 1 593 messages
Also, why do women never complain about good looking guys in the media? You don't see men complaining as much as some women when it comes to the over-sexuality of the same gender. People want to see attractive people. This goes both ways.

#220
Ieldra

Ieldra
  • Members
  • 25 188 messages

SoulfulStarfish wrote...
I really don't understand what the writer means by....

"Still, it was disappointing that Miranda’s mission was stereotyped, even if it was entertaining and better written than some of the other missions."

She's criticizing that Miranda's loyalty mission deals with an emotionally vulnerable aspect of her, which is a stereotype often used for women and often used to make otherwise competent women palatable to the less enlightened parts of the male audience.
I agree with her in one thing: while I like her LM, there is too little the game shows us of "Miranda the badass operative". I'd have liked to see more of Miranda as she was near the start of the game. 

#221
Chewin

Chewin
  • Members
  • 8 478 messages
I'm fairly disappointed at this feminist blogger. I thought her blog would be valid and eminent, but it was not.

Okay, I get that she complains over something she doesn’t like what she sees, and this being oversexual females showing their cleavage. This annoys her very much, so she makes an article highlighting every single example of sexism showing in ME2 with screenshots and point out all the ways it disgusts her. What the hell? So how would you want the women to stand in front of the camera?

It seems to me like there is no way for them to present their female characters without somehow, in your eyes, emphasizing their boobs. If they’re standing sideways? Boob shot. Looking up at them? Boob shot. Looking down? Boob shot. Are they in the middle of the screen? So are their boobs. Boob shot. Are they standing up straight? They’re pushing out their boobs. Boob shot. Leaning over? Boob shot as well. I understand complaints about what you call “boob perspective” and about shots that look down a character’s top, but looking at the variety of angles and poses you are condemning here, it would appear that the only safe shot would be as follows:

1. Standing straight, but not TOO straight.

2. Character looking straight at the screen, so as to avoid emphasizing the boobs via a side angle.

3. The camera angle running parallel to the ground, at a level somewhere
between the breasts and the top of the head, to avoid looking up at the
bottom or down at the tops of the breasts.

4. The character must be off-center, so that her breasts aren’t in the middle of the shot with her.

What I'm trying to say is, I just feel like there is no way they could have made their cut scenes fit the criteria you are giving without drastically reducing their available options.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Now, what's on here take on Jack, Samara, Miri and Tali? I don't get it. Again the boob shot here and there. They do have character, you know. That's why they have their 'unique sexual style'.

- Jack hit me in a different way than maybe her characterization was supposed to… Everything about how she is dressed and acts says “Pay attention to and FEAR me! Rawr!” So she came across to me as very troubled. I did not find her sexual at all, but rather felt protective and maternal towards her, wanting her to see life in a different way. I mean, she wields sexuality as a weapon – but she is not attractive. As I see it, she has gone out of her way to not be attractive – her hair is gone, her tattoos are not designed to please the viewer, her breasts are almost totally exposed but small and actually visually deemphasized by the tattoos and the straps. Her breasts do not visually stand out nearly as much as Samara’s (there is little to no color contrast).

- Okay, I agree that Miranda can be a little 'problematic'. I saw it as part of the “striving to be too perfect to too many people too much of the time” thing she suffers from in her life. I was left wanting her to know she did not have to do
that, her competency was enough. She talked about being designed for hotness enough that I felt like it was impressed to her by her father often enough for that hotness itself had become baggage, a detriment to
her deciding her own fate. So put down short, Miri was a stereotypically hot Cheerleader, feel sorry for her cuz she has to be perfect and hot all the time. But her character was (thank God see at least said it herself) very good written, and that we can see from her loyalty mission.

- You could discribe Tali as a geek girl hidden behind big glasses/glass plate, even more insecure than the boy geek, which she basically is. Particularly gets on my nerves because her characterization is so heavy handed with it.

- When it comes down to Samara, well okay, I cant really say much there.

