131 réponses à ce sujet

[Dannyboy9876]

Medhia Nox wrote...

If the Reapers were really unstoppable they wouldn't have to use a sneak attack to win every time.

Shoot someone in the head once - Probably dead
Shoot someone in the head and heart, definitley dead.

It's just a precaution.

[this isnt my name]

Medhia Nox wrote...

If the Reapers were really unstoppable they wouldn't have to use a sneak attack to win every time.

Why make things easier ? Thats illogical. They could do that. But its easier this way. Why kill a bear with a knife when you have a gun.

[outlaw1109]

Because the bear can rip your face off if you get close enough to use your knife. Using the gun would be safer (operative term here). Your metaphor proves the point you were trying to counteract. Your saying that the Reapers would rather sneak-attack because their afraid of what the galaxy would do to them if they tried to use their knives. If they're afraid, then there's a weakness (or twenty).

[DCarter]

I always thought the reapers were meant to destroy all space-faring life through orbital bombardment but its clear from the trailers that, they're actually landing on earth which may present other weaknesses.

[Whatever42]

There is more to the Reaper sneak-attacking than just because its safer. The Reapers have a cycle that they want to keep intact. Even with complete surprise and complete control of the relay network, it took them centuries to wrap up the Protheans.

What will now happen? It will now take them thousands of years to clean everything up. And they might lose relays. And millions may escape. And these millions will take their technology into the next cycle and know the Reapers are out there.

The Reapers NEEDED that surprise. And if they can't somehow manage to clean all this up, they're ultimately doomed.

[Lvl20DM]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Dannyboy9876 wrote...

Now? No.

It WILL be a Deus Ex Machina, but I don't care, to be honest.

No. The defeat of the Reapers will not be because of an abrupt, contrived and unexpected intervention of some race or technology. I guarantee to you that the mechanism used to defeat the Reapers has been foreshadowed in ME1 and ME2.

And even if the method of defeating the Reapers hasn't been hinted at yet, you can bet that ME3 will do the appropriate amount of exposition. Also, I can't help but feel that whatever it is, Shep will have to do most of the "heavy lifting".

[ThatGamerWithSouvlaki285]

With the current information and, method not being extremely cliche and making sense with the story.....No.

[jamesp81]

RAF1940 wrote...

do you think the forces of the galaxy could defeat the Reapers?

Excluding the "it's a game element" it's unlikely.

It would require the use of non-conventional tactics.  Use of the Citadel to control the mass relays, reliance on swarms of smaller, easily replaceable warships rather than large, ponderous, vulnerable dreadnoughts (lots of fighters and frigates, IMO is the way to go here.  A Reaper can pretty well smoke anything it can engage with its main weapons, so the idea here is to not give them large, expensive targets).

Modifié par jamesp81, 13 juin 2011 - 06:15 .

[Flashlegend]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Flashlegend wrote...

Not without a deus ex machina. The galaxy has basically been taken by surprise. No one except cerberus was remotely prepared for it.(and looked what happened to them) People should remember they've literally done this hundreds if not thousands of time. If this wasn't a video game and shepard wasn't the main character, I'd say they were ****ed.

The cycle is certainly broken now. The Reapers have never yet faced what they face now. 

There is evidence that the various races have been preparing despite their public denials. The Turians did develop the Thanix. The humans did expand their fleet and we have evidence that the fleet was gathered for the invasion.

But the reason that the cycle is broken is that there is no way now that the Reapers can mop up everyone. Before it was easy because they controlled the relay systems.  Everyone was ignorant about the Reapers and indoctrination and they controlled movement of fleets and information. 

Now we're aware of indoctrination. We're aware of the goals of the Reapers. If a few systems trashed their relays then it would take years for the Reapers to fly to each system. Species could flee (its a big galaxy!). They could set ambushes (Reaper fleet arrives and the relay blows up, taking many of them down with it). 

And how do they get back the Citadel?

With the cycle broken and abundant information on the Reapers, its only a matter of time before organic races catch up to Reaper technology and eventually even surpass it, since we have no evidence that Reapers can develop technology on their own.

Nah, the Reapers are doomed. Now whether or not they annialate most of the big races is the only thing in question.

