33 réponses à ce sujet

[dantares83]

I don't know if this has been posted... haven't been playing or following the forums since DA2 was sort of disappointing...

anyway, I know that there is a new patch and

Anders can now SIDE WITH TEMPLARS!!!!

this is so stupid... the whole game is about Anders wanting to blow up the Chantry (and templars) and now, we are given a choice for him to side with them?

it is just weird and don't make sense... couldn't he just run away (but we don't have to kill him)...

oh well...

[CulturalGeekGirl]

This has been discussed quite a bit on the Anders thread and in other places... not that I expect you to wade through that glorious slog.

The rough idea is that, on the Rivalry Path, Anders has been convinced that he is a monster who is incapable of making his own decisions. He now looks to Hawke to make his decisions for him, because he can't trust himself.

There's also a strong implication that, after Hawke makes him side against the mages, Anders may kill himself. A lot of his dialogue at the Gallows implies this directly, depending on options that are chosen. At the end when Varric is finishing his story, he doesn't say "except for Anders" if a romanced Anders was forced to side with the Templars. A It's not confirmed whether or not it's a bug, but if it isn't a bug... Anders is willing to follow Hawke for a short period of time, but eventually either leaves or kills himself because he is now completely and totally crazy.

I'm not sure if this helps.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 13 juin 2011 - 07:52 .

[dantares83]

ooh really? thanks for the info! maybe it's worth playing it again just to see how it is like...
or anyone has a video?

[SurelyForth]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
A It's not confirmed whether or not it's a bug, but if it isn't a bug... Anders is willing to follow Hawke for a short period of time, but eventually either leaves or kills himself because he is now completely and totally crazy.

I'm not sure if this helps.

Or, because Hawke hangs around Kirkwall as Viscount for a while, he gets captured and executed for what he did. Which also makes a lot of sense.

[LobselVith8]

dantares83 wrote...

this is so stupid... the whole game is about Anders wanting to blow up the Chantry (and templars) and now, we are given a choice for him to side with them?

it is just weird and don't make sense... couldn't he just run away (but we don't have to kill him)... 

I still think Anders siding with the templars is OOC and makes no sense. Why would Anders help murder hundreds of men, women, and children who played no part in Anders' actions?

[SurelyForth]

LobselVith8 wrote...

dantares83 wrote...

this is so stupid... the whole game is about Anders wanting to blow up the Chantry (and templars) and now, we are given a choice for him to side with them?

it is just weird and don't make sense... couldn't he just run away (but we don't have to kill him)... 

I still think Anders siding with the templars is OOC and makes no sense. Why would Anders help murder hundreds of men, women, and children who played no part in Anders' actions?

Just...just pretend he's Ketojan at that point. He has no sense of self anymore because, between Hawke making him believe that everything he's been fighting for in Kirkwall is a wrong-headed mistake and Vengeance taking control of his body whenever he needs to take care of business, he's being pulled in two directions. All he can do at that point is listen to Hawke because...because. He wants to die, but Hawke won't kill him. He's made a huge ****ing mess and Hawke, who he does trust, is telling him that helping the templars would be a legitimate first step in setting  things right and, in his state of not being able to trust himself, his knee-jerk reaction that it's wrong to kill the mages is overwhelmed by so much self-doubt that he gives in. 

I would get into a whole killing Circle mages (who could be him!) as a parallel to self-immolation, but I won't. But I think it could be. 

[ipgd]

LobselVith8 wrote...

dantares83 wrote...

this is so stupid... the whole game is about Anders wanting to blow up the Chantry (and templars) and now, we are given a choice for him to side with them?

it is just weird and don't make sense... couldn't he just run away (but we don't have to kill him)... 

I still think Anders siding with the templars is OOC and makes no sense. Why would Anders help murder hundreds of men, women, and children who played no part in Anders' actions?

You seem to be very hung up on the idea of Anders choosing to do that.

And that's the thing. In his mental state at the time, he is not choosing to murder hundreds of men, women and children who played no part in his actions. He is choosing to follow Hawke. He is not considering the implications of that decision. You can very clearly see the guilt catching up to him as he begins to parse the reality of his choice, and it's heavily implied he plans to (and if the lack of Varric's line is any indication, does) kill himself. His core beliefs have not been changed -- he compromises them, briefly, in a broken, distressed state, and then lives to regret that immensely.

There is a big difference between him making a thought-out, reasoned decision to go against what he believes in and making a rash decision he regrets. The latter is completely consistent with his character, in the same way it's not "out of character" that he attacks Ella. It is obviously not something he'd ever do in a rational state, but when pushed to his emotional limit, he does.

Modifié par ipgd, 14 juin 2011 - 12:31 .

[dantares83]

poor Anders...

y did Bioware destroy the most interesting character in DA2...

[ipgd]

dantares83 wrote...

poor Anders...

y did Bioware destroy the most interesting character in DA2...

Because that is what a tragedy is.

[LT123]

dantares83 wrote...

poor Anders...

y did Bioware destroy the most interesting character in DA2...

