335 réponses à ce sujet

[Xeranx]

 I understand that normally my post would go into a wish list thread, but I have the idea that your comment is best served as being on the first five pages (first page or first two pages being paramount) or the last one when the thread is closed.  However, relying on your comment to be read on the last page of a closed thread is about as good as having your comment on page 20 of any thread.  The likelihood of it being read are slim to none.  Then of course there's popularity, but I think I've droned on about wanting my post read long enough. 

Now this is a request in hopes that it can be accomplished so long as the voice work hasn't started already.

What I would really appreciate is for female Shepard to not be as she was in ME2.

What I mean by that is I disliked how "butch" (for lack of a better word) she came about.  It looked to me like Fem!Shep was acting in a more masculine way because a man would be more forceful.  It was evident in bits where she'd say "I'll take it!"  Now I referenced her sound, but this also comes down to animations.  The constant knuckle cracking being something I really wished wasn't included.  Not because it's unladylike, but because it comes from a long line of masculine mannerisms.  And it doesn't necessarily make a man look like he's all that strong anyway.  It's all bravado.

I'm sure someone at some time has seen how female characters in television and movies are done when they want to "butch" them up.  Spitting, scratching...everything and anything that says they're not what society would equate to normal female mannerisms.   Again, that's not a bad thing if it's in character, but one thing I dislike in any media is seeing a woman act like a man just for the sake of being tough.  Usually, from what I've seen, it all falls apart at some point with the woman being really vulnerable and seeing that it's all a facade.

There have been plenty of depictions of strong women without adopting a male habit/mannerism without cause with such examples as: Zoe from Firefly, Buffy from BTVS, though I haven't seen the trilogy I've heard things about Ellen Ripley (I think that's her name),  if anyone has watched the show "Justified" there are four that come to mind (Ava Crowder, Mags Bennett, Helen Givens, and Rachel Brooks), Max from Dark Angel, and so on.

Wrapping this up because I might end up being more long-winded than I am and probably defeat my post in the process if I haven't done so already.  I would like to see a return to what Fem!Shep was like in the first game.  Her intonation wasn't macho, but you saw how strong she was.  To me that's more important than knuckle cracking.  Show she's tough like the other women I mentioned above.  To me, it does a whole lot more to see that inner strength shine through than to see anything associated with male bravado.  Thank you.

[Sesshomaru47]

Female Shepard was better in videos in Mass Effect with her own animations. But given the time in which this game will be out, I wouldn't hold my breath for her to back to normal.

[cactusberry]

I have no problem with the reasons you mentioned, and I play female Shepard. Who said cracking your knuckles is a manly trait? I don't see it done onto one gender more than another. Also, in my opinion, it isn't supposed to be taken in a symbolistic way, but more of a threat. From what she's been through, of course she's going to have habits that act toward a more "butched" direction. I don't personally see any indication, in Mass Effect 2, that she's trying to "act tough" or act masculine. Maybe i'm blind, but that's just how I see into this matter.

[Clonedzero]

when i saw the vid of femshep in LotSB rushing the shadowbroker and slamming the shield i laughed at how silly it looked.

shoulda had a more believable scene/animation for femshep than brute forcing it like maleshep.

i agree with you, having her be super butch and do all the same actions as maleshep comes across as awkward and goofy.

[Thrombin]

I don't find her butch at all. I like her just the way she is.

Besides, her mannerisms have already been established. Whether it's atypical or not isn't relevant as that's how she is and changing her now would change her from being the same person I've played over the two games so far.

[hexaligned]

As someone who has spent a good amount of time with female soldiers. Despite what you said, there is a cause for it, it's just natural to unconsciously pick up on the mannerisms of the people around you. If those people tend to be aggressive, testosterone filled, trained killers, you are going to pick up some aggressive feral twitches.  Being Aggressive and animalistic aren't "manly" traits, or at least I don't see them as such.

Modifié par relhart, 12 juin 2011 - 10:39 .

[CrimsonNephilim]

I agree with how the animations in ME2 were off. When I saw how she sat or moved during conversations, all I could think was "Wow...they just threw the female Shepard mesh over male Shepard's for the animation."

It just looked really awkward. I definitely don't want to be dumbed down into a prissy feminine type. I'm a female but I can't stand the stereotypical "ladylike" mannerisms. Shepard is a marine, she should have some strong characteristics about her if playing a Femshep. Just not so much that its obvious that we just got our custom creation of her thrown in place of male Shepard.

[ZLurps]

The thing is, strong character adapts manners that feel natural to him/her regardless of gender and tend to make his/her own rules.

Also, I think things didn't went all smoothly when BioWare was creating and animating models for ME2. There are still things like characters sinking in desk, floating, etc. I think fem-Shep rattling her knuckles may go to that gategory as well. Then again, first line in this post.

