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[archurban]

if you follow ME 3, you already know it TIM is a leader of human attack, Cerberus is turned to reapers. so they are all enemies. you must kill them all no matter who. if you paid attention, TIM was already partially indoctrinated. plus, you can read mass effect revolution which illusive man story. so if you didn't finish ME 2 yet, you must blow up collector's base. no mercy. kill all sons and ****es.

[Inverness Moon]

archurban wrote...

if you follow ME 3, you already know it TIM is a leader of human attack, Cerberus is turned to reapers. so they are all enemies. you must kill them all no matter who. if you paid attention, TIM was already partially indoctrinated. plus, you can read mass effect revolution which illusive man story. so if you didn't finish ME 2 yet, you must blow up collector's base. no mercy. kill all sons and ****es.

Its like you either didn't read the thread or didn't comprehend what you read.

There is also no evidence of TIM being indoctrinated. Having reaper technology does not automatically mean indoctrination as some would like to think. And if you really want to explore that point you should consider where TIM got his eyes from and how Shepard's are now the same in all but color.

Also, it's ignorant and foolish to decide the choice about what to do with the base is the best one when you haven't even played the game yet.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 14 juin 2011 - 12:35 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Inverness Moon - my Shepard's eyes aren't like TIMs... is that in ME 3 or a Renegade thing for ME 2?

[MigoTheGIgo]

Im very much looking forward to figuring this out.

How great would it be if, say, saving the base (and thus keeping the Illusive Mans Confidence) was the only way you could actually bring even a part of Cerberus back on your side? Wouldn't have seen that coming, but it would make some sort of sense.

And even if Cerberus should meet a bloody end at my sheps rifle, i still stand by my decision to support them in ME2. Hell, getting indoctrinated would even be a saving grace in this case. It would be more devastating to their cause (in my eyes) if they had been working for the reapers all along (I sincerely doubt that), or if there was an actual, rational reason for them turning on you.

Humanity First ^^

[MigoTheGIgo]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Inverness Moon - my Shepard's eyes aren't like TIMs... is that in ME 3 or a Renegade thing for ME 2?

Renegade I believe, when you get the meter maxed they look like a red version of TIMs. Which doesnt seem to make sense given ME: Evolution's storyline, but perhaps there are things we do not yet know...

Or it could be a coincidence. Or just a thematic or artistic decision. All in all, it doesnt really mean a thing unless Bioware decides it does.

It sure does look bad ass though...

Oh, and on topic:

"You could have trained an entire army for what you spent bringing me back".

I guess that it isnt too much of a stretch that Cerberus would do just that then, is it? Mercenaries are aplenty in ME2 (Well... perhaps not by the end of it  ) 

Modifié par MigoTheGIgo, 14 juin 2011 - 12:44 .

[Inverness Moon]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Inverness Moon - my Shepard's eyes aren't like TIMs... is that in ME 3 or a Renegade thing for ME 2?

Shepard's eyes are cybernetic and look like TIM's, however unlike TIM's they've been disguised to look normal.

TIM probably keeps his either because they're part of the persona he projects or because he wants that reminder of the past.

MigoTheGIgo wrote...

Renegade I believe, when you get the meter maxed they look like a red version of TIMs. Which doesnt seem to make sense given ME: Evolution's storyline, but perhaps there are things we do not yet know...

Or it could be a coincidence. Or just a thematic or artistic decision. All in all, it doesnt really mean a thing unless Bioware decides it does.

It doesn't seem unusual to me that TIM might contribute his own technology to helping bringing Shepard back from the dead.

[Eshaye]

"His own technology" Lol. It's all Reaper tech.... Which is a double edged sword and always comes at a cost which is usually your meat suit.

[MigoTheGIgo]

@Inverness Moon and Eshaye:

I agree, with all your points. That being said:

1) If reaper tech was used in Shepards ressurection, you would think it had come up. Certainly Miranda would have known.
2) If reaper tech was used, it really should have been hinted at I think, at least if it is going to play some role. Otherwise it feels too much like a retcon. But you never know.

Not to mention, that the ((SPOILERS FOR ME:Evolution, sorry!!!)) tech that did this to TIM seemed both rather unique, as did the effects it had on TIM. It would be hard to come by (Though, it wouldnt be too much of a stretch to think it was scavenged from Sovereigns Wreckage), and it would be a massive risk to attempt to recreate what it did to TIM.

[Father_Jerusalem]

They're against Shepard and the Alliance because the Alliance stole the Normandy SR2 from them.

I mean, they spent a LOT of money on that ship, and ParaShep's just like "OH hai Alliance guyz, here have this ship and plz don't worry about those 300,000 Batarians I killed. Cool trade? Cool trade."

ReneShep got dosed with some GHB and woke up in Tijuana with a donkey and a note from the Alliance saying "lolz, thanks for the ship, sucker. PS. Your trial started an hour ago."