Doomed? Hardly. While all that may be true the reapers are still insanely powerful. Did it not take a good portion of the alliance fleet to just defeat Sovereign? Just one reaper. And from what we've seen at E3, I'm fairly sure Earth's defenses(that fleet) have already been shattered. And while we maybe be aware of indoctrination(really only Shepard, Cerberus and some other alliance members) that doesn't mean that knowledge is going to change anything. We already know Cerberus(undoubtedly the organization best prepared to handle the reapers) has already fallen(indoctrinated) into their command. While some systems may be able to trash their relays, in the long run that does virtually nothing to stop the reapers. From the coverage at E3, we also know that Earth and humanity aren't the only ones under major attack from the reapers. Apparently the turians(a race possessing one of the strongest miltaries in the galaxy) have already been forced to flee from their homeworld. So no, I don't see how the reapers are "doomed" whatsoever. Blowing up relays is wonderful and all but that's not gonna help all the others species getting demolished by the reapers. Is it?

Modifié par Flashlegend, 13 juin 2011 - 06:13 .

[jamesp81]

illuminatus561 wrote...

I think it is possible but will be really difficult and certainly won't be without some serious sacrifices. The reapers are strong but some of the largest armies and empires in the world have been brought down by determined resistance. In the ancient world, even Hannibal's elephants, a monster to roman troops could be felled by a single, well placed spear. The key will be divide and conquer. I think the Reapers' arrogance is their greatest weakness

I'd prefer it if they were merely stupid

[Whatever42]

Flashlegend wrote...

Doomed? Hardly. While all that may be true the reapers are still insanely powerful. Did it not take a good portion of the alliance fleet to just defeat Sovereign? Just one reaper. And from what we've seen at E3, I'm fairly sure Earth's defenses(that fleet) have already been shattered. And while we maybe be aware of indoctrination(really only Shepard, Cerberus and some other alliance members) that doesn't mean that knowledge is going to change anything.

We already know Cerberus(undoubtedly the organization best prepared to handle the reapers) has already fallen(indoctrinated) into their command. While some systems may be able to trash their relays, in the long run that does virtually nothing to stop the reapers. From the coverage at E3, we also know that Earth and humanity aren't the only ones under major attack from the reapers. Apparently the turians(who arguably have one of the strongest miltaries in the galaxy) have already been forced to flee from their homeworld. So no, I don't see how the reapers are "doomed" whatsoever. Blowing up relays is wonderful and all but that's not gonna help all the others species getting demolished by the reapers. Is it?

I didn't say we would win this war. Without some sort of technology break-through, we can't. 

I said that with the cycle broken, the Reapers are ultimately doomed. For example, let's assume that those sneaky Salarians take some colonies off the relay network. It would take years for the Reapers to get to those colonies - maybe decades. 

The Salarians are aware of indoctrination and find a way to identify indoctrinated individuals. With their security intact, they then decide to send off a few million of their best and brightest to some super-secret location in a very hard-to-find location. This should be easy - the galaxy is a huge place. Without some intelligence on the location of this base (or bases), finding them would be an utterly impossible task, even for tens-of-thousands of ships.

The Reapers could then never restart the cycle - because the Salarians with thousands of years of additional research under their belts, would likely be very technologically advanced by the time they left and then could rebuild and trash the Reapers when they returned.

And that's just one scenario. If it does take the Reapers centuries to clean up a civilization when completely controlling the relay network and with total surprise then this war will take thousands of years. Who knows what technological and innovate terrors organics can create in that time.

The Reapers are eternal but we've also seen them as largely unchanging. The reason they cut off the head of organic civilization before it gets too advanced is because if it got too advanced, the Reapers might be overtaken. With the cycle broken, they are almost guananteed to be eventually destroyed.

[Aurellia]

There is a potential plot device they could use to defeat the reapers that wouldn't be a kludge or Deus Ex Machina. In fact this grows naturally out of the lore from the first game.

Suppose the purpose of indoctrination and making races like the keepers is for more than just maintaining the citadel or to have vast armies of zombies to send at you. Suppose that the reapers use indoctrination to make servants to maintain their very own bodies (ships).   We saw Saren and Benezia inside of Sovereign in ME1 so it is obvious there are places for us "wee folk" on board a reaper.

So find a way to cure or disrupt indoctrination and we have the basis of a way to beat reapers. Now it still won't be easy as we will have to get inside a reaper to deliver the cure.