Modifié par ZLurps, 12 juin 2011 - 10:41 .

[ZLurps]

relhart wrote...

As someone who has spent a good amount of time with female soldiers. Despite what you said, there is a cause for it, it's just natural to unconsciously pick up on the mannerisms of the people around you. If those people tend to be aggressive, testosterone filled, trained killers, you are going to pick up some aggressive feral twitches.  Being Aggressive and animalistic aren't "manly" traits, or at least I don't see them as such.

Very good point. People also tend to get in environments they feel they can fit in. Naturally things from body language to military slang can stick.

[Kakistos_]

I completely agree, though I find nothing wrong with a butch/masculine female Shepard if that is truly who she is. If anything in the least is to be chamged it should be how she moves. Men and women can share any range of emotion and identity but there are some physical characteristics that are struck in bone.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Think Vasquez in "Aliens". She's a combat veteran. Yes, they butched her up. I don't think the knuckle cracking is right. See that's bluff and bluster giving someone a chance. A woman warrior doesn't bluff -- she's out for blood.

[Xeranx]

I understand that. It's just that when I finished my first play-through of ME and then went back to do another I noticed things that I didn't notice before.

I noticed that she, in her role as a leader, was a soldier first and a woman last. Still it didn't preclude her having a soft voice and coming across as being gentle. It didn't look like she was two different people, but a person who was who she is and was still respected. Not once did it cross my mind that she's too soft.

Being male and having no other way to view things except from the outside it amazed me that she could be both gentle and tough at the same time. The only place I can remember seeing that again in ME2 was on Tali's loyalty mission. I thought, "There she is".

@relhart
Yes, being around anyone for a long time will have you unconsciously adopting mannerisms. I still thought that Fem!Shep, being who she was in ME1, still maintained what is a feminine quality that only served to enhance who she was. Think about how Grunt first addresses her, "Human, female..." and he's met with something he wasn't expecting. Not that it wasn't the same for male Shep, but I think we've come to expect that in SciFi media where humans are met with aliens stronger than them yet have the capacity to best them. If the aliens had knowledge of humans over the course of our history and met up with a woman like Shepard I think they would be confused at first and then respect her more as they remained in contact with her.

Hopefully I explained that right.

@TheDarkRats
To me, cracking your knuckles in such a way is male bravado. If I didn't know who Shepard was and what they were capable of, in that first instance - if that was my first mission (I'm referencing getting to Archangel)- I would have expected things to go awry. In movies and television most things like that are done by men and usually done by men who have no business trying to show how tough they are because they're really not.

Modifié par Xeranx, 12 juin 2011 - 11:00 .

[cactusberry]

Almost everyone I know cracks their knuckles. Including females. The action isn't exactly in the minority.

[Clonedzero]

relhart wrote...

As someone who has spent a good amount of time with female soldiers. Despite what you said, there is a cause for it, it's just natural to unconsciously pick up on the mannerisms of the people around you. If those people tend to be aggressive, testosterone filled, trained killers, you are going to pick up some aggressive feral twitches.  Being Aggressive and animalistic aren't "manly" traits, or at least I don't see them as such.

if i hang around someone who has an accent for awhile ill start mimicing the accent, sometimes they get annoyed a nd think im mocking them

[Clonedzero]

TheDarkRats wrote...

Almost everyone I know cracks their knuckles. Including females. The action isn't exactly in the minority.

yeah, but a female cracking her knuckles in front of you wouldnt be intimidating at all

[hexaligned]

Clonedzero wrote...

relhart wrote...

As someone who has spent a good amount of time with female soldiers. Despite what you said, there is a cause for it, it's just natural to unconsciously pick up on the mannerisms of the people around you. If those people tend to be aggressive, testosterone filled, trained killers, you are going to pick up some aggressive feral twitches.  Being Aggressive and animalistic aren't "manly" traits, or at least I don't see them as such.

if i hang around someone who has an accent for awhile ill start mimicing the accent, sometimes they get annoyed a nd think im mocking them

Yeah, I'm originaly from NY, I lived in Germany for 3 years, and France for 2, my accent is all sorts of ****ed up.

[Ghost Warrior]

I agree with the OP,FemShep should get some of her own animations.

[tmp7704]

Xeranx wrote...

There have been plenty of depictions of strong women without adopting a male habit/mannerism

It's only "male mannerism" if you refuse to accept the idea it's an action that can be performed by person of either gender. Maybe it's not about "depiction of strong woman" but rather depiction of a strong person who simply doesn't care about such labels, and does what (s)he feels like doing?

