335 réponses à ce sujet

[Xeranx]

diskoh wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

diskoh wrote...

And you guys thought I was dumb for calling the anti-Ashley change people sexists. I told you that it was incredibly sexist to demand that a woman wear what you insist or she can't be a soldier or true to herself.

Now we have one of the most vocal people from that thread here demanding that another woman have the traits that he wants.

Continue to deride me when i call out the sexism, though.

You came in here looking for a fight.  You're calling me sexist when what I've said can only be misconstrued as sexist if that's the slant you're going for.  In short I'm not being sexist.  I've also made no demands.  You're two for two.

Considering this looks like a vendetta you have against me I'll just report you and keep things moving. 

I don't have to slant at all. You want Bioware to change the female protagonist to fit into your conception of what a woman should be. You don't want her to be "butch," which is a subjective term you've decided to label her with.

That is sexism. You're being sexist. Report all you want.

Yes you do.  I used butch - put in quotes and made the distinction "for lack of a better word" or do you not remember?  

And no my post is not sexist if I'm recognizing her as strong and asking (that's synonymous with request; not demand) that she reflect that again.  I even gave examples of strong women in other media two of which (as far as I know) are written by a feminist.

Also Merriam Webster defines sexism as:
1
   : prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against women
2
   : behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex
source: http://www.merriam-w...=0&t=1307933009

I'm not discriminating against women and what stereotype am I trying to foster in my op?  That she spend time by the fire and knit?

Edit: Formatting

Modifié par Xeranx, 13 juin 2011 - 02:52 .

[Raiil]

Clonedzero wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...



right, but she's not a basic soldier. she's an N7, highly trained special forces. and they tend to train them for their strengths.

I would argue that they train them for strength, period. N7s, at least as far as I can tell, are supposed to be the ultimate soldier. Strong, fast, intelligent (hell, apparently we can all hack Illium's systems and I doubt they're running the galactic version of Windows Vista)- Shepard needs to have it all. The amount of resources it would take to train each one individually in a specific prowess, no matter how small the N7 class may be, would still be ridiculous and a waste of time. All of our individuality comes from our class, not our 'basic training', as it were.

That is, however, just my opinion on the matter. 

training for strength based hand to hand combat is probably the least efficent way to do it lol regardless of sex. being trained for overpowering attacks isnt going to help you take on a krogan who will be stronger no matter what.

What I'm saying is that when it comes to basic training- including said hand to hand, evasive moves, vaulting, etc, Shepard is unlikely to have specialised training/tactics based on their height/weight. It's going to be the same across the board- what Shepard chooses to specialise in, in our headcanon, is the variant. As an IRL example, my brother and I both did martial arts training, but how we fight is ultimately different based on personal preference. That preference is basically in your head.

[onelifecrisis]

tmp7704 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

To the OP: It's pretty simple. In ME1 FemShep got some attention (animation-wise) from the devs, but in ME2 that was lost. BW didn't think it was important enough. So she shares the same animations with MaleShep.

You know, i'm not sure if people aren't just remembering fondly something that actually wasn't there when it comes to ME1... because it sure as heck seems that these run animations and others were shared in the first game, too.

 male Shepard
 female Shepard

i suspect what happened with ME2 is more of the case someone felt their male Shepard didn't feel "tough enough"... but the change(s) affected female Shepard as well and now some people can't cope.

Can't speak for others, but I agree with all of that. Taken from my earlier post in this thread:

onelifecrisis wrote...

This has bothered me since ME1. It's most noticable when running/walking/sprinting in exploration mode, which I believe is a hand-made animation designed to strike a mid-point between the way men and women walk. The result is a mShep who walks a bit like a woman, and a fShep who walks a bit like a man.

[KBomb]

crimzontearz wrote...

this defense has been around since ME1 actually

MArk Meer has an amazing range of voiceacting, hell he plays Niftu Cal, the Biotic God. He is great, he chooses not to give too much emphasis to avoid the forced end result given by his female counterpart

I agree. He is pretty fantastic.

[diskoh]

Xeranx wrote...
Yes you do.  I used butch - put in quotes and made the distinction "for lack of a better word" or do you not remember? 

Umm you still said that she was butch, you can put it in quotes all you want. If I say you're an "idiot" for lack of a better word, it doesn't make much difference does it? (Just an example, i'd never call you an idiot)

And no my post is not sexist if I'm recognizing her as strong and asking (that's synonymous with request; not demand) that she reflect that again.  I even gave examples of strong women in other media two of which (as far as I know) are written by a feminist.

I would hope you recognize her as strong since she's the same character in just about every way as the male character and accomplishes the same thing. But recognizing that she's strong doesn't change that you want her to change to fit in with what makes you comfortable regarding her femininity.

what stereotype am I trying to foster in my op?  That she spend time by the fire and knit?

