75 réponses à ce sujet

[sphinxess]

Marethari was the cookie in front of the cookie monster. Merrill would have been a rock. Marethan is the one that believed everything the demon told her.

[Sarielle]

Lol, okay, well maybe I'm not in as much a minority as I thought with the "It's all Marethari's fault" theory.

[TEWR]

I'm saying that since it was trapped for centuries and couldn't escape (as Marethari herself even said in the short story) Merrill was safe from the thing. He couldn't just break free. Merrill said that only a powerful spell could free him (which Marethari did). And Merrill had no intention of freeing the demon. She went up there to find out more information on the Eluvian but was unsure of what just might transpire, so she asked Hawke to accompany her.

[DPSSOC]

And had the demon made it's freedom a condition of it's cooperation? Do you really think Merrill would just stop, just give up on trying to fix the mirror? Now I like Merrill, but she isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer and she's fanatically fixated on that thing. It would not have been difficult for the demon to manipulate her into doing what it wanted. It's similar to the Chantry's set up with the Templars, it's easy to control and manipulate people who desperately need what only you can provide.

[TEWR]

Honestly? Yes I do. Especially given the Night Terrors quest where she vows to be more careful because she's using blood magic.

She is not dumb like people make her out to be. She is probably the 3rd smartest mage we've seen. Flemeth and Morrigan top her in that regard.

And not to mention after Marethari's blunder I can tell her to keep researching the Eluvian.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 juin 2011 - 03:26 .

[DPSSOC]

 No she's certainly not stupid but she isn't bright, clever if you prefer.  As evidence.  She's also, as I pointed out, fanatically devoted to that thing and I don't think anything short of the demon demanding she allow it to possess her would stop her.  She might try to find another way around, try to barter with the demon, but I have little doubt she'd eventually cave to anything shy of possession.  The Eluvian is all she's got, even if she does romance Hawke, she's not just going to walk away from it.

[Mr.House]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I can tell her to keep researching the Eluvian.

BINGO. What the OP seemed to miss is after Merrilsl quest, you can tell her what to do, it ranges from continuing studying the mirror, helping city elfs ect. Merrill will not become evil nor is she even remoatly close to becoming evil.

[TJPags]

DPSSOC wrote...

And had the demon made it's freedom a condition of it's cooperation? Do you really think Merrill would just stop, just give up on trying to fix the mirror? Now I like Merrill, but she isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer and she's fanatically fixated on that thing. It would not have been difficult for the demon to manipulate her into doing what it wanted. It's similar to the Chantry's set up with the Templars, it's easy to control and manipulate people who desperately need what only you can provide.

Yup, I can easily see this happening.  Merrill seems so sure of herself, and so sure she's not doing anything wrong, no matter who seems to question her.  I can easily see her thinking that either "I can handle the demon if it gets out" or "the demon's not actually evil, so it would be okay if I was possessed to get this knowledge".

Sorry, I know people love her and all, and think she's great, but she just seemed really dumb to me.

[LobselVith8]

Marcy3655 wrote...

Merrill will turn out to be an evil character in DA3???      

Why? She's the most informed person on magic and blood magic. Where even an abomination like Anders can't tell what type of demon is inhabiting the Profane Abomination, Merrill knows immediately that it's a Hunger Demon. She proficiently uses blood magic for several years without abusing it, she is adept enough at magic to tell whether a person is possessed or not, and she's looking to help her people by rediscovering ancient and forgotten technology - to the point where she's rebuilding a device her ancestors created that mystified even the Magisters of the Imperium.

Marcy3655 wrote...

I sure do..   and the crazy thing is I almost always end up romancing her because she is so cute and loveable and her story is so tragic...       

The plight of the People is tragic, as is her inability to help them because The Plot Dictates.

Marcy3655 wrote...

I am creating several new playthroughs without romancing her just in case she does turn out to be evil in the next installment of DA...      

M

In case she turns evil? Why would she turn evil? Merrill argues for mages, she is concerned about the people in the Alienage, she wants to help her clan even though they hate her, she argues against enslaving Fenris even when he's monstrous towards her, she argues against killing Anders even with all the vile things he's said about her, and the time she defects from Hawke's side is if he decides to commit genocide against an entire population of men, women, and children. Merrill is more proactive than Hawke and does more to help her people than Hawke ever does when he's only reacting to the situations around him instead of being proactive.

