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[onelifecrisis]

tmp7704 wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Ok so your saying a woman cant run straight?

It's probably better to watch some real people who actually run for living, than 3d stuff:



while there is some study-confirmed differences between the way males and females walk and run, something tells me when people talk about "females running" they have quite a different mental image than what can be seen at the link above. And these real differences are also quite a bit smaller than what they imagine.

Those are world class 200m sprinters. Their pelvic bones will be as masculine as a woman's can be.
http://en.wikipedia....ors_for_runners

Let me be clear: I do not want some sex kitten femShep. I just want one that doesn't break my immersion with every other movement she makes.

Modifié par onelifecrisis, 13 juin 2011 - 02:13 .

[diskoh]

Xeranx wrote...

 I understand that normally my post would go into a wish list thread, but I have the idea that your comment is best served as being on the first five pages (first page or first two pages being paramount) or the last one when the thread is closed.  However, relying on your comment to be read on the last page of a closed thread is about as good as having your comment on page 20 of any thread.  The likelihood of it being read are slim to none.  Then of course there's popularity, but I think I've droned on about wanting my post read long enough. 

Now this is a request in hopes that it can be accomplished so long as the voice work hasn't started already.

What I would really appreciate is for female Shepard to not be as she was in ME2.

What I mean by that is I disliked how "butch" (for lack of a better word) she came about.  It looked to me like Fem!Shep was acting in a more masculine way because a man would be more forceful.  It was evident in bits where she'd say "I'll take it!"  Now I referenced her sound, but this also comes down to animations.  The constant knuckle cracking being something I really wished wasn't included.  Not because it's unladylike, but because it comes from a long line of masculine mannerisms.  And it doesn't necessarily make a man look like he's all that strong anyway.  It's all bravado.

I'm sure someone at some time has seen how female characters in television and movies are done when they want to "butch" them up.  Spitting, scratching...everything and anything that says they're not what society would equate to normal female mannerisms.   Again, that's not a bad thing if it's in character, but one thing I dislike in any media is seeing a woman act like a man just for the sake of being tough.  Usually, from what I've seen, it all falls apart at some point with the woman being really vulnerable and seeing that it's all a facade.

There have been plenty of depictions of strong women without adopting a male habit/mannerism without cause with such examples as: Zoe from Firefly, Buffy from BTVS, though I haven't seen the trilogy I've heard things about Ellen Ripley (I think that's her name),  if anyone has watched the show "Justified" there are four that come to mind (Ava Crowder, Mags Bennett, Helen Givens, and Rachel Brooks), Max from Dark Angel, and so on.

Wrapping this up because I might end up being more long-winded than I am and probably defeat my post in the process if I haven't done so already.  I would like to see a return to what Fem!Shep was like in the first game.  Her intonation wasn't macho, but you saw how strong she was.  To me that's more important than knuckle cracking.  Show she's tough like the other women I mentioned above.  To me, it does a whole lot more to see that inner strength shine through than to see anything associated with male bravado.  Thank you.

And you guys thought I was dumb for calling the anti-Ashley change people sexists. I told you that it was incredibly sexist to demand that a woman wear what you insist or she can't be a soldier or true to herself.

Now we have one of the most vocal people from that thread here demanding that another woman have the traits that he wants.

Continue to deride me when i call out the sexism, though.

[KBomb]

ReiSilver wrote...

*applauds*

FenShep is one of my favourite game characters just the way she is.
I got into Mass Effect because of articles talking about how awesome it was to play a voiced female character that was treated the same as the male counter part, without being sexed up or 'feminised'. No midrif exposing armor, no high heels, she's a military woman out to save the galaxy! I prefer playing femShep to MaleShep, I can relate to her, I feel like I'm playing a female character that was meant for me to play as, not as an extra for guys to plays as so they could oggle a butt.

