148 réponses à ce sujet

[marshalleck]

2kgnsiika wrote...

Shepard's psychological condition has been (and should be IMO) largely up to the player. His psychological responses are part of who he is, and I wouldn't want BW to say "Okay, now you're supposed to be traumatized."

What "psychological" responses? Shepard has all the emotion of a brick wall. Never happy, never angry, never sad, never excited, nothing. It's all a dull monotone whether he's in bed with his love interest or executing criminals. It's like the guy is hopped up on enough lithium to tranquilize a horse.

Modifié par marshalleck, 14 juin 2011 - 06:14 .

[ZLurps]

I don't know about this. Some 10% of soldiers who have been in combat suffer from PTSD. Why should Shepard belong in this 10%?

Also, like many others has said earlier, taking control from the player in game like ME is very difficult to execute without frustrating players. Flashbacks on Normandy crash site were well done, but I don't think those were symptoms of PTSD but rather reminiscencing. Diagnosis for PTDS requires that sympton goes on for longer than a month and and cause significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

In general, I think that the big difference between film and games is in interaction. When we start scripting main character behavior in a game too far we also remove player input making player passive like film audience. It's kinda difficult to see a point in that.

[Had-to-say]

ZLurps wrote...

I don't know about this. Some 10% of soldiers who have been in combat suffer from PTSD. Why should Shepard belong in this 10%?

Also, like many others has said earlier, taking control from the player in game like ME is very difficult to execute without frustrating players. Flashbacks on Normandy crash site were well done, but I don't think those were symptoms of PTSD but rather reminiscencing. Diagnosis for PTDS requires that sympton goes on for longer than a month and and cause significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

In general, I think that the big difference between film and games is in interaction. When we start scripting main character behavior in a game too far we also remove player input making player passive like film audience. It's kinda difficult to see a point in that.

Are you trying to build a case for PTSD or against it?  When a soldier decides to take a life he doesn't script his emotional breakdown.  That **** just happens one day he goes to work and death is comical. As a player you would have no control of the visions and your reaction. That's what being crazy is like.  You have to seek treatment. 

I do like your point about the difference between film and games. I think some of you will have a very hard time if Shepard isn't as rock hard as he appears. I'd like to see my Shepards lose it.

[Eternalsteelfan]

marshalleck wrote...

2kgnsiika wrote...

Shepard's psychological condition has been (and should be IMO) largely up to the player. His psychological responses are part of who he is, and I wouldn't want BW to say "Okay, now you're supposed to be traumatized."

What "psychological" responses? Shepard has all the emotion of a brick wall. Never happy, never angry, never sad, never excited, nothing. It's all a dull monotone whether he's in bed with his love interest or executing criminals. It's like the guy is hopped up on enough lithium to tranquilize a horse.

I think this is the root of the problem, Shep could emote better. Mass Effect is an amazing series, it deserves better than a faceless, robotic protagonist (like Master Chief) and everything that brings him/her closer to life should be welcome. 

[olymind1]

in the E3 vids Shepard's face is desperate and sad enough, it was one of the first things i noticed immediately. even when he speaks he sounded rather hopeless. i think there will be a lot of drama

[Cosmar]

I agree with OP that Shep ought to be showing some signs of weakness or at least mental/emotional exhaustion.

Like the OP mentioned, the moment in ME1 (I believe after Virmire, when the Normandy was locked down) when Shep sat down angrily against the wall was a good moment for that.

Also, in LotSB in ME2, the conversation with Liara on the Normandy where they discuss how Shepard is feeling, and he/she could respond "worried" etc., that was also good.

I just think more dialogue/cinematics like that would do the trick. Other than those couple moments, Shep has pretty muc just been a tool for shooting guns and mercs and geth and Collectors.

[AshleyS3]

ZLurps wrote...

I don't know about this. Some 10% of soldiers who have been in combat suffer from PTSD. Why should Shepard belong in this 10%?

Shepard isn't just any soldier. He/She died! I can't even imagine that kind of trauma (and the way it happened looked excruciating). He/She was rebuilt; so much of Shepard isn't the same anymore physically which would be extremely tough to deal with as well (identity issues).

So even if we ignore everything Shepard has been through throughout the story (which is substantial and not at all ordinary) dying and being rebuilt would be enough to eff anyone up psychologically.  

Nobody has gone through what Shepard has gone through. I think it's safe to say that he/she is deeply damaged.

Modifié par AshleyS3, 15 juin 2011 - 05:03 .