There already exists one possible means to "cure" indoctrination and that is the Thorian technology that Cerberus was experimenting with in ME1 to create Thorian "husks." Simply use that tech on Reaper husks and make them your own slaves.

This leads to a nice paragon renegade choice. Make them your slaves or put them out of their misery. The later makes it easier to beat a reaper but it is horrifying.

Modifié par Aurellia, 13 juin 2011 - 06:32 .

[Whatever42]

Aurellia wrote...

There is a potential plot device they could use to defeat the reapers that wouldn't be a kludge or Deus Ex Machina. In fact this grows naturally out of the lore from the first game.

Suppose the purpose of indoctrination and making races like the keepers is for more than just maintaining the citadel or to have vast armies of zombies to send at you. Suppose that the reapers use indoctrination to make servants to maintain their very own bodies (ships).   We saw Saren and Benezia inside of Sovereign in ME1 so it is obvious there are places for us "wee folk" on board a reaper.

So find a way to cure or disrupt indoctrination and we have the basis of a way to beat reapers. Now it still won't be easy as we will have to get inside a reaper to deliver the cure.

There already exists one possible means to "cure" indoctrination and that is the Thorian technology that Cerberus was experimenting with in ME1 to create Thorian "husks." Simply use that tech on Reaper husks and make them your own slaves.

This leads to a nice paragon renegade choice. Make them your slaves or put them out of their misery. The later makes it easier to beat a reaper but it is horrifying.

Sovereign told us that every Reaper was a nation. We saw in ME2 that the "nation" was composed of an ascended species. Benezia told us that indoctrination made you lose your sense of self, that you slipped into a kind of groupthink.

I think we know exactly how we're going to defeat the Reapers and its been very well foreshadowed.

[Aurellia]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...


Sovereign told us that every Reaper was a nation. We saw in ME2 that the "nation" was composed of an ascended species. Benezia told us that indoctrination made you lose your sense of self, that you slipped into a kind of groupthink.

I think we know exactly how we're going to defeat the Reapers and its been very well foreshadowed.

I had forgotten about that part.  That even further supports my hypothesis.  If you find a way to disrupt the indoctrination process (paragon) or make them your own slaves (renegade) then the Reaper is screwed, assuming you can deliver this solution to the "nation" which obviously shouldn't be easy.

If they do this it would be more of a Chekov's Gun which is one of the better ways to resolve a seemingly impossible plot situation.  That is to reveal some previously developed element in a new light that provides the solution.

[Dave666]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Flashlegend wrote...

Doomed? Hardly. While all that may be true the reapers are still insanely powerful. Did it not take a good portion of the alliance fleet to just defeat Sovereign? Just one reaper. And from what we've seen at E3, I'm fairly sure Earth's defenses(that fleet) have already been shattered. And while we maybe be aware of indoctrination(really only Shepard, Cerberus and some other alliance members) that doesn't mean that knowledge is going to change anything.

We already know Cerberus(undoubtedly the organization best prepared to handle the reapers) has already fallen(indoctrinated) into their command. While some systems may be able to trash their relays, in the long run that does virtually nothing to stop the reapers. From the coverage at E3, we also know that Earth and humanity aren't the only ones under major attack from the reapers. Apparently the turians(who arguably have one of the strongest miltaries in the galaxy) have already been forced to flee from their homeworld. So no, I don't see how the reapers are "doomed" whatsoever. Blowing up relays is wonderful and all but that's not gonna help all the others species getting demolished by the reapers. Is it?

I didn't say we would win this war. Without some sort of technology break-through, we can't. 

I said that with the cycle broken, the Reapers are ultimately doomed. For example, let's assume that those sneaky Salarians take some colonies off the relay network. It would take years for the Reapers to get to those colonies - maybe decades. 

The Salarians are aware of indoctrination and find a way to identify indoctrinated individuals. With their security intact, they then decide to send off a few million of their best and brightest to some super-secret location in a very hard-to-find location. This should be easy - the galaxy is a huge place. Without some intelligence on the location of this base (or bases), finding them would be an utterly impossible task, even for tens-of-thousands of ships.

The Reapers could then never restart the cycle - because the Salarians with thousands of years of additional research under their belts, would likely be very technologically advanced by the time they left and then could rebuild and trash the Reapers when they returned.