[Inverness Moon]

Eshaye wrote...

"His own technology" Lol. It's all Reaper tech.... Which is a double edged sword and always comes at a cost which is usually your meat suit.

The whole "it always comes at a cost" thing is a cliche I disagree with.

MigoTheGIgo wrote...

@Inverness Moon and Eshaye:

I agree, with all your points. That being said:

1) If reaper tech was used in Shepards ressurection, you would think it had come up. Certainly Miranda would have known.

We know full well there are a lot of things Miranda doesn't know.

2) If reaper tech was used, it really should have been hinted at I think, at least if it is going to play some role. Otherwise it feels too much like a retcon. But you never know.

I don't see a particular need to have revealed that in ME2. There could start being hints in ME3.

Not to mention, that the ((SPOILERS FOR ME:Evolution, sorry!!!)) tech that did this to TIM seemed both rather unique, as did the effects it had on TIM. It would be hard to come by (Though, it wouldnt be too much of a stretch to think it was scavenged from Sovereigns Wreckage), and it would be a massive risk to attempt to recreate what it did to TIM.

Reaper technology is not magic, something explicitly touched upon by TIM at the end of Evolution. You're assuming it isn't possible for him to have learned how that technology works and how to make use of that knowledge in instances like Shepard's resurrection.

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

They're against Shepard and the Alliance because the Alliance stole the Normandy SR2 from them.

I mean, they spent a LOT of money on that ship, and ParaShep's just like "OH hai Alliance guyz, here have this ship and plz don't worry about those 300,000 Batarians I killed. Cool trade? Cool trade."

ReneShep got dosed with some GHB and woke up in Tijuana with a donkey and a note from the Alliance saying "lolz, thanks for the ship, sucker. PS. Your trial started an hour ago."

You must be joking.

TIM is one of the few people that understands the threat the reapers pose (and even believes that they exist). The Evolution comic series put a whole new perspective on that. Now you really think he is going to hamper that fight (the one he has been preparing for since he founded Cerberus) because Shepard took a ship that he was supposed to be using anyways?

Get real.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 14 juin 2011 - 01:15 .

[Eshaye]

MigoTheGIgo wrote...

@Inverness Moon and Eshaye:

I agree, with all your points. That being said:

1) If reaper tech was used in Shepards ressurection, you would think it had come up. Certainly Miranda would have known.
2) If reaper tech was used, it really should have been hinted at I think, at least if it is going to play some role. Otherwise it feels too much like a retcon. But you never know.

Not to mention, that the ((SPOILERS FOR ME:Evolution, sorry!!!)) tech that did this to TIM seemed both rather unique, as did the effects it had on TIM. It would be hard to come by (Though, it wouldnt be too much of a stretch to think it was scavenged from Sovereigns Wreckage), and it would be a massive risk to attempt to recreate what it did to TIM.

The more I think about it the more I think reaper tech was used for Shepard, it would not be shocking by any means. Just finished replaying ME2 (well still got Arrival to go..) and I noticed a few clues that might lead to what's going on in ME3. I think the new novel with Gillian is going to help filling in the blanks too. 

The Reapers, or at least Harbinger wanted Shepard's body pretty badly, TIM kept pushing us into the collector's hands, it's possible the Reapers thought very well of some of their tech getting implanted in Shepy making the transition to Reaperness easier. Though so far it doesn't seem to be working. 

Someone suggested in another thread that maybe Shepard is immune to indoctrination for some reason. I personally like this solution as it would make Shepard the only person able to resist the Reapers effectively. Remember just being around a Reaper affects how people think, now there's a whole crapload of them... 

Miranda may or may not have known about the exact nature of the implants, she may have just been told by TIM that they were very advanced nano tech that might have been developed at another lab. 

*COMIC SPOILERS*

From Evolution we know there are Reaper artifacts that will mass produce shock troopers, TIM knows where one is at least, and Shepard destroyed one or brought the damn sphere of one back to his/her cabin.. Yet Shepard doesn't seem affected at all. 

About TIM being unique, I don't buy it simply because of his visions and his sensing of Reaper tech. Now that the Reapers are actually here, who knows how that will affect him? Shepard on the other hand as far as we know has never had a Reaper dream. 

Inverness Moon wrote...

The whole "it always comes at a cost" thing is a cliche I disagree with.

Sorry but not liking something because you think it's cliche doesn't invalidate the possibility. 

Modifié par Eshaye, 14 juin 2011 - 01:23 .

[Medhia Nox]

Maybe TIM has been ousted from Cerberus? I really don't think I've seen anyone mention that.

Of course "The Illusive Man" is just a title... it could be taken by anyone and the majority of Cerberus don't meet TIM (I think Miranda says this at the beginning of ME 2).