[Parah_Salin]

That worked for dead space, but this is a different game. I'm totally sick of psychological horror getting everywhere. Can I please shoot something without hallucinating dead children?

And yeah, part of Shepard's character is that he/she is insanely driven, determined, independent, and tough as nails. I'm not saying people like that don't ever have psychological issues like PTSD, but it just doesn't fit with this character in this story. Shepard is battling Reapers, not an Oedipus complex.

[AshleyS3]

Parah_Salin wrote...

That worked for dead space, but this is a different game. I'm totally sick of psychological horror getting everywhere. Can I please shoot something without hallucinating dead children?

I don't think most of us are for the hallucinating, but more subtle ways of expressing psychological distress (player's choice, ideally).

[Eternalsteelfan]

I'm sorry, I've never played Dead Space, but from the advertisements I've seen I don't see the correlation. There's been a few comments about it, but it seems like a very different game then Mass Effect. I don't think it's a good reference for psychological aspects of ME.

[Parah_Salin]

Yeah, I'm fine with that, like in LotSB when Liara asks what your fighting for. I'm more talking about having Dead Space/F.E.A.R. style hallucinations and then giving Shepard a PTSD diagnosis and a bottle of Xanax.

EDIT: Added a few minutes later...

Eternalsteelfan wrote...

I'm sorry, I've never played Dead
Space, but from the advertisements I've seen I don't see the
correlation. There's been a few comments about it, but it seems like a
very different game then Mass Effect. I don't think it's a good
reference for psychological aspects of ME.

Well, from playing Dead Space, you hallucenate a variety of things (though not children... your girlfriend mostly) because your character is going kind of crazy. The OP said he was wishing the kid in the video had beeing a hallucenation. So the comparison is with another game that had in-game hallucenations of emotional things.

Modifié par Parah_Salin, 15 juin 2011 - 05:36 .

[Had-to-say]

Parah_Salin wrote...

Yeah, I'm fine with that, like in LotSB when Liara asks what your fighting for. I'm more talking about having Dead Space/F.E.A.R. style hallucinations and then giving Shepard a PTSD diagnosis and a bottle of Xanax.

EDIT: Added a few minutes later...

Eternalsteelfan wrote...

I'm sorry, I've never played Dead
Space, but from the advertisements I've seen I don't see the
correlation. There's been a few comments about it, but it seems like a
very different game then Mass Effect. I don't think it's a good
reference for psychological aspects of ME.

Well, from playing Dead Space, you hallucenate a variety of things (though not children... your girlfriend mostly) because your character is going kind of crazy. The OP said he was wishing the kid in the video had beeing a hallucenation. So the comparison is with another game that had in-game hallucenations of emotional things.

Thanks.  I watched Dead Space the animated movie. Wasn't there a device on that planet that causes people to go crazy? So is the main character Isaac is it , is he suffering from PTSD or is he just scared out of his mind? I think this is a highly underrated game by the way. Game was so scary I couldn't finish it. I would love to go back and try it again. I would always play it at night.
 
I think the tactic is overused in Dead Space. It kinda cheapens the experience to see it over and over again. I don't want it to become a gameplay mechanic problem. 

What I thought was the kid was a personification of Shepard's Pysche.  

[Eternalsteelfan]

Well, being the OP I can state that the subject I'm trying to discuss and draw attention to ('This brings me to my point...") is not specifically hallucinations and PTSD but rather the general need for Shephard to have some repercussions, effects, weaknesses, what have you, from the huge amounts of mentall and physical trauma he has endured. I bring this up again because some seem to still be shoehorning the purpose of this thread into hallucinations.

[daigakuinsei]

Shep = Badass In Chief. No hallucinations, no PTSD. Thanks.

[blind black]

I think having Shepard show some sort of weakness is a good thing (by players choice of course). Im not saying hallucinations (i dont know why everyone keeps saying this) but some sort of trauma.

[Guitar-Hero]

Eternalsteelfan wrote...

I was disappointed when I read in the stickied IGN article that the boy in the vents from the Earth demo was real. There was some psychological theorizing going on that the boy may have been a hallucination or figment of Shephard's mind. This made sense to me considering the traumas Shephard has been through, for example: the experience of the Prothean beacon, the inability to save his friend or lover on Virmire, the assault on the Citadel, death/rebirth, and now the greatest nightmare realized: the invasion of Earth by the reapers with millions upon millions dying. This brings me to my point: along with being savior of the galaxy, Shephard is a flawed, imperfect human being; as such, there should be some wearing on his mind. Despite his badassitude and the weight of the universe on his shoulders, every human has a breaking point.