[Mr.House]

DPSSOC wrote...
The Eluvian is all she's got, even if she does romance Hawke, she's not just going to walk away from it.

Say that to the rivalromance

[TEWR]

DPSSOC wrote...

 No she's certainly not stupid but she isn't bright, clever if you prefer.  As evidence. 

Yes and that's in Act 1. She's unaccustomed to human civilization and using trickery and deceit to gain things from other people (she even tells you that the clan just gave her things that she needed. And she's only seen one human before: Duncan. The clan is all she's ever known) . Show me something from Act 2 or Act 3 where she starts to become more accustomed to human civilization where she isn't bright.

I will say though that scene does make me laugh. She's so darn cute in that scene!

 She's also, as I pointed out, fanatically devoted to that thing and I don't think anything short of the demon demanding she allow it to possess her would stop her.  

Key words being the bolded.

She might try to find another way around, try to barter with the demon, but I have little doubt she'd eventually cave to anything shy of possession.  The Eluvian is all she's got, even if she does romance Hawke, she's not just going to walk away from it.

Once again, it's what you personally think regarding Merrill and the Eluvian.

But for the record, if you romance her and she's kidnapped, the one thing she was most fearful of losing was Hawke. I believe that her genuine love for Hawke would also make her tell the demon to go f*ck itself with a pine tree.

So you feel she might cave in the cave. I don't.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 juin 2011 - 03:40 .

[LobselVith8]

Marcy3655 wrote...

I know what you mean, it's all the talk of blood magic and the mirror and demons, her clan being frightened of her, her somewhat enigmatic characterization, etc.. is what makes me think this way... I certainly hope I'm wrong because well... I fell in love with her from the first playthrough... lol

M

The clan is frightened of Merrill because Marethari is the same idiot who poisoned the clan against her, and then told Merrill in the same breath that she could abandon what she's doing and come back to the clan like nothing happened.

Marcy3655 wrote...

Sarielle wrote...

No, she seemed to be one of the more well-adjusted characters to me.

I agree, but there were just so many references to demons, blood magic, etc., that it is concerning, although I'm not opposed to playing an evil character.. but it's hard to say how that might change things in DA3...

however, if it's anything like previous sequels, it probably won't make any difference since romances seem not to carry over with the next game anyway...

M

There's discussions about demons and blood magic because Merrill doesn't view spirits and demons because she's not Andrastian, and the distinction is entirely Andrastian as Anders makes perfectly clear (as does the codex on the Maker's First Children); also, blood magic seems to be part of her people's heritage from Arlathan, so I can see this as another cultural difference between the Andrastian Anders and the Dalish Merrill who views her Arlathan heritage as crucially important.

[Mr.House]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The clan is frightened of Merrill because Marethari is the same idiot who poisoned the clan against her, and then told Merrill in the same breath that she could abandon what she's doing and come back to the clan like nothing happened.

Merrill is working on something that killed two(one) of there hunters and was corrupted by the darkspawn, I would have warned the clan too. Merrill was told by the demon the mirror would restore the past, Merrill believed it. If my first who I loved like a daughter told me that I would have acted the same way as the Keeper.

[TEWR]

Mr.House wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
The clan is frightened of Merrill because Marethari is the same idiot who poisoned the clan against her, and then told Merrill in the same breath that she could abandon what she's doing and come back to the clan like nothing happened.

Merrill is working on something that killed two(one) of there hunters and was corrupted by the darkspawn, I would have warned the clan too. Merrill was told by the demon the mirror would restore the past, Merrill believed it. If my first who I loved like a daughter told me that I would have acted the same way as the Keeper.

Would you have still warned the clan after Merrill told you repeatedly the shard was safe and cleansed? Because that's what she did.


And besides, there's no logic behind making a clan despise a person and than asking said person to return home as if no one will hate her. I doubt Marethari would've even told the clan that she was wrong and Merrill had in fact cleansed the shard. Because you know, it was once tainted and that means it's forever evil.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 juin 2011 - 03:49 .

[DPSSOC]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
No she's certainly not stupid but she isn't bright, clever if you prefer.  As evidence. 

Yes and that's in Act 1. She's unaccustomed to human civilization and using trickery and deceit to gain things from other people (she even tells you that the clan just gave her things that she needed. And she's only seen one human before: Duncan. The clan is all she's ever known) . Show me something from Act 2 or Act 3 where she starts to become more accustomed to human civilization where she isn't bright.