SO - the indoctrinated oust TIM and put a new one in his place.

Meaning he could be on Earth or even on the Normandy if that were true.

[Eshaye]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Maybe TIM has been ousted from Cerberus? I really don't think I've seen anyone mention that.

Of course "The Illusive Man" is just a title... it could be taken by anyone and the majority of Cerberus don't meet TIM (I think Miranda says this at the beginning of ME 2).

SO - the indoctrinated oust TIM and put a new one in his place.

Meaning he could be on Earth or even on the Normandy if that were true.

Except it isn't. Cerberus IS the Illusive Man, The Illusive Man IS Cerberus. You do not have one whithout the other. You have to read the novels and Evolution comic to really grasp that though unfortunately, they don't really emphazise it in the game itself. 

[Medhia Nox]

That seems silly to me. It's an organization... yes, he's the brains behind it - but you're telling me he's not like the Shadow Broker? He's not just a vastly well connected and intelligent individual?

I read the first two novels... neither of them seem to indicate anything more than the fact the he invented Cerberus and is the "heart" of the organization.

So - when the Illusive Man dies... so does Cerberus? Nah - the cells operate individually. Any intelligent, connected person could run Cerberus... or it's a pitifully fragile organization.

[MigoTheGIgo]

I guess reaper tech would touch upon shep being unaffected by indoctrination.

I mean, it has got to add up somehow, all that time spent around them.

@Inverness Moon
If reaper tech was used (especially without Miranda's knowledge), it would seem directly counter to the whole "we need shepard as he were when he defeated Saren". thingy TIM had going in ME2. Which I am not sure that i would be all too happy about.

[Medhia Nox]

I don't think there's Reaper tech in Shepard - and if they never mention it, I definitely won't think that as part of my Shepard.

I like to imagine that the nano-whatever they use at the beginning of ME 2 dissolve after doing their jobs to revive me.

[TheCrakFox]

MigoTheGIgo wrote...

I guess reaper tech would touch upon shep being unaffected by indoctrination.

I mean, it has got to add up somehow, all that time spent around them.

@Inverness Moon
If reaper tech was used (especially without Miranda's knowledge), it would seem directly counter to the whole "we need shepard as he were when he defeated Saren". thingy TIM had going in ME2. Which I am not sure that i would be all too happy about.

I think it says in the codex that it takes months to indoctrinate someone.
They can do it quicker but it turns the victim into a drooling vegetable as a side effect.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Shadow Broker's Base --

Dossier: Miranda -- paraphrase -- "...would be ideal for recruitment after the assassination of The Illusive Man and the destruction of Cerberus."

Even if you as Shepard gave the Collector Base to TIM, you have gotten powerful by being successful at what you did. You gained a following. You are a household name. You have grown in popularity beyond what TIM desired, and because of that you are a threat to his and his organization's power.

But Miranda's dossier hold a clue. Did Liara put out a contract on TIM? You helped Liara. TIM has an information network, too. You are a friend or more with Liara, the new Shadow Broker, and that has him very nervous. TIM may also know about the contract.

TIM and Cerberus are about power and keeping it. Their modus operandi is "the end justifies the means." TIM will be aligned with the Reapers for one purpose -- to have them kill Shepard, and that way he gets to blame the Reapers for it and take no responsibility.

[Inverness Moon]

Eshaye wrote...

The Reapers, or at least Harbinger wanted Shepard's body pretty badly, TIM kept pushing us into the collector's hands, it's possible the Reapers thought very well of some of their tech getting implanted in Shepy making the transition to Reaperness easier. Though so far it doesn't seem to be working.

TIM wasn't pushing Shepard into collector hands with the intention of betraying him, obviously. If you've read the redemption comics you know TIM moved against the Shadow Broker to prevent the collectors from getting their hands on Shepard's body.

Someone suggested in another thread that maybe Shepard is immune to indoctrination for some reason. I personally like this solution as it would make Shepard the only person able to resist the Reapers effectively. Remember just being around a Reaper affects how people think, now there's a whole crapload of them... 

Personally I think TIM's exposure to the monolith made him immune to indoctrionation, and he imbued Shepard with that during the Lazarus Project somehow.

About TIM being unique, I don't buy it simply because of his visions and his sensing of Reaper tech. Now that the Reapers are actually here, who knows how that will affect him? Shepard on the other hand as far as we know has never had a Reaper dream.

The Evolution comics established that TIM was obviously unique. How that will affect the story in  ME3 is another thing entirely.

Shepard hasn't had a reaper dream because he wasn't exposed like TIM was obviously. But then Shepard experienced the prothean beacon. And there is the part where he got hacked by the Overlord VI. Though I doubt that has any significance in canon.

Inverness Moon wrote...

Sorry but not liking something because you think it's cliche doesn't invalidate the possibility. 