In Dragon age 2 they gave the Hawke's different walking/standing/idle/running animations that made playing Lady Hawke a pain in the ass for me, to see my badass/streetwise/tomboy rogue mincing or daintily checking her shoe or running in a way that makes my spine hurt. I feel like LadyHawke isn't there for me to play like Shepard is, she comes off as a performance rather then a real character. Thus I prefer playing Male Hawke, just to get away from those things. I'm only just now thinking of trying to play Lady Hawke with a mod that lets her run like a normal human being. (Too bad I can't fix the voice but that's another issue)

I really hope ME3 doesn't change the animations too much. There's nothing wrong with the way she sits, I sit like that all the time. PLEASE no mincing, no dainty, please let her keep running like a normal person and not a caricature of 'femininity'!

Shep aint got no time for gender performance, she's too busy kicking ass!

She didn’t walk or run like that in the first Mass Effect though. So it isn’t like changing it back would be taking away from femShep’s character or personality. Personally, I love how she is a bad-ass. I don’t want that to change.

I can understand some people getting irritated at those who are saying it’s nothing wrong with femShep having a “manly” (used for better lack of descriptive word), yet these same people are acting as though it is wrong for a woman to have a “dainty” or a more widely accepted notion of a feminine walk and still be a bad-ass. Feminism: A double Edged Sword.

It isn't really a big deal either way. Preferences are allowed, on both sides.

Modifié par KBomb, 13 juin 2011 - 02:15 .

[Clonedzero]

Valentia X wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...



right, but she's not a basic soldier. she's an N7, highly trained special forces. and they tend to train them for their strengths.

I would argue that they train them for strength, period. N7s, at least as far as I can tell, are supposed to be the ultimate soldier. Strong, fast, intelligent (hell, apparently we can all hack Illium's systems and I doubt they're running the galactic version of Windows Vista)- Shepard needs to have it all. The amount of resources it would take to train each one individually in a specific prowess, no matter how small the N7 class may be, would still be ridiculous and a waste of time. All of our individuality comes from our class, not our 'basic training', as it were.

That is, however, just my opinion on the matter. 

training for strength based hand to hand combat is probably the least efficent way to do it lol regardless of sex. being trained for overpowering attacks isnt going to help you take on a krogan who will be stronger no matter what.

[diskoh]

Whether it's "wrong" or not, in Mass Effect 1 and 2, femShep walked and talked and carried herself a certain way. To change it in Mass Effect 3 makes no sense and is a needless retcon. if you want all new animations to make the main character carry them self differently, just wait until the next game when there's a new character.

My femShep is a bad ass space marine who is too busy saving the ****ing galaxy to be concerned with making sure she acts "feminine" enough for some people. Especially 20th century troglodytes concerned with such a thing.

Modifié par diskoh, 13 juin 2011 - 02:25 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

To the OP: It's pretty simple. In ME1 FemShep got some attention (animation-wise) from the devs, but in ME2 that was lost. BW didn't think it was important enough. So she shares the same animations with MaleShep. The only difference (maybe with a few exceptions hardly worth mentioning) was the great voice acting. I think that any image that FemShep has in ME2 was a byproduct of their "inaction". It looks like she gets some more loving from the devs in ME3. At least I hope so.

[Xeranx]

diskoh wrote...

And you guys thought I was dumb for calling the anti-Ashley change people sexists. I told you that it was incredibly sexist to demand that a woman wear what you insist or she can't be a soldier or true to herself.

Now we have one of the most vocal people from that thread here demanding that another woman have the traits that he wants.

Continue to deride me when i call out the sexism, though.

You came in here looking for a fight.  You're calling me sexist when what I've said can only be misconstrued as sexist if that's the slant you're going for.  In short I'm not being sexist.  I've also made no demands.  You're two for two.

Considering this looks like a vendetta you have against me I'll just report you and keep things moving. 

[KBomb]

diskoh wrote...