That she has to walk and move a certain way.

The bottom line, a very easy yes or no question: Do you want Bioware to change the animations for the female Shepard to fit how you think a woman should carry herself?

If the answer's no, I don't understand what you want. If the answer is yes, then ask yourself if you aren't perhaps really being a bit sexist and if so should you reevaluate?

[onelifecrisis]

tmp7704 wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

Those are world class 200m sprinters. Their pelvic bones will be as masculine as a woman's can be.

Watch that video again and tell me with straight face the woman on the right has a masculine figure. The wikipedia link you provide lists pelvic width as one of biological factors which determine potential, but that's all it says. It doesn't even say in what way it affects that potential. And obviously, it's just one factor out of eighth.

I said a masculine pelvis, not a masculine figure. Don't go all D.Kain on me now.

Honestly, the rest of what you said is both ignorant of the subject matter and indicative of a determination to stay that way.

[tmp7704]

onelifecrisis wrote...

I said a masculine pelvis, not a masculine figure. Don't go all D.Kain on me now.

One is closely related to the other so i'm not seeing your point here. Specifically in the context of pelvis width affecting the running potential, "masculine pelvis" means one with less width, and  would consequently mean a figure with far less pronounced hip curve than the one we can observe.

If i need to put it in exact terms so you don't try to play semantics with me, the pelvis of the woman in the video i mentioned appears perfectly feminine. Apparently her other strengths were enough to allow her to be world-class sprinter just the same.

[KBomb]

diskoh wrote...


That she has to walk and move a certain way.

The bottom line, a very easy yes or no question: Do you want Bioware to change the animations for the female Shepard to fit how you think a woman should carry herself?

If the answer's no, I don't understand what you want. If the answer is yes, then ask yourself if you aren't perhaps really being a bit sexist and if so should you reevaluate?

Well to be fair, if he did have a preference to a way a woman walks, it isn’t being sexist. He isn’t saying FemShep is inferior, or that her walk shouldn’t be as “manly” as MaleShep because MaleShep is the true bad-ass. That would be sexist. Sexism is an over-used word, an over-abused word. Having preference in a way a woman walks or talks or moves is just that--a preference. I don’t think he is demanding Bioware change the way she walks because it disgusts him, or doesn’t fill the view he has of females in general. I think he is saying that he would like to see her move and act in a way that is preferential to his taste, and he isn’t alone obviously because I remember this issue being discussed on other forums when ME2 came out, as well as on BSN. I feel this way myself.

You may say you disagree with his opinions. But to call someone a sexist because they wish to see a woman walk in a more ideal feminine fashion isn’t sexist. Saying that a woman should act more feminine in general isn’t sexist either--only when they use it to make a woman less than her male counterpart is it sexist. I can say all day long that I don’t like woman who spit because it‘s unladylike. That isn’t sexist. If I said, only men can spit, women should know their place! Is it sexist.

[MissMaster]

No mater how bad ass FemShep is she needs to move like a woman.

[D.Kain]

onelifecrisis wrote...

 Don't go all D.Kain on me now.

 
Chill out, I was just speakin my mind from experience around me, not wiki and science.

Btw, thing you mentioned before half/male/female, I think its perfect, better than both male or different.

[Raiil]

MissMaster wrote...

No mater how bad ass FemShep is she needs to move like a woman.

Until someone can explain what that is without it translating to 'Femshep needs to move how I think women should move', it's not a realistic request.

[crimzontearz]

Valentia X wrote...

MissMaster wrote...

No mater how bad ass FemShep is she needs to move like a woman.

Until someone can explain what that is without it translating to 'Femshep needs to move how I think women should move', it's not a realistic request.

Femshepard needs to move with a female motioncap range and not a copied and pasted MALE motioncap  range


better?

Modifié par crimzontearz, 13 juin 2011 - 03:24 .

[D.Kain]

Valentia X wrote...

MissMaster wrote...

No mater how bad ass FemShep is she needs to move like a woman.

Until someone can explain what that is without it translating to 'Femshep needs to move how I think women should move', it's not a realistic request.

[ladyvader]

MissMaster wrote...

No mater how bad ass FemShep is she needs to move like a woman.

Why?  Did Aveline in DA2 move like a woman?  No she did not.  She moved like a soldier and so does Shepard.  

This is a female that went through N7 training and is a commando/special ops.  Being butch is on par with any one going through that type of training.

[ERJAK2]

Clonedzero wrote...

when i saw the vid of femshep in LotSB rushing the shadowbroker and slamming the shield i laughed at how silly it looked.

shoulda had a more believable scene/animation for femshep than brute forcing it like maleshep.

i agree with you, having her be super butch and do all the same actions as maleshep comes across as awkward and goofy.