I never said it wasn't possible.

MigoTheGIgo wrote...

I guess reaper tech would touch upon shep being unaffected by indoctrination.

I mean, it has got to add up somehow, all that time spent around them.

@Inverness Moon
If reaper tech was used (especially without Miranda's knowledge), it would seem directly counter to the whole "we need shepard as he were when he defeated Saren". thingy TIM had going in ME2. Which I am not sure that i would be all too happy about.

Shepard certainly isn't exactly as he was in ME1. His cybernetics has obviously resulted in things like increased strength and other augmentations. Going a step further and adding in technology that will help him against the reapers isn't surprising nor would it have negative effects on his mental health and performance like a control chip would.

[Spectre_907]

Yes and they will be an enemy. We don't know why.

[Medhia Nox]

@InvernessMoon - Paragon Shepard shows absolutely zero signs of having cybernetics. I'll have to load up my game and read some of the journal entries to see if it says anything about it.

Paragon's Shepard's eyes are exactly like they are in the first game... only Renegade Shepard shows signs of being part machine.

[Father_Jerusalem]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

They're against Shepard and the Alliance because the Alliance stole the Normandy SR2 from them.

I mean, they spent a LOT of money on that ship, and ParaShep's just like "OH hai Alliance guyz, here have this ship and plz don't worry about those 300,000 Batarians I killed. Cool trade? Cool trade."

ReneShep got dosed with some GHB and woke up in Tijuana with a donkey and a note from the Alliance saying "lolz, thanks for the ship, sucker. PS. Your trial started an hour ago."

You must be joking.

TIM is one of the few people that understands the threat the reapers pose (and even believes that they exist). The Evolution comic series put a whole new perspective on that. Now you really think he is going to hamper that fight (the one he has been preparing for since he founded Cerberus) because Shepard took a ship that he was supposed to be using anyways?

Get real.

Hey, I'm with TIM and Cerberus - if they give me an option to join up with them instead of the Alliance in ME3, I'm taking it. I'm just trying to come up with a reason why Cerberus would be after Shepard without resorting to the stupid "Indoctrination" chestnut.

[Inverness Moon]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I don't think there's Reaper tech in Shepard - and if they never mention it, I definitely won't think that as part of my Shepard.

I like to imagine that the nano-whatever they use at the beginning of ME 2 dissolve after doing their jobs to revive me.

A spectre should be above self-delusion. 

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Even if you as Shepard gave the Collector Base to TIM, you have gotten powerful by being successful at what you did. You gained a following. You are a household name. You have grown in popularity beyond what TIM desired, and because of that you are a threat to his and his organization's power.

That is nonsense.

First of all, Shepard's popularity and significance to humanity and the fight against the reapers is part of the reason that TIM spent 4 billion credits on reviving him. Shepard is going to do exactly what TIM wants him to do.

Secondly, unless Shepard is a complete idiot, he knows that dealing with the reapers is priority number one. TIM knows this too.

TIM and Cerberus are about power and keeping it. Their modus operandi is "the end justifies the means." TIM will be aligned with the Reapers for one purpose -- to have them kill Shepard, and that way he gets to blame the Reapers for it and take no responsibility.

You say that and yet you seem to have zero understanding of TIM's character if you think he would ally with the reapers. Perhaps you simply don't understand that TIM and Shepard are the only two people that got visions showing them exactly what the reapers are about. TIM is not going to make the mistake of allying with the reapers after he created Cerberus to protect humanity from the reapers.

His personal feeling for Shepard are irrelevant. He clearly knew what Shepard was worth when he decided to revive him. The events at the collector base, whatever choices made, won't change that.

[Eshaye]

Medhia Nox wrote...

That seems silly to me. It's an organization... yes, he's the brains behind it - but you're telling me he's not like the Shadow Broker? He's not just a vastly well connected and intelligent individual?

I read the first two novels... neither of them seem to indicate anything more than the fact the he invented Cerberus and is the "heart" of the organization.

So - when the Illusive Man dies... so does Cerberus? Nah - the cells operate individually. Any intelligent, connected person could run Cerberus... or it's a pitifully fragile organization.

It's in Retribution I think. The cells operate individually and are ignorant of other cells, it's been indicated that the Illusive Man takes a firm and ruthless grip on all of them and can only divide his attention so far, that's why there's a fix number of cells. TIM puts his own personal funds into Cerberus and manages funds from other sources, whihtout these sources he has to use his own, whithout his own Cerberus would fall apart. 

It's not out of the realm of possibility that someone else could come along and take control of Cerberus should they decide to go that way, but that's not really what's been indicated so far. Cerberus is run with one man's vision though, if you change the man do you change the vision? And would Cerberus still be Cerberus? 

Modifié par Eshaye, 14 juin 2011 - 01:45 .