335 réponses à ce sujet

[Olwydd]

While I agree that FemShep needs a few animations of her own, I absolutely protest against changing her mannerisms. That would be a really bad retcon.

[tmp7704]

bleetman wrote...

It's good to know that physical strength is a trait restricted to men.

Obviously a woman cannot be physically strong; not even when she's quite literally 6 billion credit semi-cyborg rebuilt from a frozen carcass.

[Xeranx]

bleetman wrote...

It's good to know that physical strength is a trait restricted to men, and any attempt at portraying it from a women is simply a masquerade to cover up deep personal vulnerabilities.

Shepard cracking her knuckles didn't bother me in the slightest, perhaps because I've never equated knuckle cracking with tiresome masculine expectations, or perhaps because I only remember her doing it twice. Is it a regular occurance? I can't say I noticed. But then, I can't say I've ever cracked my knuckles. I just suck at being male.

Just in case you missed it because it seems like you did:

Xeranx wrote...
And it doesn't necessarily make a man look like he's all that strong anyway.  It's all bravado.

Instead of being dismissive please read the comments and then respond.

[cactusberry]

tmp7704 wrote...

bleetman wrote...

It's good to know that physical strength is a trait restricted to men.

Obviously a woman cannot be physically strong; not even when she's quite literally 6 billion credit semi-cyborg rebuilt from a frozen carcass.

Plus upgrades all Alliance personell get.

[Clonedzero]

bleetman wrote...

It's good to know that physical strength is a trait restricted to men, and any attempt at portraying it from a women is simply a masquerade to cover up deep personal vulnerabilities.

Shepard cracking her knuckles didn't bother me in the slightest, perhaps because I've never equated knuckle cracking with tiresome masculine expectations, or perhaps because I only remember her doing it twice. Is it a regular occurance? I can't say I noticed. But then, I can't say I've ever cracked my knuckles. I just suck at being male.

its absolutely not restricted to men.

femshep looks to be 150 pounds MAX. she's not going to be brute forcing anyone anytime soon...
if she's going to act super tough and strong, she should have that bodytype for her to be believable. she should not be slamming into a yahg and going toe-to-toe with him in terms of strength.

im sorry, you can have a sexy slim female body and be super strong and tough at the same time. she can be strong willed and such, but not super physically strong is she's a slender woman. you cant have it both ways.

all im saying is give femshep some more believable animations and actions unique to her being a fairly average female bodytype. maybe instead of slamming into the yahg's shield and holding him in place that way, maybe she can kick out his leg or something?

just dont tell me to believe that a small woman should be behaving the same way as a 250 pound man. it just comes across as goofy.

[Collider]

I don't think we need to change animations simply because women tend to not to be as physically strong as men.

Just make female Shepard look more muscular and fit.
And for those concerned about physical beauty, athletic women can easily be beautiful & attractive as well. And if they train, they can be stronger than the average man (and other athletes of the male gender).

[Ianamus]

I'm uncertain about giving FemShep her own animations. In other games where there have been different animations the Female animations are usually stereotypical and overly girly. I'd rather see FemShep with male animations than see her prancing around like a dainty little flower.

[Xeranx]

@Clonedzero

They addressed how any Alliance Marine is augmented. I know many made statements about having Fem!Shep carry Kaidan away from the bomb across her shoulder, but given the augmentations I won't doubt that she's capable of doing what she did.

Now, normally a 150-pound woman isn't considered able to go against a 250-pound man, but many are able to do it and without giving the guy shots to the groin.  This is present-day.  Not even talking about the future.

Collider wrote...

The problems with female Shepard had almost nothing to do with gender if you ask me. At best, just the animations (walking/running, and sitting).

One major problem was the voice direction. Female Shepard (male Shepard sounds monotone in both games, there's a problem with his voice direction as well) sounded natural, strong, and believable in ME1. In ME2 there's too much of an effort to sound badass. I consider this to be an affliction of ME2's Shepard in general. Just look at one of the loading tips in the game. 
"Be the ultimate badass - (paraphrasing) renegade points allow you new persuasion options."

That just about spells it out for you. There was too much focus on making Shepard the comic book badass, and not enough on making her/him seem human. 

DON'T make my female Shepard automatically sound less forceful than my male Shepard. That's just enforcing gender stereotypes. Women can be assertive and competent just as any man. 
Above all, make Shepard seem "human" and believable no matter the gender.

Thanks Collider, especially about the part in green.  I didn't know there was a tip that said that.  

Modifié par Xeranx, 12 juin 2011 - 11:38 .