Under the kind of stresses Shephard has been exposed to, it's only reasonable to expect some signs of duress or weakness. In Mass Effect (the first) there was one brief moment I recall before the final planet where Shephard was sitting down against the wall, this is the only time I can think of Shephard showing his mortality. Post-Traumatic Stress is terribly common amongst soldiers and anyone who faces strong traumas like death, near death, and even the deaths or near deaths of others. We need to see Shephard showing some signs of the mental wear he has doubtlessly experienced.

I'm a film student with a concentration on screenwriting whom has nearly finished his education, as such I have some authority, take it for what it's worth, when I say the greatest protagonists (and antagonists!) are the ones whose struggles we can seen and experience, those who are flawed and show weakness at times. If this finale is to be as emotionally impactful as Bioware claims, we're going to need to see past Shepard's the facade of strength.

TL;DR
Despite his badassitude, Shephard needs some moments of weakness in light of the three games full of tragedy.

I couldn't agree more, it makes for a more relatable/human character, some sort of sequence that is connected to his childhood would also make for a lasting impression, thank you for the read, it was very insightfull.

[Shad0wOGRE]

Shepard is like an onion. When you peel away the layers of awesome badass you just get even more awesome badass, not some whiny emo douche.

[BloodySerpent]

All the great characters in literary history had depth to them. Sheperd being an onion where "you peel away layers of awesome badass" and just get "even more awesome badass" is ridiculously stupid. Apparently having depth and actual layers of character is emo to some people. Bioware said they wanted to establish more of an emotional connection to Sheperd in this game. That means they realized they've failed to do so in the previous games. And a character who's just an empty shell of kick-ass doesn't establish an emotional connection.

Emo is being Anakin Skywalker who is always depressed and whining. Character depth is not emo (in fact, Anakin's emo-ness made him have no depth at all).

Is Garrus emo for having an actual character arc and struggle in his ME2 story? Is Thane emo for his emotional struggles with reconnecting with his son?

And someone used the analogy of Batman before. Most people here probably enjoyed The Dark Knight a lot, and don't think Batman is a "whiny emo douche". Well, there were scenes in Dark Knight where Batman struggled greatly over the loss of the girl he loved and almost abandoned being Batman all together. Sheperd would have just said "she died for a good cause" and would proceed to move on to the next mission. This isn't a perfect example, but it's an example nontheless.

Modifié par BloodySerpent, 15 juin 2011 - 08:12 .

[Eternalsteelfan]

BloodySerpent wrote...

All the great characters in literary history had depth to them. Sheperd being an onion where "you peel away layers of awesome badass" and just get "even more awesome badass" is ridiculously stupid. Apparently having depth and actual layers of character is emo to some people. Bioware said they wanted to establish more of an emotional connection to Sheperd in this game. That means they realized they've failed to do so in the previous games. And a character who's just an empty shell of kick-ass doesn't establish an emotional connection.

Emo is being Anakin Skywalker who is always depressed and whining. Character depth is not emo (in fact, Anakin's emo-ness made him have no depth at all).

Is Garrus emo for having an actual character arc and struggle in his ME2 story? Is Thane emo for his emotional struggles with reconnecting with his son?

And someone used the analogy of Batman before. Most people here probably enjoyed The Dark Knight a lot, and don't think Batman is a "whiny emo douche". Well, there were scenes in Dark Knight where Batman struggled greatly over the loss of the girl he loved and almost abandoned being Batman all together. Sheperd would have just said "she died for a good cause" and would proceed to move on to the next mission. This isn't a perfect example, but it's an example nontheless.

Whole post= well put

[Warkupo]

Many characters express the fact that Shepard is remarkably strong willed, and that a normal person would have been crushed under the weight of psychological trauma he has endured. It is a defining characteristic of his. Suddenly attributing him with hallucinations would be stupid.

[ZLurps]

Had-to-say wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

I don't know about this. Some 10% of soldiers who have been in combat suffer from PTSD. Why should Shepard belong in this 10%?

Also, like many others has said earlier, taking control from the player in game like ME is very difficult to execute without frustrating players. Flashbacks on Normandy crash site were well done, but I don't think those were symptoms of PTSD but rather reminiscencing. Diagnosis for PTDS requires that sympton goes on for longer than a month and and cause significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

In general, I think that the big difference between film and games is in interaction. When we start scripting main character behavior in a game too far we also remove player input making player passive like film audience. It's kinda difficult to see a point in that.