[Eternal Dust]

I sort of agree in a way. I liked FemShep best in the first Mass Effect. It just felt like in ME2 they "butch-ified" her to an extreme and there was definitely a marked difference in JH's intonation when she delivered her lines. Maybe this was on purpose? Either way they need to reel it back. Also, please give FemShep her own animation rig in ME3. I cringe in horror at her posture when she's sitting and her running in a dress just reminds me of a drunk gorilla.

[Xeranx]

tmp7704 wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

There have been plenty of depictions of strong women without adopting a male habit/mannerism

It's only "male mannerism" if you refuse to accept the idea it's an action that can be performed by person of either gender. Maybe it's not about "depiction of strong woman" but rather depiction of a strong person who simply doesn't care about such labels, and does what (s)he feels like doing?

You're right.  In fact I did that with Ashley and it allowed me to actually look at her actions and listen to what she said and not hear how it's said.  I looked at Shepard the same way afterward and I guess it's because I've processed it I'm recognizing: 'female Shepard' rather than Shepard --> human --> female.

Referencing bold: That's what I felt she did in the first game.  It's probably because I like to maintain something about myself despite what others say is likely to happen during the course of anything I go through.  For instance the last job I had was a retail job.  I had to deal with customers on a regular basis and anyone who has ever worked in retail knows that you will generally come across people who make your job less fun than it is.  I was told this by a co-worker and my decision at that time was not to have it change me to be somewhat more inconsiderate which is what I've witnessed from those who were hired after me and became more confrontational.  

Now my decision didn't stop me from getting into confrontations or letting people know where I stood on their actions if it bothered me, but I was noticed for having a lot of patience.  I ended up having more fun in the 5 years I was there than people who were only there for 3 years or less because I decided to carry myself the way I wished.  I became more confident in myself and didn't allow myself to be a pushover...at least as much as I was prior to working there.

Modifié par Xeranx, 12 juin 2011 - 11:25 .

[Clonedzero]

tmp7704 wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

There have been plenty of depictions of strong women without adopting a male habit/mannerism

It's only "male mannerism" if you refuse to accept the idea it's an action that can be performed by person of either gender. Maybe it's not about "depiction of strong woman" but rather depiction of a strong person who simply doesn't care about such labels, and does what (s)he feels like doing?

weak argument.

it should be a believable character first.

i cant take femshep seriously because they have a 150 pound woman (probably less) acting like a damn linebacker.

you can have a tough and strong female character, just dont have them act like a dude, especially dont make them act like a dude 3 times her size.

[tmp7704]

Clonedzero wrote...

weak argument.

it should be a believable character first.

i cant take femshep seriously because they have a 150 pound woman (probably less) acting like a damn linebacker.

you can have a tough and strong female character, just dont have them act like a dude, especially dont make them act like a dude 3 times her size.

It's not the argument that's weak. It's your preconceptions that's too strong for you to overcome. Why do you think there's such thing as "acting like a dude" in the first place? Because you've been taught to believe that some behaviours are only suitable for one gender... and why do you believe that to be the case, exactly?

[cactusberry]

Clonedzero wrote...

TheDarkRats wrote...

Almost everyone I know cracks their knuckles. Including females. The action isn't exactly in the minority.

yeah, but a female cracking her knuckles in front of you wouldnt be intimidating at all

Personally, I would be intimidated by anyone who's holding me in a corner with a bunch of huge guns and armor. Especially if the person knows who Shepard is and the headcount she has.

[bleetman]

It's good to know that physical strength is a trait restricted to men, and any attempt at portraying it from a women is simply a masquerade to cover up deep personal vulnerabilities.

Shepard cracking her knuckles didn't bother me in the slightest, perhaps because I've never equated knuckle cracking with tiresome masculine expectations, or perhaps because I only remember her doing it twice. Is it a regular occurance? I can't say I noticed. But then, I can't say I've ever cracked my knuckles. I just suck at being male.

[Collider]

The problems with female Shepard had almost nothing to do with gender if you ask me. At best, just the animations (walking/running, and sitting).

One major problem was the voice direction. Female Shepard (male Shepard sounds monotone in both games, there's a problem with his voice direction as well) sounded natural, strong, and believable in ME1. In ME2 there's too much of an effort to sound badass. I consider this to be an affliction of ME2's Shepard in general. Just look at one of the loading tips in the game.
"Be the ultimate badass - (paraphrasing) renegade points allow you new persuasion options."

That just about spells it out for you. There was too much focus on making Shepard the comic book badass, and not enough on making her/him seem human.

DON'T make my female Shepard automatically sound less forceful than my male Shepard. That's just enforcing gender stereotypes. Women can be assertive and competent just as any man.
Above all, make Shepard seem "human" and believable no matter the gender.