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I hope the next ME has REAL villains this time...


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#1
Ron Stoppable

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Here's a little rant of mine. I know, I know, TL;DR. But I just had this thought and decided to put it down real quick.

Oh yea, spoilers abound. Also. I'm sure there's loads of typos. I'm apologizing in advance.

Who's the bad guy?

ME2 was a success because it addressed many of the technical issues with ME1, but one area in which ME2 faulters from the first game is narrative structure and diversed character development -- mainly it lacked any true antagonist.

Sure, ME2 creates plenty of likable teammates and pits them in interesting situations to make you care, but does ME2 actually make you genuinely hate someone?

Let's look at the potential "villians"

Collectors: Before the game they're portrayed as these mysertious, mthyical bodysnatchers that work with precision. In reality, they're just the new replacement for the Geth. They're simply drones with no personality, and since we see them so early in the game, the opportunity to build up this "hate" against them doesn't exist. By the time they do something that is directly emotional/engaging to the character, it's too late. Also, there isn't one leadaer Collector that can personify them all..."but wait!", you're screaming. "What about..."

Harbinger: This can't count as a villain. There's never a true reveal. The first time Shepard encounters him is during a battle with little fanfare. Actually, during the entire game I don't think Shepard directly acknowleges him til after the last mission. There's no rapport here, no build up. Harbinger isn't given any mysterious allure or anything for us to attach a negative emotion to him. He's just a collector with funny one-liners for 99% of the game. Where was his "oh snap!" Virmire moment? (More on that later)

Illusive Man - He's the easy pick, and sure, by the end of the game the player may be fed up with his BS, but at the same time, he pulls double-duty as a necessary evil to push the plot along, so as a player you can't hate him too much because he's feeding you info and, at least for the time being, his questionable actions seem to be an ends to a means. As mentioned, the last few hours of the game switch this up greatly, but again, too little too late. The player should've been in a position to clash with him earilier, and in a more definitive way. I'm not sure how that would've impacted Bioware's over-arching story, but he's simply not enough.

Aria - Again, great potential to make a cool, antagonist mob boss character wasted. Though she's stlll cool and I'm expecting her to have a more prominent role in 3. So there's still hope she can be a deep character (good or bad)

All the Gangs - They're all just goons, hard to really create a negative bond with any of them. Again, Aria could've been the personification of all of them, but they didn't go that route (not too mad about Aria. Still an interesting character). 

Now let's go back and look at ME1 villians/antagonists

Benezia - This is easy, and Bioware nailed it by creating a direct connection: Liara. So we have some context, which is always a good start for a great villian, though she's probably the weakest of them all in the game. She also lets the Thorian loose, destroying an entire human colony. So there's some personal context between her and Shep, though not much. This is different than any of the Collector invasions because we get to interact with the town's people before the colony is (potentially) lost. So we see the locals trying to help, we see some resisting, etc. There's just so much conflict and context created that we at least feel something for the people of Zhu's Hope. And all of that is tied to Benezia. Solid set-up. Not amazing, but a decent antagonist.

Udina - He's just an a-hole. A fantastic A-hole and represents everything wrong with politics. See again: context. We hate him because he's the personification of something we all hate to some degree: politics. Everyone hates politicians and Udina is the great bad policitan. Not only that but his actions create a direct relationship with Shepared when he grounds the Normandy, not to mention his overall pro-human position and questionable stance on your alian crew in his fancy new Alliance ship. He could've been so much more, though. He could've been the Palpatine to Anderson's Obi-wan. But alas, wishful thinking. Udina was a great character to hate. Like seriously, who picked him to join the council over Anderson? Exactly.

The Council: Their intentions are good, and their actions (mostly) justifiable, but through the game we get to develop this rapport with them that starts out pretty good, then trancends to grey, then they just loose all faith and ground you, halting your mission. Again, like Udina they personify the restrictive, diplomatic BS branch of politics and government. Great at times, totally effing up at other times. But this context exists with them that the player genuinely cares when they do something to hault my progress. It's so strong because you feel as though they have your back for once, letting you work as you pelase, then all of a sudden that's gone and you're back to square one. Also, the 3 members create a great dichotomy - all representing a different level of trust/emotion/personality trait. It's a great 3-headed monster and again, is managed and maintained throughout the entire game: from becoming a Spectre all the way to the arrival of Soverign. Great situational antagonist.