Whether it's "wrong" or not, in Mass Effect 1 and 2, femShep walked and talked and carried herself a certain way. To change it in Mass Effect 3 makes no sense and is a needless retcon. if you want all new animations to make the main character carry them self differently, just wait until the next game when there's a new character.

My femShep is a bad ass space marine who is too busy saving the ****ing galaxy to be concerned with making sure she acts "feminine" enough for some people. Especially 20th century troglodytes concerned with such a thing.

Except she didn't walk or run the same way in Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2. Like I said, it isn't a huge deal to me, but I am glad to see she'll be getting some attention in that area in ME3.

[tmp7704]

onelifecrisis wrote...

Those are world class 200m sprinters. Their pelvic bones will be as masculine as a woman's can be.

Watch that video again and tell me with straight face the woman on the right has a masculine figure. The wikipedia link you provide lists pelvic width as one of biological factors which determine potential, but that's all it says. It doesn't even say in what way it affects that potential. And obviously, it's just one factor out of eighth.

[Seboist]

tmp7704 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Femshep's lack of muscle mass coupled with her using sheploo's animations makes moments like her carrying Kaidan over her shoulder on Virmire and punching out Turians look pretty ridiculous.

Take your pick between "microfiber muscle weave" and a reminder Bruce Lee has weighted ~140 pounds, too. There's more to the muscles than just sheer mass.

True, but femshep has the EXACT same body as Kelly and Chakwas. I have a hard time picturing her bony arms not shattering upon impact, let alone being able to damage anyone.

[Alpha-Centuri]

This is the problem.

She's doesn't "act like a man" because its in the character. She "acts like a man" because the development cut corners and put a female skin on maleshep for the animations. Look at ME1, and you see two different animations for everything. ME2, its clearly maleshep with a femshep skin and voice actor.

I was watching Bioware present TOR at E3, and one of the things that stood out was a bug when the player was playing as a female on the speeder mounts. There were clipping issues galore, and the developer apologized and said the bikes designed first for the human male character, and they were in the process of ironing it out for females. I think that's the wrong way to go about it, and they need seperate animations for femshep to be more believable. But hey, development costs are expensive, so what can ya do?

Other issues are the voice acting direction of Hale's ME2 incarnation trying to be badass (Collider had a wonderful post on this earlier in the thread).

You tone those down, and Femshep goes back to the way I think she should be. She should be a competant, bad-ass female soldier who saves the world. Not a a competant, baddass soldier with a female skin who saves the world.

YMMV. I noticed there are some on the forums that prefer femsheps to be a skin and have zero impact or acknowledgement to their gender. When I deconstruct their arguments in my head, it always strikes me as them seeing being female as a negative, which I think is a flawed viewpoint. But everyone has an opinion, and I can't claim that mine is any more valid than someone that likes femshep's gender being invisible, or ones that think the animations of ME2 add to femshep's charater. I think its an oversight, not an intention on the developer's side. Just sayin'

Edit: It has come to my attention (watched videos) that ME1 shared animations as well. However its my opinion that they were more "neutral", and were more believable for femshep. ME2 really exacerbates the problem, and she walks like John Wayne

Modifié par Alpha-Centuri, 13 juin 2011 - 02:49 .

[ThatDancingTurian]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

To the OP: It's pretty simple. In ME1 FemShep got some attention (animation-wise) from the devs, but in ME2 that was lost. BW didn't think it was important enough. So she shares the same animations with MaleShep. The only difference (maybe with a few exceptions hardly worth mentioning) was the great voice acting. I think that any image that FemShep has in ME2 was a byproduct of their "inaction". It looks like she gets some more loving from the devs in ME3. At least I hope so.

Or maybe the fact is FemShep was never important enough, the difference is the male gamers' love interest wore the same armor in ME1, so they just took Ashley's walk and gave it to FemShep.

I'm not saying this is true, but if you're going to accuse them of not caring, might as well go all the way.

Modifié par Aris Ravenstar, 13 juin 2011 - 02:35 .