[jadey]

I agree, she could be strong and a bit more feminine, I mean she sits with her legs wide open with a dress on, not nice at all.

[tmp7704]

Clonedzero wrote...

femshep looks to be 150 pounds MAX. she's not going to be brute forcing anyone anytime soon...
if she's going to act super tough and strong, she should have that bodytype for her to be believable. she should not be slamming into a yahg and going toe-to-toe with him in terms of strength.

Don't know about you, but if i saw this guy crack his knuckles



i'd be thinking twice. And he doesn't seem to be more than 150 pounds, either.

[bleetman]

Xeranx wrote...

Instead of being dismissive please read the comments and then respond.

No, I saw that. I'm dismissive because I just plain don't agree with either the assertion that knuckle-cracking is a 'male' trait, or that women who supposedly act 'like men' do so to cover up their own hidden, fragile persona.

I also just genuinely don't remember her cracking her knuckles, besides that one time in Lair of the Shadow Broker. When I'm asking if she did, that inquiry is genuine. I literally don't remember it.

tmp7704 wrote...

And he doesn't seem to be more than 150 pounds, either.

That, and he's not wrapped in a cybernetically enhanced armoured battle suit. But hey.

Modifié par bleetman, 12 juin 2011 - 11:39 .

[Collider]

There's knuckle cracking in the Garrus recruitment mission, and when you talk to Mouse in Thane's loyalty.
I thought it was rather annoying all around, no matter the gender.

[idoless24]

I dont find her "butch". I love her the way she is. None of those mannerisms are considered masculine to me.

[tmp7704]

bleetman wrote...

I also just genuinely don't remember her cracking her knuckles, besides that one time in Lair of the Shadow Broker. When I'm asking if she did, that inquiry is genuine. I literally don't remember it.

Think it's one of the idle animations. So it's played every now and then. Can't say it ever bothered me, though... perhaps because personally i view it more like relaxing gesture along the lines of arm stretch. The "masculine bravado" angle is quite an alien take on it to me.

[Xeranx]

bleetman wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

Instead of being dismissive please read the comments and then respond.

No, I saw that. I'm dismissive because I just plain don't agree with either the assertion that knuckle-cracking is a 'male' trait, or that women who supposedly act 'like men' do so to cover up their own hidden, fragile persona.

I also just genuinely don't remember her cracking her knuckles, besides that one time in Lair of the Shadow Broker. When I'm asking if she did, that inquiry is genuine. I literally don't remember it.

Then I should have stressed (if I didn't already) how in shows when it's done by men it's also before they get the tar beaten out of them.  As I said earlier....it's all bravado.  That's how I see it.

[Clonedzero]

Xeranx wrote...

@Clonedzero

They addressed how any Alliance Marine is augmented. I know many made statements about having Fem!Shep carry Kaidan away from the bomb across her shoulder, but given the augmentations I won't doubt that she's capable of doing what she did.

Now, normally a 150-pound woman isn't considered able to go against a 250-pound man, but many are able to do it and without giving the guy shots to the groin.  This is present-day.  Not even talking about the future.

sure, they're able to do it, but generally its not from simply overpowering them.

ive seen a 90 pound guy drop a 300 pound dude with very little effort, however he didnt use raw strength to do it.

my issue with femshep isnt that she's a tough badass female. its that when i see her do this stuff, i think "wow, i guess femshep is a dude with boobs eh?". i wanna see femshep drop a krogan in hand to hand and think "wow, femshep is a badass woman" not "wow that looked like a dude fighting"

and even being genetically and cybernetically enhanced theres simply a huge difference in size and shape. a 50 pound weight is alot easier to move around and carry than a 50 pound table.

they're going to behave differently, they're going to fight differently and they're going to solve problems differently. give femshep alittle more finese than maleshep, make maleshep seem alittle more physically strong, they'd still go toe to toe. reach vs. flexiblilty thats all.

[Clonedzero]

tmp7704 wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

femshep looks to be 150 pounds MAX. she's not going to be brute forcing anyone anytime soon...
if she's going to act super tough and strong, she should have that bodytype for her to be believable. she should not be slamming into a yahg and going toe-to-toe with him in terms of strength.

Don't know about you, but if i saw this guy crack his knuckles



i'd be thinking twice. And he doesn't seem to be more than 150 pounds, either.

thanks for making my point for me.

i didnt say she shouldnt be badass. not at all.

she just shouldnt fight like she's way bigger than she is. bruce lee wouldnt slam into a yaghs riot shield and try to overpower him would he? neither should femshep.

femshep should be fighting with more finese than maleshep to make up for her smaller size. is that bad? no, actually finese fighters are alot cooler and badass than brute force guys. not only would it make femshep alot more believable it'd also make her alittle more unique and interesting to play.