The Geth - Not much to say. Just a better rendition of the collectors. The perfect "Storm Trooper" characters.

Saren/Soverign - I don't really need to go into these two. I think we can all agree they are probably the strongest antagonists in the series thus far. And collectively they created myriad reasons for the player to hate them in some way, shape or form: Eden Prime, Saren's constant BS with the council, with him essentially manipulating everyone, playing games with Shepard. He just comes off as such a pompous-yet genius **** who is completely aware of his actions and his ability to control situations. Also, after the player's decisions on Virmire, you want dudes head on a platter. What a fantastic setup. He seems like a worthy adversary and the player cannot wait for the invetiable showdown. But it gets even better becasue he's not one-dimensional. We learn so much about him through the last half of the game that by the time for the final faceoff, the player can be semi-conflicted. That was a great little twist, espeically considering all he'd done up to that point.

Why couldn't we have a guy like this in Me2? Why couldn't Harbinger find yet another agent to work through other than the mindless collectors? I think this is the key missing ingredient from ME2: No Saren replacement.

As for Soveriegn. He's not really the focal point. He has Saren to do all his bidding/talking, etc. But just that one encounter, when all the sh*t hits the fan, you can't wait to take him down. The second you meet him, his arrogance just pours through, and instantly the player develops this great negative connection with him. But at the same time, I have no idea how to take him out, or even if I can take him out. So I'm a little apprehensive - he might be out of my league. This simple distinction is what separates him from Saren: doubt. As a character, I can't wait to fight Saren, but for Soveriegn, I don't even know where to start. And not just that, even If I somehow take him down, I know there's potentially millions more. Wtf? That doubt is powerful and helps propell the last 1/3 of the game as one fo the greatest sections in gaming history. By the time you complete Virmire you're in sensory overload. So much context is blown in your face, and now it's on. And you can't wait to at least try and tackle the seemingly insurmountable odds. And then the council grounds you...

F*CK!!

See? See how much a little characrer development, relationship and context can go to developing hate towards a character? That was a fantastic segment and Bioware nailed every aspect of it. Through ME2 I was waiting for my Virmire moment and it never came. The whole "collectors on your ship" nonsense seemed way too contrived and had little effect on me, personally. Yea it sucked, and yea I wanted my crew back, but the setup was flat, and as mentioned earlier, the collectors just weren't strong enough as antagonists for me to truly care.

Well, that's my rant. I hope Bioware addresses this in ME3. I hope the develop the Illusive Man into a great villian. But I hope there's more. I hope we get another "alpha dog" Repear, or maybe they develop Harbinger more. Who knows. But we need villians, we need bad guys. That's what drives the action and that's what keeps us engaged. ME2 was great, but could've truly been perfect with more visible characters for the player to personify negative emotions.

Modifié par Ron Stoppable, 12 juin 2011 - 11:42 .


#2
Schneidend

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A single, iconic antagonist is not a prerequisite to telling a good story. The Big Bad Evil Guy is a trope, and like any other it can be misused, played to great effect, or left out entirely.

#3
Clonedzero

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gross. i dont want a villian.

i want an antagonist. yes theres a HUGE difference.

i dont want some shmuck going "bwhahaha im evil bwhahaha helping the reapers, bwhahaha!"
i'd much rather have someone who's also against the reapers, and is actively trying to stop them using their own methods and achieving their own goals that directly conflicts with shepards. just being evil is boring.

#4
Ron Stoppable

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I agree. and I think Saren was the perfect middle ground. He wasn't some goofy "Dr. Claw" type villain. He felt emotionally engaging to the character. The same is true for pretty much every antagonist in ME1. Bioware's smart enough to not make a goofy villain like that. I just felt ME2 was too emotionally displaced. I didn't feel like there was any character for me to place all of my character's anger/hate on.

Modifié par Ron Stoppable, 12 juin 2011 - 10:44 .


#5
Volus Warlord

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Bioware has too much sympathy for their villians to make them hate-able.

Saren-Grey background, but deceived, controlled, misguided

TIM- Grey background, and if the whole indoctrination theory holds up, deceived, controlled, misguided.

Collecters/Geth-Faceless and unpersonalized.