Because watching the resulting trainwreck is glorious. Like ipgd said, it's a tragedy. It seems
like most people liked him in Awakening, which makes seeing what happens
to him in DA2 way worse than if the same thing had happened to say, Velanna-she's not as well-liked (when compared with Anders' popularity levels before DA2 came out.)

[Silfren]

dantares83 wrote...

poor Anders...

y did Bioware destroy the most interesting character in DA2...

I don't think of it as Bioware destroying him any more than any writer "destroys" a character they write as having a tragic downfall.

[Ryzaki]

LT123 wrote...

dantares83 wrote...

poor Anders...

y did Bioware destroy the most interesting character in DA2...

Because watching the resulting trainwreck is glorious. Like ipgd said, it's a tragedy. It seems
like most people liked him in Awakening, which makes seeing what happens
to him in DA2 way worse than if the same thing had happened to say, Velanna-she's not as well-liked (when compared with Anders' popularity levels before DA2 came out.)

God if it was Velanna...I'd murder knife her with glee. While humming showtunes. 

[CulturalGeekGirl]

They've somehow captured the feeling of watching your best friend go slowly crazy.

In game form!

New media is incapable of producing emotional connections, my butt.

[LobselVith8]

ipgd wrote...

You seem to be very hung up on the idea of Anders choosing to do that.

You realize this is a thread discussing that very issue... right?

ipgd wrote...

And that's the thing. In his mental state at the time, he is not choosing to murder hundreds of men, women and children who played no part in his actions. He is choosing to follow Hawke.

He's choosing to follow Hawke, who is going to aid in the murder of hundreds of men, women, and children, and Anders realizes this, and still goes along with it. Anders is cognitive enough to walk, talk, speak, and to fight with magical skill in complex combat; I don't find Anders siding with the templars to be in-character, personally.

ipgd wrote...

He is not considering the implications of that decision. You can very clearly see the guilt catching up to him as he begins to parse the reality of his choice, and it's heavily implied he plans to (and if the lack of Varric's line is any indication, does) kill himself. His core beliefs have not been changed -- he compromises them, briefly, in a broken, distressed state, and then lives to regret that immensely.

There is a big difference between him making a thought-out, reasoned decision to go against what he believes in and making a rash decision he regrets. The latter is completely consistent with his character, in the same way it's not "out of character" that he attacks Ella. It is obviously not something he'd ever do in a rational state, but when pushed to his emotional limit, he does.

And I find it OOC that Anders would help slaughter mages who are innocent of the act that he alone is responsible for. You have your opinion, and I have mine.

[ipgd]

LobselVith8 wrote...

and Anders realizes this

And that is where I disagree with you. If you don't want to interpret his steadily mounting guilt and statements regarding suicide as regret and remorse for participating in something he recognizes as abhorrent to him, I don't know what to say to you.

Anders on the rivalry path is very different person from who he is on the friendship path, and the entire rivalry path leads to a man who is completely broken, enough to defer his judgment entirely to another because he does not trust himself. Unless you consider the rivalry path as a whole as "out of character", it's really not that inconsistent with the years of treatment that preceded it.

Screaming, flipping tables and sucking your thumb in a fetal position are not the only kinds of mental breakdowns. Just because Anders can walk and talk does not mean he is mentally well.

Modifié par ipgd, 14 juin 2011 - 02:32 .

[Xewaka]

dantares83 wrote...
poor Anders...
y did Bioware destroy the most interesting character in DA2...

What are you talking about? The patch didn't touch Varric.

[Silfren]

LobselVith8 wrote...

ipgd wrote...

You seem to be very hung up on the idea of Anders choosing to do that.

You realize this is a thread discussing that very issue... right?

ipgd wrote...

And that's the thing. In his mental state at the time, he is not choosing to murder hundreds of men, women and children who played no part in his actions. He is choosing to follow Hawke.

He's choosing to follow Hawke, who is going to aid in the murder of hundreds of men, women, and children, and Anders realizes this, and still goes along with it. Anders is cognitive enough to walk, talk, speak, and to fight with magical skill in complex combat; I don't find Anders siding with the templars to be in-character, personally.

ipgd wrote...

He is not considering the implications of that decision. You can very clearly see the guilt catching up to him as he begins to parse the reality of his choice, and it's heavily implied he plans to (and if the lack of Varric's line is any indication, does) kill himself. His core beliefs have not been changed -- he compromises them, briefly, in a broken, distressed state, and then lives to regret that immensely.

There is a big difference between him making a thought-out, reasoned decision to go against what he believes in and making a rash decision he regrets. The latter is completely consistent with his character, in the same way it's not "out of character" that he attacks Ella. It is obviously not something he'd ever do in a rational state, but when pushed to his emotional limit, he does.

And I find it OOC that Anders would help slaughter mages who are innocent of the act that he alone is responsible for. You have your opinion, and I have mine.

Coming from the position of having struggled with mental illness myself, I can attest to the fact that people can walk, talk, and seem capable of at least basic functions, and still do self-destructive things that don't make a damn lick of sense in light of their personality.

You're not giving nearly enough credit to the fact that Anders is a broken man at this stage.  Broken, desperate people do things wildly out of character all the time. 