What would you have had her done? Cry at him? Femshep, because of her upgrades, is physically at Krogan level strength. She can brute force anything she wants.

Modifié par ERJAK2, 13 juin 2011 - 03:26 .

[MissMaster]

MissMaster wrote...

No mater how bad ass FemShep is she needs to move like a woman.

Valentia X wrote...



Until someone can explain what that is without it translating to 'Femshep needs to move how I think women should move', it's not a realistic request.

What? It's obvious that woman move different then men its a fact of body language. She need to be motion captured by a woman so she does not look like a truck driver when she runs or sits with her legs wide open in a dress. Herp.

[Massadonious1]

Only if they can nab someone with similar characteristics, like an actual enlisted soldier. If it's just going to be some average woman who can't pick up a firearm, much less shoot one, then they shouldn't waste the time or money.

Modifié par Massadonious1, 13 juin 2011 - 03:27 .

[crimzontearz]

ladyvader wrote...

MissMaster wrote...

No mater how bad ass FemShep is she needs to move like a woman.

Why?  Did Aveline in DA2 move like a woman?  No she did not.  She moved like a soldier and so does Shepard.  

This is a female that went through N7 training and is a commando/special ops.  Being butch is on par with any one going through that type of training.

I have seen some female marines fresh out of camp Lejeune (or however the hell you spell it)..they still walked like girls in their civvies so.................

[D.Kain]

MissMaster wrote...


What? It's obvious that woman move different then men its a fact of body language. She need to be motion captured by a woman so she does not look like a truck driver when she runs or sits with her legs wide open in a dress. Herp.

Only if its an MMA woman.

Modifié par D.Kain, 13 juin 2011 - 03:28 .

[Xeranx]

diskoh wrote...

Umm you still said that she was butch, you can put it in quotes all you want. If I say you're an "idiot" for lack of a better word, it doesn't make much difference does it? (Just an example, i'd never call you an idiot)

It actually does make a difference if I attempt to explain what I meant.  If I had left it alone people would have to assume what my interpretation was.  By giving examples I made a distinction as to what I saw.  In regards to your scenario there'd be more tact involved.  Perhaps I should have said manly, but that might have brought more ire than I already received.

diskoh wrote...
I would hope you recognize her as strong since she's the same character in just about every way as the male character and accomplishes the same thing. But recognizing that she's strong doesn't change that you want her to change to fit in with what makes you comfortable regarding her femininity.

How do you know what makes me comfortable regarding her femininity?  You're making assumptions when I clearly said I would like a return to what was present in ME1.  I'm sorry you don't agree with my assessment that the way she moved and the way she sounded was good and didn't need to be changed, but (please) don't try and tell me what makes me comfortable.

diskoh wrote...
That she has to walk and move a certain way.

The bottom line, a very easy yes or no question: Do you want Bioware to change the animations for the female Shepard to fit how you think a woman should carry herself?

If the answer's no, I don't understand what you want. If the answer is yes, then ask yourself if you aren't perhaps really being a bit sexist and if so should you reevaluate?

No.  I would like Bioware to re-instate the animations and guide the voice work so that it resembles what was present in the first game.  I would like them to put back what they removed.  Not because it makes me comfortable, after all I have somewhere around 6 female Shepard playthroughs as it is with all but two being straight runs from ME to ME2, but because I feel it was unnecessary to not have them in ME2.

[MissMaster]

ladyvader wrote...

Why?  Did Aveline in DA2 move like a woman?  No she did not.  She moved like a soldier and so does Shepard.  

This is a female that went through N7 training and is a commando/special ops.  Being butch is on par with any one going through that type of training.

I'm not saying to get a super model to motion capture her. Not her combat motions her walking and sitting looked lol worthy.

Really? I'm I the only one that cringed when FemShep ordered a drink at the bar.

Sorry it's just my
*Unpopular Opinion.*

Modifié par MissMaster, 13 juin 2011 - 03:29 .

[MissMaster]

D.Kain wrote...

Only if its an MMA woman.

That's fine, but even MMA female fighters move diffrent then men. It's a fact.

[ERJAK2]

this is a stupid argument and giving them unique sexier running animations or whatever would be a waste of resources.

The only dumber argument is the ashley catsuit thing.

[crimzontearz]

ERJAK2 wrote...

this is a stupid argument and giving them unique sexier running animations or whatever would be a waste of resources.

The only dumber argument is the ashley catsuit thing.

to some it is rather jarring

I honestly am not sensitive to the issue since I play Maleshapeard

[D.Kain]

ERJAK2 wrote...

this is a stupid argument and giving them unique sexier running animations or whatever would be a waste of resources.

The only dumber argument is the ashley catsuit thing.

I think Catsuit is easier to fix.