Soverign/Harbinger/Reapers: Sort of a bogeyman; not so much a personal enemy as a background fear.

Udina: Eh. Too flat and predictable.

#6
Gorskijesih

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Don't worry about that. We have the Reapers as the overarcing enemy with Harbinger as their leader, but we can't really get close and personal with them.

However, with Cerberus against us, I'm sure we'll get not one but TWO Saren type villains: Obviously the Illusive Man and his trusty assassin, Kai Leng.

#7
GreenDragon37

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I agree with everything you said. We need more good villains. That's probably why I didn't like ME2's main story as much as ME1. Sovereign and Saren were the "faces of evil". Always one step ahead, mocking you, toying with you. Plus I like how you threw in the Council and Udina. They were always bad-mouthing you and they had the power to impede you.

That's what ME3 needs: real antagonists.

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 12 juin 2011 - 11:09 .


#8
hexaligned

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Faceless "Force of Nature" type antagonist are less interesting, I agree. I don't think every game NEEDS a knowable relatable villain, but I personally enjoy those more.

#9
Tyrannosaurus Rex

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Gorskijesih wrote...
However, with Cerberus against us, I'm sure we'll get not one but TWO Saren type villains: Obviously the Illusive Man and his trusty assassin, Kai Leng.


Anyone else dreading that Bioware is going to turn TIM into a Saren clone?. Gven what we saw of TIM in ME2, I think he would make a terrible Saren clone.

It would also just seem contrived and unnecesary IMO.

#10
GreenDragon37

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Lizardviking wrote...

Gorskijesih wrote...
However, with Cerberus against us, I'm sure we'll get not one but TWO Saren type villains: Obviously the Illusive Man and his trusty assassin, Kai Leng.


Anyone else dreading that Bioware is going to turn TIM into a Saren clone?. Gven what we saw of TIM in ME2, I think he would make a terrible Saren clone.

It would also just seem contrived and unnecesary IMO.


We only know that they are both working against Shephard. We don't really know if their agendas are the same.

#11
Ron Stoppable

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Well we know from the E3 demo's that Cerberus seems to be indoctrinated. So if that's the case. The Illusive Man may take on a Saren-like role. Can't say I'd hate that. Though I hope it goes far beyond that.

#12
GreenDragon37

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Ron Stoppable wrote...

Well we know from the E3 demo's that Cerberus seems to be indoctrinated. So if that's the case. The Illusive Man may take on a Saren-like role. Can't say I'd hate that. Though I hope it goes far beyond that.


Technically, only Shep says thay, and Shep isn't all knowing. That's probably just what he thinks because they're trying to stop the man who is trying to to stop the Reapers.

Casey never said Cerberus was indoctrinated, just that they were working against Shep. Indoctrination is the simplist, easiest way, but we'll see.

#13
Khran1505

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I can agree on one thing, ME1 presented us with a deep, dark and powerfully intimidating villain. The best part of it all was Saren was painted as an anti-villain. His intentions to save the galaxy wound up being the reason we nearly suffered another Reaper invasion. He was sympathetic in a way but also someone we love to hate. We knew his deep racism with humanity was motivation enough to attack us at first but when we learned the truth, we realized just how far he fell into the Reapers' control. It was just grand.

ME2 presented us with something a little different. The Reapers are the villains, we know that. What we didn't have was an 'individual' antagonist like ME1. Harbinger didn't come across as anything of a major nemesis, rather just the boss guy getting pissed that his drones couldn't shoot for hell and decided to do things himself. Aside from him and the Collectors, there were no real villains here. Infact, the Shadow Broker himself came across as a greater villain. There was so much build up to him but so much mystery as well. We heard so much but knew so little. And when we finally reached him, we felt the sense of dread and overwhelming horror he gave us with his mere presence (coupled with the awesome music track).

Not that I say ME2 had crap villains. Harbinger was a great antagonist and his efforts to turn all of humanity into a Reaper? That was a great plan that really shows just how looming and frightening he can be on us all. Once again, we were a step away from extinction because of the Reapers. The only problem is there was no real build up to his eventual appearance. Sure, it was really fighting these possessed Collector drones some of us might have assumed was the Collector General but really there was no sense of how DARK and MENACING Harbinger was in sheer presence. Infact, he came across as more spine tingling when I spoke to him personally in the Arrival DLC, and that was just for a mere moment. The fact there was little build up to himself as an individual as well as little interaction up till Arrival really made him suffer as the key villain.