[Bluko]

 You guys do realize all characters in both ME1 and ME2 share the same movement animations right? Garrus even uses the same running "skeleton" as Shepard does. Almost all of the characters share the same animations, besides a select few. Making them unique for all the aliens or even just male and females would be extremely difficult/time consuming.

Let's just be honest here. ME2's animations weren't very good, especially in comparison to ME1's. Female Shepard doesn't walk any worse then male Shepard does.

I do believe Bioware has acknowledged this and is working to make more fluid animations in ME3. That's really all we can hope for. That and they do give Female Shepard unique animations where appropriate.

[Ryzaki]

I actually miss the shared gender (more) neutral animations from ME1. (Dude Hawke shook his hips a bit too in ME1...that's absolutely GONE in ME2.)

It makes me sad.

[Clonedzero]

WOAH WOAH WOAH GUYS!

lets get one thing straight here.

shepard is not a world class runner. shepard runs out of breath after sprinting 20 feet, ok?

[diskoh]

Xeranx wrote...

diskoh wrote...

And you guys thought I was dumb for calling the anti-Ashley change people sexists. I told you that it was incredibly sexist to demand that a woman wear what you insist or she can't be a soldier or true to herself.

Now we have one of the most vocal people from that thread here demanding that another woman have the traits that he wants.

Continue to deride me when i call out the sexism, though.

You came in here looking for a fight.  You're calling me sexist when what I've said can only be misconstrued as sexist if that's the slant you're going for.  In short I'm not being sexist.  I've also made no demands.  You're two for two.

Considering this looks like a vendetta you have against me I'll just report you and keep things moving. 

I don't have to slant at all. You want Bioware to change the female protagonist to fit into your conception of what a woman should be. You don't want her to be "butch," which is a subjective term you've decided to label her with.

That is sexism. You're being sexist. Report all you want.

[Hathur]

Seboist wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Femshep's lack of muscle mass coupled with her using sheploo's animations makes moments like her carrying Kaidan over her shoulder on Virmire and punching out Turians look pretty ridiculous.

Take your pick between "microfiber muscle weave" and a reminder Bruce Lee has weighted ~140 pounds, too. There's more to the muscles than just sheer mass.

True, but femshep has the EXACT same body as Kelly and Chakwas. I have a hard time picturing her bony arms not shattering upon impact, let alone being able to damage anyone.

And yet a half-inch diameter steel rod can impale and kill the strongest man in the world with relative ease.

Give a steel rod to a 5 year old and let him hit you... he'll hospitilize you if you don't fight back.

Shepard's bones, muscles & tissue are immensely synthetically enhanced (as described in the health upgrades in game)... the body doesn't need to be bulky and heavy to deliver traumatic force when it's made of materials immensely stronger than normal human calcium based bones and soft flesh.

From a practical point of view... Shep is small cus the developers were too lazy to make a unique body for her different from all the civilian / regular females.

It's the same reason Joker is as big & built as male Shepard.. despite his glass bones.

Oh and as far as OP go... I don't find femshep "butch" at all... Though I'll agree rigging her frame to the male animation skeleton was a lazy / silly idea.. she walks as if she weights 220 pounds and has the frame of a professional body builder when she isntead looks to weight 150-160lbs and has the frame of a maraton runner.

Modifié par Hathur, 13 juin 2011 - 02:41 .

[crimzontearz]

it's a voiceacting issue

Mark Meer is seen badly because he is "too bland", while he actually tries to be neutral not to ruin the player's immersion giving emphasis to things the player might not have intended

on the other hand femshepard's voice actress is ALWAYS over-delivering and giving way too much emphasis, usually she is praised for it (by comparison to Meer) until you realize that it begins to grate on your nerves because she tries to pass off WAY too badass, assertive and masculine all the time

[KBomb]

crimzontearz wrote...

it's a voiceacting issue

Mark Meer is seen badly because he is "too bland", while he actually tries to be neutral not to ruin the player's immersion giving emphasis to things the player might not have intended

on the other hand femshepard's voice actress is ALWAYS over-delivering and giving way too much emphasis, usually she is praised for it (by comparison to Meer) until you realize that it begins to grate on your nerves because she tries to pass off WAY too badass, assertive and masculine all the time

I have never thought of that defense while talking about Mark Meer’s VA. Very good explanation on it though. Especially since I am a huge Mark Meer fan.