Sure, it might take decades, but did you play ME:1?  Did you talk to Vigil and listen to him tell Shepard about how the last Reaper Cycle took centuries?  How the Reapers were methodical and meticulous?  How they wiped out all life on every planet?  

And that's just one scenario. If it does take the Reapers centuries to clean up a civilization when completely controlling the relay network and with total surprise then this war will take thousands of years. Who knows what technological and innovate terrors organics can create in that time.

As for the Salarians somehow taking colonies off the Relay Network...Are they absolutely sure that they left no trace?  That there wasn't a single piece of information left behind, or a single individual who could be indoctrinated?

The Reapers are eternal but we've also seen them as largely unchanging. The reason they cut off the head of organic civilization before it gets too advanced is because if it got too advanced, the Reapers might be overtaken. With the cycle broken, they are almost guananteed to be eventually destroyed.

You assume that the Reapers are unchanging.  Have you watched them for 37,000,000 years?  For all you know, they use the same strategy each time, because it works!  Races might overtake them in technology?  Sure...if the Reapers leave the galaxy alone for 37,000,000 years. Thats quite a head start...

The Cycle is only broken when the last Reaper dies.  So the Keepers didn't respond...Big deal.  The Reapers built the Citadel and you don't think that they could repair it so that the next time they send a signal the Keepers respond?  Or worst case scenario, they wipe out the Keepers and create the Keepers 2.0, they did it once and they could easilly do it again.  Just look at the Collectors.  Then they head back into Dark Space and return in 50,000 years and the next races are none the wiser and fall for the same trap as always.

[Whatever42]

Aurellia wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...


Sovereign told us that every Reaper was a nation. We saw in ME2 that the "nation" was composed of an ascended species. Benezia told us that indoctrination made you lose your sense of self, that you slipped into a kind of groupthink.

I think we know exactly how we're going to defeat the Reapers and its been very well foreshadowed.

I had forgotten about that part.  That even further supports my hypothesis.  If you find a way to disrupt the indoctrination process (paragon) or make them your own slaves (renegade) then the Reaper is screwed, assuming you can deliver this solution to the "nation" which obviously shouldn't be easy.

If they do this it would be more of a Chekov's Gun which is one of the better ways to resolve a seemingly impossible plot situation.  That is to reveal some previously developed element in a new light that provides the solution.

One more tidbit - in ME2, the dead reaper still had an indoctrination field, which seems to imply that its central to the machine design. That makes me even more certain that its not just some weapon that the Reapers use but that it's central to its function. 

But your hypothesis makes me think. I just assumed that by us countering the field, that the Reaper would fall to pieces. That even if the nation really existed as entities able to make decisions, that the chaos would paralyze it, allowing us to blow it apart.

But now I'm thinking to Legion's explanations about the way Geth work - that the programs are democratic. Maybe Geth and Reapers are similar and a paragon Shepard can use the Geth to provide an alternative way of existance to the Reapers - democracy, instead of group consciousness. 

Probably not - I can't see ME getting that complicated and strange but its an interesting thought.

[Whatever42]

Dave666 wrote...

Sure, it might take decades, but did you play ME:1?  Did you talk to Vigil and listen to him tell Shepard about how the last Reaper Cycle took centuries?  How the Reapers were methodical and meticulous?  How they wiped out all life on every planet?  

Sure, but there are hundreds of billions of stars and trillions of planets in our galaxy. Being methodical is easy when you control the relays and your quarry is ignorant and trapped. It's much harder when they know exactly what you're about, have time to counter your indoctrination, and can organize a flight to some dark corner of the galaxy where you'll never find them.

You assume that the Reapers are unchanging.  Have you watched them for 37,000,000 years?  For all you know, they use the same strategy each time, because it works!  Races might overtake them in technology?  Sure...if the Reapers leave the galaxy alone for 37,000,000 years. Thats quite a head start...

The Cycle is only broken when the last Reaper dies.  So the Keepers didn't respond...Big deal.  The Reapers built the Citadel and you don't think that they could repair it so that the next time they send a signal the Keepers respond?  Or worst case scenario, they wipe out the Keepers and create the Keepers 2.0, they did it once and they could easilly do it again.  Just look at the Collectors.  Then they head back into Dark Space and return in 50,000 years and the next races are none the wiser and fall for the same trap as always.