Give me some time (like days) as I have no real concept of when things happen so I'll have to replay the game through 2 and/or 3 to find the clip then look it up on YouTube.  I will concede that if that is early in the game (taking your word for it) she could clue in a bit more.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I will say though that scene does make me laugh. She's so darn cute in that scene!

Indeed she is.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Once again, it's what you personally think regarding Merrill and the Eluvian.

But for the record, if you romance her and she's kidnapped, the one thing she was most fearful of losing was Hawke. I believe that her genuine love for Hawke would also make her tell the demon to go f*ck itself with a pine tree.

So you feel she might cave in the cave. I don't.

Fair enough, maybe I'd have a better appreciation for Merrill's ability to deal with the demon if I romanced her, but through all my playthroughs the Eluvian has been her one rock in the storm and she ain't letting go.

[jlb524]

TJPags wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

And had the demon made it's freedom a condition of it's cooperation? Do you really think Merrill would just stop, just give up on trying to fix the mirror? Now I like Merrill, but she isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer and she's fanatically fixated on that thing. It would not have been difficult for the demon to manipulate her into doing what it wanted. It's similar to the Chantry's set up with the Templars, it's easy to control and manipulate people who desperately need what only you can provide.

Yup, I can easily see this happening.  Merrill seems so sure of herself, and so sure she's not doing anything wrong, no matter who seems to question her.  I can easily see her thinking that either "I can handle the demon if it gets out" or "the demon's not actually evil, so it would be okay if I was possessed to get this knowledge".

Sorry, I know people love her and all, and think she's great, but she just seemed really dumb to me.

Merrill does have doubts about the whole thing (leaving the Dalish to fix the mirror)...she expresses them to Hawke if you go the friendship path/friend romance, given the trust that has developed between the two.

Mr.House wrote...

Merrill is working on something that killed two(one) of there hunters and was corrupted by the darkspawn, I would have warned the clan too. Merrill was told by the demon the mirror would restore the past, Merrill believed it. If my first who I loved like a daughter told me that I would have acted the same way as the
Keeper.

'cept Marethari knew Merrill cleansed it with blood magic.

Modifié par jlb524, 13 juin 2011 - 03:57 .

[Mr.House]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Would you have still warned the clan after Merrill told you repeatedly the shard was safe and cleansed? Because that's what she did.

Yes I would have, because Merrill would be like a daughter to me, the Keeper is flawed, she put Merrill above her duties, but Merrill is also not blameless. She listend to a demon and decided the shard was worth the risk. The whole story is about two people who have alot of pride, put that with love and two stuborn people and you have confrontation, anger, sadness and a tragic ending.

I think both are at fault, both made mistakes and both can be blamed, in the end the people that suffer is the clan.

Modifié par Mr.House, 13 juin 2011 - 03:57 .

[Collider]

Merrill will turn out to be an evil character in DA3???

If they do, they'd be destroying her character.
The point of her character, as I saw it, was to show someone that despite using forbidden magic was at her core a good person. She was supposed to subvert the blood mage/magic = evil stereotype.

[Marcy3655]

jlb524 wrote...

No.

Regardless, I think Dragon Age does a good job of blurring the lines between good/evil when it comes to characters (I don't even want to call Flemeth 'evil' yet).

With Merrill, she used methods that some in the DAverse would consider 'evil' but her ultimate goal was unselfish/self-sacrificing which are typically considered 'good' things.

Marcy3655 wrote...

I am creating several new playthroughs without romancing her just in case she does turn out to be evil in the
next installment of DA...       ../../../images/forum/emoticons/unsure.png

M

Aw, who doesn't want to date an evil character though...they're so fun!

Agreed, however when we first meet her she is doing something secretive with magic and if asked what she was doing she is evasive and will not say...     That is what bothers me but it could be just my own paranoia....   lol

I adore her and will cry if she turns on me and I have to cut her down....    If that happens I fear I will put the game down and it'll be awhile before I can pick it up again...    

I cried when Bethany dies in the deep roads (I have a very difficult time making her a grey warden, after having done so once and recieved that horrible letter from her...) and would rather she be free even if dead and still cry everytime it happens...  I feel so sorry for Hawke, losing his/her brother, then sister, and finally mom who was deeply hurt by the events leading up to Hawke becoming champion of Kirkwall anyway...    in the end, Hawke is all alone...    

I'm don't know which is worse...   