EDIT: I am aware my post has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Just wanted to give you props for your view point.

Modifié par KBomb, 13 juin 2011 - 02:45 .

[KainrycKarr]

D.Kain wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

There's a difference between breaking stereotypes and trying to sound like a man.

I've never met a military woman who talks as low and gruff as Hale does in her role as femshep.

You cant sound like a man unless you have adams apple.

Are you saying Jennifer Hale equips an adams apple before you does her femshep work?

[SkittlesKat96]

Yeah I also wish they could tone it down just a little bit in some areas but still make it so she isn't too toned down and is still a forceful and assertive person

Cause it seems like she has an extra male chromosome or something sometimes (a lot of women athletes and body builders have been found to have an extra male chromosome that other women don't have) so technically it is actually true that naturally women are meant to not be as tough as men, I still think its okay if she is really tough though...sometimes though I agree that its a bit unneccessary and I wish they could change some of the animations just a little bit

[tmp7704]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

To the OP: It's pretty simple. In ME1 FemShep got some attention (animation-wise) from the devs, but in ME2 that was lost. BW didn't think it was important enough. So she shares the same animations with MaleShep.

You know, i'm not sure if people aren't just remembering fondly something that actually wasn't there when it comes to ME1... because it sure as heck seems that these run animations and others were shared in the first game, too.

 male Shepard
 female Shepard

i suspect what happened with ME2 is more of the case someone felt their male Shepard didn't feel "tough enough"... but the change(s) affected female Shepard as well and now some people can't cope.

[SkittlesKat96]

KBomb wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

it's a voiceacting issue

Mark Meer is seen badly because he is "too bland", while he actually tries to be neutral not to ruin the player's immersion giving emphasis to things the player might not have intended

on the other hand femshepard's voice actress is ALWAYS over-delivering and giving way too much emphasis, usually she is praised for it (by comparison to Meer) until you realize that it begins to grate on your nerves because she tries to pass off WAY too badass, assertive and masculine all the time

I have never thought of that defense while talking about Mark Meer’s VA. Very good explanation on it though. Especially since I am a huge Mark Meer fan.

I still think that the female Shepard voice actor is good but Mark Meer is still pretty unappreciated too so its good to see some Mark Meer fans...

He voice acts Shepard, the Vorcha, Mordin Solus in the E3 demo (he did an excellent cover job) and he voiced Jethann the gay elf in DA 2, he's a great voice actor and he can change his voice very well

Modifié par SkittlesKat96, 13 juin 2011 - 02:47 .

[Ryzaki]

Tmp: HIP WIGGLE!

I miss my dude Shep's hip wiggle T_T

[crimzontearz]

KBomb wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

it's a voiceacting issue

Mark Meer is seen badly because he is "too bland", while he actually tries to be neutral not to ruin the player's immersion giving emphasis to things the player might not have intended

on the other hand femshepard's voice actress is ALWAYS over-delivering and giving way too much emphasis, usually she is praised for it (by comparison to Meer) until you realize that it begins to grate on your nerves because she tries to pass off WAY too badass, assertive and masculine all the time

I have never thought of that defense while talking about Mark Meer’s VA. Very good explanation on it though. Especially since I am a huge Mark Meer fan.

EDIT: I am aware my post has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Just wanted to give you props for your view point.

this defense has been around since ME1 actually

MArk Meer has an amazing range of voiceacting, hell he plays Niftu Cal, the Biotic God. He is great, he chooses not to give too much emphasis to avoid the forced end result given by his female counterpart