Yes, that was an assumption. The Reapers let organic civilization evolve to a certain point beneath them and then harvest them. In the meantime, they sit in darkspace hibernating. I am assuming they haven't technologically advanced leaps and bounds.

And this has nothing to do with the Keepers. And the cycle can easily be broken with Reapers still alive.The cycle is allowing organic life to evolve to a certain point and then exterminating all of it and starting over again. If the Reapers can't exterminate life then their cycle is broken.

The Protheans had developed the technology to create relays. This likely means that the technology is probably not that far ahead of us. We have bits of Reaper technology to study as well. If a group of Salarians (for example) could hide off somewhere for a few hundred or few thousand years, I think we can assume that they will make some huge advancements in that time. 

In the meantime, the Reapers are either still trying to track them down or have returned to their hibernation. Would they leave at this point? IF they do then they're dead for sure because the Salarians could just wait for organic life to evolve again and then sweep in and arm and prepare it with Reaper-destroying technology.

If they didn't leave then the Salarians could still destroy them. There don't appear to be millions of Reapers. If the Salarians (or humans or Turians) could develop weapons that could destroy Reapers in that time then we would have a long, drawn out war in which the Reapers couldn't win (since they cannot replenish their numbers).

[Dave666]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

Sure, it might take decades, but did you play ME:1?  Did you talk to Vigil and listen to him tell Shepard about how the last Reaper Cycle took centuries?  How the Reapers were methodical and meticulous?  How they wiped out all life on every planet?  

Sure, but there are hundreds of billions of stars and trillions of planets in our galaxy. Being methodical is easy when you control the relays and your quarry is ignorant and trapped. It's much harder when they know exactly what you're about, have time to counter your indoctrination, and can organize a flight to some dark corner of the galaxy where you'll never find them.

Sure, there are hundreds of billions of stars and trillions of planets, but you can rule out all but a miniscule percentage of them (I'm talking .000000000000000000000000001% probably a lot more zero's).  I say that we can rule them out because how are the Salarians going to get to them?  If they don't use Cryogenic Suspension then there are food considerations and if they do there's the uncertainty of how long a Cryo Pod could keep someone alive, which means that they can't gat that far really.  So the Reapers spread their nets wider than normal until they've got them and while they're at it they wipe out any species that they find that haven't reached Space Flight yet.  Not a problem for the Reapers really.  

So the next Cycle takes 200,000 years instead of the usual 50,000 years.  What does a few hundred thousand years matter to a race that is 37,000,000 years old?

You assume that the Reapers are unchanging.  Have you watched them for 37,000,000 years?  For all you know, they use the same strategy each time, because it works!  Races might overtake them in technology?  Sure...if the Reapers leave the galaxy alone for 37,000,000 years. Thats quite a head start...

The Cycle is only broken when the last Reaper dies.  So the Keepers didn't respond...Big deal.  The Reapers built the Citadel and you don't think that they could repair it so that the next time they send a signal the Keepers respond?  Or worst case scenario, they wipe out the Keepers and create the Keepers 2.0, they did it once and they could easilly do it again.  Just look at the Collectors.  Then they head back into Dark Space and return in 50,000 years and the next races are none the wiser and fall for the same trap as always.

Yes, that was an assumption. The Reapers let organic civilization evolve to a certain point beneath them and then harvest them. In the meantime, they sit in darkspace hibernating. I am assuming they haven't technologically advanced leaps and bounds.

And this has nothing to do with the Keepers. And the cycle can easily be broken with Reapers still alive.The cycle is allowing organic life to evolve to a certain point and then exterminating all of it and starting over again. If the Reapers can't exterminate life then their cycle is broken.

The Protheans had developed the technology to create relays. This likely means that the technology is probably not that far ahead of us. We have bits of Reaper technology to study as well. If a group of Salarians (for example) could hide off somewhere for a few hundred or few thousand years, I think we can assume that they will make some huge advancements in that time. 

In the meantime, the Reapers are either still trying to track them down or have returned to their hibernation. Would they leave at this point? IF they do then they're dead for sure because the Salarians could just wait for organic life to evolve again and then sweep in and arm and prepare it with Reaper-destroying technology.