[dantares83]

maybe he is bipolar or suffers from multiple-split personalities...

coz he goes from Templars Hater to Templars Saver and (Mages Advocate to Mages Murderer) in seconds...

[DreamerM]

Anders does not go from "hater to saver" in seconds. He remains throughly unrepentant about what he's done. But he's broken by this.

Everyone says he'll kill himself later if you force him into this, but I can't help but think that the fact he follows you into this at all means that he's kind of surrendered his right to make those kinds of choices. You want him to live and suffer, and see his cause fall around his ears? He doesn't have the strength of will to object anymore. It's like he's barely there.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

DreamerM wrote...

Anders does not go from "hater to saver" in seconds. He remains throughly unrepentant about what he's done. But he's broken by this.

Everyone says he'll kill himself later if you force him into this, but I can't help but think that the fact he follows you into this at all means that he's kind of surrendered his right to make those kinds of choices. You want him to live and suffer, and see his cause fall around his ears? He doesn't have the strength of will to object anymore. It's like he's barely there.

Good point.

In Act 2 Hawke can say to Anders "I won't lose you, to Justice or the Templars" and he responds "strip away those things and how much is left?" or something to that effect.

If you make him completely suppress Justice and rob him of his ability to resist the Templars, you've basically driven him to the point where all of his willpower, all of his existence is consumed by controlling and hating parts of himself. He has no energy to resist or think for himsef, and so little of his identity left that he can't do more than simply obey Hawke.

[DreamerM]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

In Act 2 Hawke can say to Anders "I won't lose you, to Justice or the Templars" and he responds "strip away those things and how much is left?" or something to that effect.

in my personal!canon my Hawke could reply "enough," and remind him that Justice can't love either. But that's what personal!canon is for: talking back at fictional characters.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
If you make him completely suppress Justice and rob him of his ability to resist the Templars, you've basically driven him to the point where all of his willpower, all of his existence is consumed by controlling and hating parts of himself. He has no energy to resist or think for himsef, and so little of his identity left that he can't do more than simply obey Hawke.

One could say it's an irony that this was what it took for him to master Justice at last. He says at the end that he can still hear Justice clawing and screaming inside him, but the way he says it shows that Justice's screaming is all in vain. And for once, Justice is the one who is possessed, trapped in his own mind and powerless to stop himself.

[LobselVith8]

Silfren wrote...

Coming from the position of having struggled with mental illness myself, I can attest to the fact that people can walk, talk, and seem capable of at least basic functions, and still do self-destructive things that don't make a damn lick of sense in light of their personality.

I have relatives who have had and who currently have suffered the same, but my comments aren't directed toward mental illness; it's toward the idea that Anders has no idea what's going on, which simply isn't true when Anders is commenting on what's going on to a pro-templar Hawke.

Silfren wrote...

You're not giving nearly enough credit to the fact that Anders is a broken man at this stage.  Broken, desperate people do things wildly out of character all the time. 

I give credit to Anders being broken, I simply don't find it in-character for him to think genocide against his people is a viable option.

[Ryzaki]

DreamerM wrote...

Anders does not go from "hater to saver" in seconds. He remains throughly unrepentant about what he's done. But he's broken by this.

Everyone says he'll kill himself later if you force him into this, but I can't help but think that the fact he follows you into this at all means that he's kind of surrendered his right to make those kinds of choices. You want him to live and suffer, and see his cause fall around his ears? He doesn't have the strength of will to object anymore. It's like he's barely there.

Which is delicious.

Hawke pretty much made Anders what he hated the most. A slave. 

Poetic to me. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 15 juin 2011 - 02:33 .

[ipgd]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I have relatives who have had and who currently have suffered the same, but my comments aren't directed toward mental illness; it's toward the idea that Anders has no idea what's going on, which simply isn't true when Anders is commenting on what's going on to a pro-templar Hawke.

"Doesn't know what's going on" and "is not fully comprehending the consequences of his actions or decisions" are different things. He makes a knee-jerk decision to follow Hawke, because he does not trust himself and desperately wants to do something to make up for what he did, and once he has had the time to process what exactly that entails, hates himself for it and outright states his intentions to kill himself.

[DreamerM]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I have relatives who have had and who currently have suffered the same, but my comments aren't directed toward mental illness; it's toward the idea that Anders has no idea what's going on, which simply isn't true when Anders is commenting on what's going on to a pro-templar Hawke.

He knows what's going on. What he lacks is the will to do anything about it. He's made his big move, the largest move he'll ever make, and now he's like a dead man walking, just going where he's told and doing what he's told, because Hawke says so and Hawke is still a complete person. Anders isn't anymore.

I give credit to Anders being broken, I simply don't find it in-character for him to think genocide against his people is a viable option.

He doesn't think it's a viable option, and under other circumstances he'd kill Hawke himself before agreeing to this. But he can't fight anymore. He's just killed masses of innocent people in the name of his cause, and however much Justice demanded it, Anders himself is heartbroken and horrified even while he continues to justify his actions because he can't stop, Justice is in his mind and he can't tell the difference anymore. Maybe there isn't one.