Saren and Sovereign for me will remain the best villains of the ME franchise for now. I will look forward to ME3 and hope BioWare outdo themselves here and give us the same thing we got from Saren, Sovereign and even the Shadow Broker plus more. Whether it's with Harbinger or whatever else that might be worse out there.

#14
DarthSlim108

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OP, have you seen what the Reapers do to Earth in the trailers? If they don't count as villains, I don't know what does. Plus, we'll have to fight Cerberus, so the Illusive Man could be a major villain as well.

#15
Kai Hohiro

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1. You have TIM
2. Kai Leng is confirmed to be in the game. Basically if Shepard and Saren had a baby, that would be this guy.

Nothing to worry about here

#16
DarthSlim108

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Kai Hohiro wrote...

1. You have TIM
2. Kai Leng is confirmed to be in the game. Basically if Shepard and Saren had a baby, that would be this guy.

Nothing to worry about here


But my Shepard's a dude, so how would that work...?

#17
The Unfallen

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I can't wait to kill TIM and lay the smack down on his lap-dog Kai Leng.

#18
OH-UP-THIS!

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Are we trying to play the same franchise here?
This isn't Batman, or some JRPG tossed at us, it is actually a fun franchise with many villians, so i think you've lost your sense of direction.
Best to head over to Steam, i hear there are many villianous types in there, take your pick.

#19
Ron Stoppable

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DarthSlim108 wrote...

OP, have you seen what the Reapers do to Earth in the trailers? If they don't count as villains, I don't know what does. Plus, we'll have to fight Cerberus, so the Illusive Man could be a major villain as well.


Yea. But like I said, they're displaced. There's no "head reaper" for me from fixate my hate on. you could say it's Harbinger, but he was such a non-factor in ME2 that I can't say I have any real "hate" for his character. I'm hoping ME3 changes that.

There's still plenty of time to bill TIM and Harbinger as great villains. But like Bioware has said from the beginning, ME2 was the dark middle chapter and it's hard to shove in all these new characters and build a new antagonist in a middle chapter. So they simply introduced us to a few and hopeilly they'll build on them in 3.

#20
JeffZero

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Schneidend wrote...

A single, iconic antagonist is not a prerequisite to telling a good story. The Big Bad Evil Guy is a trope, and like any other it can be misused, played to great effect, or left out entirely.


I agree. All the same, although I think ME2's approach worked fantastically for its place in the trilogy, I am hoping for a couple of individual, hate-inspiring antagonists in ME3.

#21
Ron Stoppable

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ohupthis wrote...

Are we trying to play the same franchise here?
This isn't Batman, or some JRPG tossed at us, it is actually a fun franchise with many villians, so i think you've lost your sense of direction.
Best to head over to Steam, i hear there are many villianous types in there, take your pick.


Did you even read my post? Like, at all?

#22
TheCrakFox

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I thought there was room in ME2's plot for the Shadow Broker and Tazzik to show up as antagonists, trying to reclaim their investment. It would also make LotSB an even sweeter epilogue.

#23
shumworld

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Kai Hohiro wrote...
Kai Leng is confirmed to be in the game. Basically if Shepard and Saren had a baby, that would be this guy.

Nothing to worry about here


I read his wiki. Sounds interesting. Hope he's someone I can identify as a arch-rival. Though as a Sole Survivor the Thrasher Maw are my ultimate nemesis. They are the sharks from JAWs are to my Martin Brody.

#24
Kai Hohiro

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DarthSlim108 wrote...

Kai Hohiro wrote...

1. You have TIM
2. Kai Leng is confirmed to be in the game. Basically if Shepard and Saren had a baby, that would be this guy.

Nothing to worry about here


But my Shepard's a dude, so how would that work...?


Kai Leng is so badass he could even make that work.

#25
OH-UP-THIS!

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LOL you are joking right?
I read the titles of the paragraphs.
They're all dead save for TIM, Aria, Udina(who by the way should be), why do you ask?
Real villians? what do you normally play? Villians.......good god, did I just fall into a pointless discussion?