If they didn't leave then the Salarians could still destroy them. There don't appear to be millions of Reapers. If the Salarians (or humans or Turians) could develop weapons that could destroy Reapers in that time then we would have a long, drawn out war in which the Reapers couldn't win (since they cannot replenish their numbers).

You're placing a hell of a lot of faith in the Reapers not finding these Salarians, or the Reapers just 'giving up', when what we learned from Vigil indicates that they are very methodical and meticulous.  They would be unlikely to give up if it meant that the next Cycle would have a warning.  I doubt they want to go through all this again anytime soon.

As for the Hibernation thing...Thats pure speculation from Vigil, he said that the Prothean Scientists hypothesised that the Reapers underwent 'long periods of inactivity', the fact of the matter is that its pure supposition.  We don't know what the Reapers do in Dark Space for 50,000 years, for all we know they could be out there constantly working on new Technology or looking at old technology and seeing how it might be improved.  We just don't know.

Modifié par Dave666, 13 juin 2011 - 07:25 .

[HTTP 404]

FluffyScarf wrote...

Blowing up the Sun? Too similar to Revenge of the Fallen.

I never saw that.

[HTTP 404]

Dave666 wrote...

As I've said before though, the Reapers are attacking everyone, which includes Human Colonies (which only have about 6,000,000 people on em) so they'd be lost easilly.  Wipe out Earth too and bye bye Humans, it was nice knowing you.

One thing that did occur to me was that the Citadel is a giant Mass Relay and as such must have an Element Zero Core the size of which we can't imagine (to reach Dark Space), so what would happen if we jury-rigged that Eezo Core so that it created in essence a Black Hole (Increase the Mass of the Citadel a million fold)...

Yah, a big battle finale would be fitting if it was at the Citadel.  You bring up an interesting point of there being a massive amounts of power to keep the Citadel running and to act like a massive relay.  If one ordinary relay can destroy a system what can a relay the size of the Citadel do?

Maybe there is an option to activate the Citadel relay and send them back into dark space and make it a problem for the future? this could save the Citadel.

[Ultai]

No, considering Sovereign wrecks multiple ships by itself, and the alliance fleet guarding Earth gets curbstomped before the Reapers touch down. I'll expect a deus ex machina.

[Spectre_907]

No because the only way to gain some advantage or close the technology gap would be by preserving the Collector's base but Cerberus has turned on you.

[Thompson family]

HogarthHughes 3 wrote...

Not without some kind of yet unknown weakness to exploit, assuming they're all close to as strong as Sovereign.

Yep.

[formshifter]

 Well, there WAS a gun that could one-shot a reaper from a few million years ago. Maybe something on a similar scale or a restored version of it? 

There's also the possibility of infiltrating a Reaper and destroying it from the inside. Then again, the game has us shooting a reaper with a standard heavy caliber machine gun. . . . so yeah. 


My thoughts? 
Realistically, no. A single Reaper took out an entire Alliance fleet without taking any damage (coughDeusExMachinacough). Sovereign only got killed when Shepard kicked its junk metaphorically, and the Normandy pulled out its Turkey Slapper Cannon. 

Considering we see most (if not all) the Reaper Armada invade Earth in a single titanic **** you to humanity. . . . 
I doubt that even getting together every fleet of every sentient species in the galaxy we'd be able to go toe to toe with the Reapers and win. 

[Grunt Lord]

here is how i see it

Civilizations that follow shepard have a 30% survival rate
Reapers have a 70% overall vitory

facts
1.)turian Thanix Cannons created by studys of sovirens remains and had about three years to buid (upgrade for SR-2 in ME2)

2.)Reapers are laid back since no loss known

3.)Reapers where slowed

4.)each race has a weakness and a strong point that cover eachother such as Geth sheilds, Guarian Repairing, human Carrier fleets, Turian Dreadnoughts, Asari destiny assenchen/biotics, Rachni Ground forces, Krogen Combat, Salarian planers/strategists/etc, hannar (secret prothean weapons stash), etc.

5.)Relay controles dissrupted by prothean surviving scientists ilos

6.)if find weapen that caused great damege to that one planet in ME1

7.)we got shepard they dont

Modifié par Grunt Lord, 13 juin 2011 - 08:27 .