[tmp7704]

Clonedzero wrote...

i wanna see femshep drop a krogan in hand to hand and think "wow, femshep is a badass woman" not "wow that looked like a dude fighting"

What does not "fighting like a dude" look like? femShep should be pulling at the krogan's hair and beat him with her handbag?

[Clonedzero]

tmp7704 wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

i wanna see femshep drop a krogan in hand to hand and think "wow, femshep is a badass woman" not "wow that looked like a dude fighting"

What does not "fighting like a dude" look like? femShep should be pulling at the krogan's hair and beat him with her handbag?

im going to cherry pick quotes out of context too

[tmp7704]

Clonedzero wrote...

thanks for making my point for me.

Your point seemed to be a person who doesn't weight "at least 250 pounds" had no business acting in a threatening manner because their lack of weight somehow renders that null. Which is well, ridiculous. femShep is tough and strong. As such, she's perfectly free and entitled to act like such a person.

she just shouldnt fight like she's way bigger than she is.

That has nothing to do with what gestures they should be making outside of combat and whether these are "masculine traits" and such nonsense, does it?

Modifié par tmp7704, 12 juin 2011 - 11:56 .

[CrookedAsylum]

relhart wrote...

As someone who has spent a good amount of time with female soldiers. Despite what you said, there is a cause for it, it's just natural to unconsciously pick up on the mannerisms of the people around you. If those people tend to be aggressive, testosterone filled, trained killers, you are going to pick up some aggressive feral twitches.  Being Aggressive and animalistic aren't "manly" traits, or at least I don't see them as such.

This so much. The majority of my family is male and in the military, and I've spent much of my time with martial arts training with only guys.

I don't think the 'butch' characteristics are femShep trying to be tough, OP. Someone who has a background with a good deal of violence or military involvement is going to be a bit more gender neutral and even animalistic in the way they act sometimes.

[oligo]

jadey wrote...

I agree, she could be strong and a bit more feminine, I mean she sits with her legs wide open with a dress on, not nice at all.

This.

I'm not so sure about the rest of it, but when my femShep sat down after the whole "I AM Omega" thing, I was thinking "Woah, put it away, hun." o_O

That's all that really bothered me, though.... :/

Modifié par cicimae, 13 juin 2011 - 12:00 .

[Apathy1989]

Collider wrote...

There's knuckle cracking in the Garrus recruitment mission, and when you talk to Mouse in Thane's loyalty.
I thought it was rather annoying all around, no matter the gender.

Agreed. ME1 didn't have loads of animations, perhaps from lower budget, but it resulted in both sheperds being fairly gender neutral in their animations. Simple aiming gun, walking around, etc. Looked much better. Knuckle cracking is fairly cheesy.

EJ107 wrote...

I'm uncertain about giving FemShep her own animations. In other games where there have been different animations the Female animations are usually stereotypical and overly girly. I'd rather see FemShep with male animations than see her prancing around like a dainty little flower.

Also agree here. The idle animations in DA2 were an example of overtly girly movements, then returning to smacking people with a 2H sword that is bigger than her.

[Clonedzero]

tmp7704 wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

thanks for making my point for me.

Your point seemed to be a person who doesn't weight "at least 250 pounds" had no business acting in a threatening manner because their lack of weight somehow renders that null. Which is well, ridiculous. femShep is tough and strong. As such, she's perfectly free and entitled to act like such a person.

she just shouldnt fight like she's way bigger than she is.

That has nothing to do with what gestures they should be making outside of combat and whether these are "masculine traits" and such nonsense, does it?

well knuckle cracking isnt very intimidating either way. so thats a bad example.

but like alot of people are saying, she shouldnt look like a chick with male animations. i was extending that fact to the way she seems to fight as well.

like in arrival when shepard wakes up and knocks out those two dudes, it woulda been cool if femshep did it differently , maybe flipping one of them over into a table using their momentum and tripping the other one and slamming his head into the wall? hell i woulda been better if shepard of both genders did it that way lol

[lady_v23]

Clonedzero wrote...

TheDarkRats wrote...

Almost everyone I know cracks their knuckles. Including females. The action isn't exactly in the minority.

yeah, but a female cracking her knuckles in front of you wouldnt be intimidating at all

even if that female has 9th Degree in Taekwondo? but i do agree with the op.  fem shepard needs a more feminine model since you know shes is a woman:mellow: