117 réponses à ce sujet

[GreenDragon37]

Schneidend wrote...

Saren didn't beat indoctrination whatsoever. He was very much indoctrinated. Sovereign just used a more subtle touch on Saren to keep the Spectre as capable as possible.

What's more, Saren was indoctrinated while the Council remained entirely clueless. Saren is an extremely influential person himself, considered a hero by many prior to the revelation of his treachery in ME1. TIM is also somewhat of an enigma. Nobody outside of Cerberus knows he's the leader of Cerberus. He likely has several identities he uses for attending social functions and sleeping with galactic celebrities.

Stories change over time. They may not have even thought of having TIM get indoctrinated until ME2 had already shipped, if indeed he has even been indoctrinated at all.

I agree with this. Saren was Indoctrinated, Soverign didn't push it on him that much because it would have turned him into a mindless husk.

Also, the point of Indoctrination is that you don't know. That's why it worked in the past. People sold their species out to the Reapers. Heck, maybe he got Indoctrinated sometime between ME 2 and ME 3.

[Warkupo]

While we are mentioning it; I didn't think DA2 was that bad. If it wasn't the sequel to something far greater I might have even loved it.

[GreenDragon37]

Warkupo wrote...

While we are mentioning it; I didn't think DA2 was that bad. If it wasn't the sequel to something far greater I might have even loved it.

Haven't played it. Just got DA:O. I'm stuck on the fight with the Archdemon and I forgot to kill one of the generals. Ugh!

[DocLasty]

Did the Reapers indoctrinate one of the galaxy's most powerful and influential people without anybody even suspecting it? Furthermore, was said person completely incapable of fighting off the indoctrination even though Saren (a mere Spectre, compared to TIM) was able to beat Sovereign's indoctrination?

Saren wasn't a 'mere Spectre', he was one of the best that ever lived. Beneziah, who's been alive for centuries and has a vast wealth of experience and willpower, couldn't even fully fight it off. It's pretty well established that once the Reapers get their mitts in your mind, that's all she wrote. Some people might be able to resist it for a while, but shrug it off completely? Never.

[KotorEffect3]

I think it is very plausible that TIM and his club of xenophobic terrorists could get themselves indocrtrinated they are dumb enough to screw around with reaper tech afterall. Besides didn't Saren think that he could use Sovereign to bring humanity to it's knees before he knew what Sovereign was and got himself indoctrinated? Well TIM is the same way he wanted to use the tech from the Collector Base to use against the reapers and beyond (wonder what he could have met by "beyond"). In both cases the reapers were able to use Saren's and TIM's lust for power against them.

Modifié par KotorEffect3, 12 juin 2011 - 10:12 .

[Juztinb42]

To be honest, it's frustrating how little information people actually comprehend from my post.

[Nohvarr]

Juztinb42 wrote...

To be honest, it's frustrating how little information people actually comprehend from my post.

So people point out the holes in your argument and you claim they just don't understand'?

[Winterfly]

So ALL of Cerberus end up indoctrinate? The military doctrine of Cerberus who was non exsistant or not close to any Reaper tech in ME2 suddenly becomes indoctrinate? The cells who is kept alone and unknown of others some how becomes a faction with a bad ass army that seemingly got indoctrinate?

I better ****ing hope Jacob or Miranda leads a splinter section of sane Cerberus, maybe some parts of the army branch still fights for humanity.

[Someone With Mass]

Yo yo, I head you like indoctrination, so we put more indoctrination in your Mass Effect, so now you can have more indoctrination while you indoctrinate.

[GreenDragon37]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

I think it is very plausible that TIM and his club of xenophobic terrorists could get themselves indocrtrinated they are dumb enough to screw around with reaper tech afterall. Besides didn't Saren think that he could use Sovereign to bring humanity to it's knees before he knew what Sovereign was and got himself indoctrinated? Well TIM is the same way he wanted to use the tech from the Collector Base to use against the reapers and beyond (wonder what he could have met by "beyond"). In both cases the reapers were able to use Saren's and TIM's lust for power against them.

Exactly. Over-confidence could have lead to TIM's destruction, just like Saren.

Also, I thought the whole point of ME2 was that you work with Cerberus, not because they are your friends, but because you share the same temporary goal: the defeat of the Reapers.

[DocLasty]

Nohvarr wrote...

Juztinb42 wrote...

To be honest, it's frustrating how little information people actually comprehend from my post.

So people point out the holes in your argument and you claim they just don't understand'?

Pretty common defense.

"You're wrong about X and X."

"No, you don't understand what I'm trying to say! God, you're dumb. I won't even bother clarifying."

[GreenDragon37]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Yo yo, I head you like indoctrination, so we put more indoctrination in your Mass Effect, so now you can have more indoctrination while you indoctrinate.

Actually, wasn't there a thread in ME2 sometime ago that asked for Indoctrination to have a more prominant role and a lot of people agreed?

[Spectre_907]

Casey Hudson said both Cerberus and the Reapers are against you. He admits to saying that to simplify the premise. This does not mean they are with the Reapers and against you. They could have their own agenda.

[Nohvarr]

Winterfly wrote...

So ALL of Cerberus end up indoctrinate? The military doctrine of Cerberus who was non exsistant or not close to any Reaper tech in ME2 suddenly becomes indoctrinate? The cells who is kept alone and unknown of others some how becomes a faction with a bad ass army that seemingly got indoctrinate?

Gigantic sentient machines, that can remote control people from across galactic distance, and enhance their physical speed and strength to ridiculous degree. They indoctrinated everyone at the Base in arrival via a previously unknown device. So those people go out and using the knowledge they have of Cerberus hunt down their operations and either indoctrinate everyone, or just the people in charge. Because once the Reapers have control of TIM, much of Cerberus will fall into their grasp.

[DocLasty]

Really, stop and think about.

Cerebus is very centralized around the Illusive Man. There are a lot of little operations and whatnot, but they all take orders from TIM. He controls it all. Nobody but his most trusted people are even allowed to meet him in person and have any idea where he really is at any given moment. If the Reapers control him, it would be simple for them to start moving pieces around and eventually get the whole organization.

On top of that, he's shown that he has very little respect for Indoctrination. He sent a team onto the derelict, and while it was defunct at the time, he had to know there was some great risk of them being changed. Him and Cerberus on the whole are frequently portrayed as people who have a habit of messing with crap they really shouldn't be messing with. It is that much of a stretch to think they got indoctrinated?

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

Warkupo wrote...

You should definitely continue to freak out prematurely before you hear any in-game story explanation for this at all.

That is the point, there is no explanation that would make sense as to why the whole of Cerberus would willingly join with the Reapers, the only possible explanations are either bad writing, laziness or a combination of both.

Ok if you want to indoctrination argument then fine, it would make sense that those stationed at the reaper base may get indoctrinated but not the whole ****ing company, and how the hell do they explain it if in your save Shepard actually destroys the base? What then? 

Of course there is even the possibility that the Illusive Man willingly struck a deal with the Reapers which is even more ****ing absurd, and even if TIM was stupid enough to strike a deal why the hell would the rest of Cerberus stick with him?

The whole concept reeks of poor design.

[Warkupo]

I can't really imagine TIM becoming Indoctrinated. Yes, I know Saren and Benezia where a pretty big deal, but TIM still seems levels above them as far as mind control resistance goes. I'd find it more plausible that TIM is silently killed and replaced than to believe he is indoctrinated.

On the other hand, Joker does mention that Cerberus was a *three*-headed dog, and the game makes refrences to Cerberus possibly having more than just TIM as the leader. So perhaps he is not as in control as we think he is.

Really, it could go in a thousand different directions.

[DocLasty]

 
"Ok if you want to indoctrination argument then fine, it would make sense that those stationed at the reaper base may get indoctrinated but not the whole ****ing company, and how the hell do they explain it if in your save Shepard actually destroys the base? What then?" 

Well, you have a point there, that base WAS the last piece of reaper technology in the entire galaxy. I mean, it's not like you come across a piece of Reaper tech every other damn hour in Mass Effect 2. It's not like Cerebus could find something new - I mean, we searched every planet, every single one, there's no way they found something new between games, or just had something they didn't tell Shepard about. That's impossible.

"Of course there is even the possibility that the Illusive Man willingly struck a deal with the Reapers which is even more ****ing absurd, and even if TIM was stupid enough to strike a deal why the hell would the rest of Cerberus stick with him?"

Reapers don't 'strike deals' they indoctrinate people and bend them to their will.

As has been said, you're complaining about mere speculation. Very weak speculation at that. At least whine about facts.

[Schneidend]

We've had no confirmation that all of Cerberus is arrayed against Shepard. He fights like twenty or thirty Cerberus troopers in the footage we've seen, max.

If your Shepard destroys the Collector base, plenty of reaper tech has been handed around through various Cerberus channels that all the cells could have been indoctrinated. Even EDI herself has reaper technology in her mainframe.

The possibility that Illusive Man is willingly working with the reapers depends on the circumstances. If things were dire enough, I could see TIM making a deal if the terms included preserving humanity. On top of that, we could have TIM completely wrong and Project Lazarous was just a stepping stone toward TIM's true goal: immortality.

[Spectre_907]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

That is the point, there is no explanation that would make sense as to why the whole of Cerberus would willingly join with the Reapers, the only possible explanations are either bad writing, laziness or a combination of both.

Ok if you want to indoctrination argument then fine, it would make sense that those stationed at the reaper base may get indoctrinated but not the whole ****ing company, and how the hell do they explain it if in your save Shepard actually destroys the base? What then? 

Of course there is even the possibility that the Illusive Man willingly struck a deal with the Reapers which is even more ****ing absurd, and even if TIM was stupid enough to strike a deal why the hell would the rest of Cerberus stick with him?

The whole concept reeks of poor design.

We don't know if they did any of that. The premise was just simplified by Hudson. They could have their own agenda. Either that or they found out something about Shepard that will be a detriment to the war effort.

[Nohvarr]

I will Repeat, Cerberus got it's hands on Reaper tech AFTER ME 2, and implanted it into one of their former operatives. A man who had enough information to cripple Cerberus when given to te Alliance. The Reapers now know everything he knew, why is it hard to believe they'd use that knowledge to take over Cerberus.

[jbblue05]

Could you imagined the amount of b!tching by paragons if Bioware says your still working with Cerberus.

Paragons are the majority, so majority rules.
Cerberus must do a 180 on the Reaper threat to appease Cerberus haters

[GreenDragon37]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Warkupo wrote...

You should definitely continue to freak out prematurely before you hear any in-game story explanation for this at all.

That is the point, there is no explanation that would make sense as to why the whole of Cerberus would willingly join with the Reapers, the only possible explanations are either bad writing, laziness or a combination of both.

Ok if you want to indoctrination argument then fine, it would make sense that those stationed at the reaper base may get indoctrinated but not the whole ****ing company, and how the hell do they explain it if in your save Shepard actually destroys the base? What then? 

Of course there is even the possibility that the Illusive Man willingly struck a deal with the Reapers which is even more ****ing absurd, and even if TIM was stupid enough to strike a deal why the hell would the rest of Cerberus stick with him?

The whole concept reeks of poor design.

You wanna talk about poor design?

At the end of ME1, my Shep saved the Council and after the battle, they finally acknowledged the Reaper threat and gave Humanity a seat on the Council. I picked Anderson to lead as Councilor, and he said that they would put all of their efforts into preparing against the Reapers, with the whole galaxy united against them.

ME2 comes around, Shep dies, suddenly, the Council doesn't believe in the Reapers, the Alliance brass tears their greatest hero's words apart, and Anderson loses political pull. All of this so that we would be forced to work with Cerberus, who went from a rogue Alliance black-ops group, to a major military operation in 2 years, which was never mentioned, nor hinted at in previous novels (most likely retconning or adding things in real fast). Suddenly, we have to work for this amoral group, all because BioWare hit the Alliance and the Council with the Derp Stick?

That's poor design.

[jbblue05]

Nohvarr wrote...

I will Repeat, Cerberus got it's hands on Reaper tech AFTER ME 2, and implanted it into one of their former operatives. A man who had enough information to cripple Cerberus when given to te Alliance. The Reapers now know everything he knew, why is it hard to believe they'd use that knowledge to take over Cerberus.

weak argument even the Turians couldn't locate TIM's base.

Plus Grayson doesn't know what's been going on with Cerberus the past two years

[Winterfly]

Nohvarr wrote...

Winterfly wrote...

So ALL of Cerberus end up indoctrinate? The military doctrine of Cerberus who was non exsistant or not close to any Reaper tech in ME2 suddenly becomes indoctrinate? The cells who is kept alone and unknown of others some how becomes a faction with a bad ass army that seemingly got indoctrinate?

Gigantic sentient machines, that can remote control people from across galactic distance, and enhance their physical speed and strength to ridiculous degree. They indoctrinated everyone at the Base in arrival via a previously unknown device. So those people go out and using the knowledge they have of Cerberus hunt down their operations and either indoctrinate everyone, or just the people in charge. Because once the Reapers have control of TIM, much of Cerberus will fall into their grasp.

So why are they not freaking indoctrinating the whole universe?

I find it flawed. TIM is this and that? Bah.

The arrival was the biggest let down ever.