M

[TEWR]

Mr.House wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Would you have still warned the clan after Merrill told you repeatedly the shard was safe and cleansed? Because that's what she did.

Yes I would have, because Merrill would be like a daughter to me, the Keeper is flawed, she put Merrill above her duties, but Merrill is also not blameless. She listend to a demon and decided the shard was worth the risk. The whole story is about two people who have alot of pride, put that with love and two stuborn people and you have confrontation, anger, sadness and a tragic ending.

I think both are at fault, both made mistakes and both can be blamed, in the end the people that suffer is the clan.

I'm unsure of whether I should say she's blameless or not. But...

First off, she's following the rules of a Keeper more than Marethari is. It's a Keeper's place to find out anything and everything about the ancient elves.

Second, she only went to the demon a total of 3 times.

• With Marethari in the short story
• to learn blood magic
• with Hawke.

The first time has no real consequence, but it's here that we find out the demon is trapped forever (later we find out can only be freed with a powerful spell)

The second time she finds a way to cleanse the shard after conventional magic failed. I imagine after it worked she immediately told the clan. Afterwards she had been using any lore and research she could scrounge up to help make a new Eluvian (as David Gaider said).

The third time results in Marethari's blunder because Marethari was a fool. And if you try to tell them what Marethari did, they lash out at Merrill because they had been fed lies about her and were fed up with waiting around. They used her as an outlet for their rage rather than realize Merrill did the clan's duty when a Keeper becomes an Abomination.

Marethari was a grown woman and an experienced mage and she made a decision that affected more than she originally thought it would.

[LobselVith8]

Mr.House wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Would you have still warned the clan after Merrill told you repeatedly the shard was safe and cleansed? Because that's what she did.

Yes I would have, because Merrill would be like a daughter to me, the Keeper is flawed, she put Merrill above her duties, but Merrill is also not blameless.

Marethari used the incident to try to coerce Merrill to come back to the clan, and Pol paid the price for Marethari's actions with his life.

Mr.House wrote...

She listend to a demon and decided the shard was worth the risk.

Merrill pursued the shard long before she met Audacity, and dealt with him to learn blood magic because she lacked the sufficient amount of lyrium.

Mr.House wrote...

The whole story is about two people who have alot of pride, put that with love and two stuborn people and you have confrontation, anger, sadness and a tragic ending.

Pride? Merrill originally wanted to find out what happened to Tamlen, and then decided the Eluvian could help the People. Gaider has already stated Merrill used lore and information she extrapolated from the shard to build the Eluvain she has, so she has more knowledge about it than everyone else we know in this storyline.

Mr.House wrote...

I think both are at fault, both made mistakes and both can be blamed, in the end the people that suffer is the clan.

What is Merrill at fault for? Following her convictions? You can blame The Warden for the same thing when he ventures to Haven during the Fifth Blight for what he believes to be the correct course of action, except Merrill is only risking her life when she heads to Sundermount. Marethari risks everyone's life by accepting a demon into her body and telling no one about it until long after Hawke and Merrill arrive.

[TEWR]

Marcy3655 wrote...

Agreed, however when we first meet her she is doing something secretive with magic and if asked what she was doing she is evasive and will not say...     That is what bothers me but it could be just my own paranoia....   lol

If a human came up to you and you'd never seen him before, would you tell him that you were practicing blood magic (or regular magic) and you're an apostate? She doesn't know Hawke at that point so her evasiveness is understandable. Plus, she eventually confides in you so no harm, no foul.

I adore her and will cry if she turns on me and I have to cut her down....    If that happens I fear I will put the game down and it'll be awhile before I can pick it up again...    

The sad thing is that people kill her in DA2 in The Last Straw. It makes me  and

I cried when Bethany dies in the deep roads (I have a very difficult time making her a grey warden, after having done so once and recieved that horrible letter from her...) and would rather she be free even if dead and still cry everytime it happens...  I feel so sorry for Hawke, losing his/her brother, then sister, and finally mom who was deeply hurt by the events leading up to Hawke becoming champion of Kirkwall anyway...    in the end, Hawke is all alone...    

I'm don't know which is worse...   


M

I enjoy making her a Warden. She has relatively more freedom and is protected from the Chantry, and she does come to terms with it eventually.

Plus I love her GW robes more than her Circle robes.

[TEWR]

@Lob: Or Mahariel if you imported that. She wants to find out about him in Mahariel imports