Modifié par Chewin3, 12 juin 2011 - 09:31 .


#222
SamT3N7

SamT3N7
  • Members
  • 241 messages
I really need to thank her for reducing Ash once again to a "xenophobic jerk". That was really needed.

#223
onelifecrisis

onelifecrisis
  • Members
  • 2 829 messages

greed89 wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

TheTouch wrote...

Jack is such a despicable human being – she’s completely selfish, amoral, and totally unsympathetic. I fail to see the appeal of Jack as a romance, or even as a quick roll in the hay.

Clearly this is bull****, and it's only possible to come to this conclusion if all you've done is scanned the surface of the character.  The Jack romance is one of the most satisfying, as she has to overcome all the barriers that she has had to build up over the years just to make it through the day.  She is revealed as a deep human being who wears her rough tough exterior like a suit of armour.  But the blogger can't see that because she has decided to get pissed off at Jack's 'OMG BEWBS' appearance.


She described Jack as "selfish, amoral, and unsympathetic". You disagreed, but then failed to provide any counterweight at all.

Name one time when Jack is unselfish.
: Letting the guy Go during her LM, Holding the Barrier
Name one time when Jack is moral. Again letting the Guy Go during her LM,
Name one time when Jack is sympathetic. Her LM, When you hear about the guy she fell in love with, During the Climax of her Romance


Letting the guy on her LM go? You can't be serious? Firstly, she only lets the guy go during her LM when top-left-blued by Shepard, it's not something she does of her own accord. Secondly, I totally fail to see how how not killing someone is some sort of great moral, unselfish act. If that's true then I'm totally moral and unselfish, as I manage to not kill people every day.

Holding the barrier is unselfish? You mean on the SM? How do you figure?

Hearing about the guy she fell in love with... Jack showed no sympathy there... quite the opposite, actually, when Shepard asks her about survivor's guilt she says it was the guy's own fault.

#224
Schneidend

Schneidend
  • Members
  • 5 768 messages

SamT3N7 wrote...

I really need to thank her for reducing Ash once again to a "xenophobic jerk". That was really needed.


Which only further proves the blogger in question has no idea what she's talking about. Anybody who honestly has that opinion of Ash simply wasn't paying attention.

#225
greed89

greed89
  • Members
  • 514 messages

onelifecrisis wrote...

greed89 wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

TheTouch wrote...

Jack is such a despicable human being – she’s completely selfish, amoral, and totally unsympathetic. I fail to see the appeal of Jack as a romance, or even as a quick roll in the hay.

Clearly this is bull****, and it's only possible to come to this conclusion if all you've done is scanned the surface of the character.  The Jack romance is one of the most satisfying, as she has to overcome all the barriers that she has had to build up over the years just to make it through the day.  She is revealed as a deep human being who wears her rough tough exterior like a suit of armour.  But the blogger can't see that because she has decided to get pissed off at Jack's 'OMG BEWBS' appearance.


She described Jack as "selfish, amoral, and unsympathetic". You disagreed, but then failed to provide any counterweight at all.

Name one time when Jack is unselfish.
: Letting the guy Go during her LM, Holding the Barrier
Name one time when Jack is moral. Again letting the Guy Go during her LM,
Name one time when Jack is sympathetic. Her LM, When you hear about the guy she fell in love with, During the Climax of her Romance


Letting the guy on her LM go? You can't be serious? Firstly, she only lets the guy go during her LM when top-left-blued by Shepard, it's not something she does of her own accord. Secondly, I totally fail to see how how not killing someone is some sort of great moral, unselfish act. If that's true then I'm totally moral and unselfish, as I manage to not kill people every day.

Holding the barrier is unselfish? You mean on the SM? How do you figure?

Hearing about the guy she fell in love with... Jack showed no sympathy there... quite the opposite, actually, when Shepard asks her about survivor's guilt she says it was the guy's own fault.

-_- are you serious with this?