Are you trying to build a case for PTSD or against it?  When a soldier decides to take a life he doesn't script his emotional breakdown.  That **** just happens one day he goes to work and death is comical. As a player you would have no control of the visions and your reaction. That's what being crazy is like.  You have to seek treatment. 

I do like your point about the difference between film and games. I think some of you will have a very hard time if Shepard isn't as rock hard as he appears. I'd like to see my Shepards lose it.

I got an idea.
Treatment is bit difficult to execute, because we can't have dr Chakwas or her equivalent around everywhere but what if treament were some sort of pills?
We could have scene where Shepard really starts to feel like walls are closing down on him. The whole world starts to look and feel like a somesort of maze.
Then s/he stars having hallucinations like s/he swells... to the point where s/he is round, round lika a ball and yellow. Only way to escape from this twisted creation of tramatised mind is to collect pills, lots of pills that float on the floor of maze. To make this make more challening to player Shepards paranoid mind also creates illusion of three evil Reapers, Harby, Sovvy and whatever that try to chase him/her down in a maze. If Shepard can successfully collect enough pills, s/he then returns back into reality.

I think that would really be something else. Imagine player reactions. You are fighting against Husks, desperately trying to save your LI and then * SNAP * Oh sh**...

I don't think players would forget that experience anytime soon.

Modifié par ZLurps, 15 juin 2011 - 09:24 .

[BloodySerpent]

How can Mass Effect ever hope to be a definitely outstanding storyline if the main protagonist has no character traits besides being badass?

Videogames are becoming increasingly similar to films (or try to be anyway), which makes it harder to accept stale characters. It's easy to accept a bland character in a videogame such as Tekken or even Zelda where Link isn't much of a character (come on now, he's not. I still love him though lol), but in games that try to be very cinematic like movies, then characters have to become fleshed out like in movies too.

Modifié par BloodySerpent, 15 juin 2011 - 11:21 .

[Aimi]

BloodySerpent wrote...

How can Mass Effect ever hope to be a definitely outstanding storyline if the main protagonist has no character traits besides being badass?

How can Mass Effect ever hope to be a role playing game if the protagonist's character traits aren't determined by the players?

[marshalleck]

daqs wrote...

BloodySerpent wrote...

How can Mass Effect ever hope to be a definitely outstanding storyline if the main protagonist has no character traits besides being badass?

How can Mass Effect ever hope to be a role playing game if the protagonist's character traits aren't determined by the players?

Exactly. And right now our choices are unshakeable badass and unshakeable badass.

They should make some paragon interrupts cause Shepard to start crying or have some other emotional outburst. That would be awesome.

Modifié par marshalleck, 15 juin 2011 - 11:26 .

[BloodySerpent]

daqs wrote...

BloodySerpent wrote...

How can Mass Effect ever hope to be a definitely outstanding storyline if the main protagonist has no character traits besides being badass?

How can Mass Effect ever hope to be a role playing game if the protagonist's character traits aren't determined by the players?

Are you saying that a role-playing game by definition means the main character can't have character?

Obviously, the character moments of Sheperd would be determined based upon what dialogue option you choose. Or, you could say dialogue where it wouldn't even be a character moment. That way, you can be non-stop badass, or you can have character beyond that, etc. It will be up to you.

Also, character traits (if you can find any) of Sheperd AREN'T determined by the players. Sheperd is badass, end of story lol. You can't really control that. All you can control is whether or not you're a kind badass or a jerk badass. That's the extent of it.

And if you REALLY want to take your argument to heart, then what about everything else about Sheperd's character that isn't left up to the player? Can we choose to be EVIL instead of being a hero for once? (Like in KOTOR, you can either save the galaxy or end up not saving the galaxy). In Mass Effect, you can either try to save the galaxy as a nice guy, or try to save the galaxy as a mean guy. Either way, you're trying to save the galaxy. Where's the player choice in that? What if Sheperd actually decided, "You know what? Saren's right. I'm gonna join him, like he asked" lol. Guess we'll never know, since Sheperd's decision to not accept Saren's offer wasn't up to player choice. Does this mean ME isn't an RPG??? No, ME is still an RPG.

So, lets not argue that ME isn't an RPG cause we don't get to choose. There's a LOT in ME that you don't get to choose. And I don't really have a problem with that, I'm just saying that since you said ME isn't an RPG if players don't get choice.

Anyway, all the story events that bring about a character moment in Sheperd SHOULD be triggered by the player, via diaogue option and whatnot.

But before we can argue how Sheperd's character traits should be shown, there needs to BE character traits in the first place.

Modifié par BloodySerpent, 15 juin 2011 - 11:50 .