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[Dragonella1]

 
Probably it was combination of many factors I just listed below some I thought about.


Political background:
There is evidence that mages are already close to rebellion. It would be rather strange if most mages in Thedas have sudden attack of death wish and rebelled without any chance for success so probably there are some factors that encourage them. My hypothesis is that there are promises of support form secular leaders. Magic is an important military resource so it seems natural that some kings would be willing to break the chantry monopoly on magic and grasp control themselves. So long they where kept in line by alliance between the chantry and Orlais, but now Orlais is weaken, it has lost wars with Ferelden and Nevarra. The chantry has also problems with scholars of the University of Orlais (according to strategy guide).
There is also possibility that mages managed to organized strong underground along Thedas but it seems rather difficult without outside support (maybe Tevinter is not as passive as it seems).


Circumstances of Meredith's death
In the eyes of faithful follower of the Chantry of Light her death looks like: Knight Commander got possessed (or performed extrimly sinnful sort of magic) and got struck by the Maker himself. Stories (probably highly exaggerated) would provide good argument for secular rulers to challenge Templar control over circles (haw we can trust Templars to police mages when obviously the order is deeply corrupt). Not to mention simple folk that would make every Templar who got a bit too high on lyrium into a monster flying in full armor and doing naughty things to Andraste statue.

Hawke
Hawke is a dragon age world celebrity. At least we know that his/her deeds are known in Tevinter and Ferelden. By his/her involvement Hawke changes conflict that for most people would be just another locall mage related problem into event that gets whole media cover. What in Thedas means probably stories told in taverns and song sang by bards.
Destruction of Chantry
Anders by blowing up chantry and killing the grand cleric broke “taboo” that protected chantry so far. From now on chantry and clergy are possible targets like anyone else. The other aspect is that criminal who did this might be executed by local hero, killed in battle or survived anyway no sight of Maker's intervention instead the Maker struck Templar’s Knight Commander. The possible explanations of that paradox that comes to the minds of faithful chantry followers would be:

• crimes of Templars were so horrible that they overshadowed, in eyes of the Maker, even destruction of temple and killing His faithful servants (really bad for Templars)
• the Maker doesn't care about the Chantry anymore, as they are no longer His voice. The Chantry is corrupt and it's time to come back to original worlds of the Prophet. (really bad for Chantry and good start for development of heresy or reformation).

[Mickespel]

My guess is that Tevinter are behind a lot of the trouble lately. Guess who will supply the revolting mages with an army of mercenaries now? So who will will back up the templars with mages? Sure the templars probably have a handful of loyalists mages but I guess most loyalist are loyal to the Chantry rather then the templars. I cannot see how they can expect to win this.

[LobselVith8]

A near majority of mages wanted emancipation from the Chantry during Amaranthine, which is why Wynne was going to Cumberland to persuade them against breaking away from the Chantry (since she argued it would mean the death of the mages at the hands of the Chantry of Andraste and its Order of Templars).

As for why the mages would rise up, the Knight-Commander condemned an entire population of men, women, and children to execution simply because they were mages in the Circle of Kirkwall, and she was ordering her templars to kill them to appease the mob; the mages were innocent of the act that Anders was responsible for, so I can see how Wynne's argument became null and void when they saw the templars would kill them in Rights of Annulment, even for acts that no Circle mage committed.

[ddv.rsa]

LobselVith8 wrote...

A near majority of mages wanted emancipation from the Chantry during Amaranthine, which is why Wynne was going to Cumberland to persuade them against breaking away from the Chantry (since she argued it would mean the death of the mages at the hands of the Chantry of Andraste and its Order of Templars).

As for why the mages would rise up, the Knight-Commander condemned an entire population of men, women, and children to execution simply because they were mages in the Circle of Kirkwall, and she was ordering her templars to kill them to appease the mob; the mages were innocent of the act that Anders was responsible for, so I can see how Wynne's argument became null and void when they saw the templars would kill them in Rights of Annulment, even for acts that no Circle mage committed.

But how well known would these facts be? And when survivors claim they weren't involved, will everyone just take their word for it? I don't see how mages accross Thedas can pull enough facts out of Kirkwall to do something as drastic as a continental revolution. Even Cassandra doesn't know what happened.

There must be more to it.

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 13 juin 2011 - 07:36 .

[LobselVith8]

Mickespel wrote...

My guess is that Tevinter are behind a lot of the trouble lately. Guess who will supply the revolting mages with an army of mercenaries now? So who will will back up the templars with mages? Sure the templars probably have a handful of loyalists mages but I guess most loyalist are loyal to the Chantry rather then the templars. I cannot see how they can expect to win this.

Tevinter? You mean from Act III's Faith? I don't know how accurate Leliana's speculations are when she thinks the Resolutionists are behind everything while Meredith managed to get the nobles, the common people, the mages, and even her own templars to think she should be ousted. I disagree with Leliana: Meredith caused the unrest, not some group we only hear about once in seven years, and never again.

ddv.rsa wrote...

But how well known would these facts be? And when survivors claim they weren't involved, will everyone just take their word for it? I don't see how mages accross Thedas can pull enough facts out of Kirkwall to do something as drastic as a continental revolution. Even Cassandra doesn't know what happened.

There must be more to it.

The pro-mage ending has Varric address that many lived to tell the tale because of Hawke's actions, but I'd have to imagine it was more brutal than all the previous Rights of Annulment to inspire the mages to emancipate from the Chantry and the Order of Templars. If it's known that the Champion of Kirkwall took a stand against Meredith, then it might give credence to the survivors saying they were innocent, and Meredith did end up being turned into a lyrium statute in the courtyard of the Gallows.

There's also the question of how mages would be inspired because a pro-templar Hawke who sided with Meredith and helped annul the Circle of Kirkwall defeated the mages, but somehow interpret from this story that "the templars can be defied." Hawke becomes a hero to one group, and a villain to the others, depending on the choice made, but I don't see a pro-templar Hawke ending explaining why the mages would rebel when nothing showed that the templars could be defied.

[Mickespel]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Mickespel wrote...

My guess is that Tevinter are behind a lot of the trouble lately. Guess who will supply the revolting mages with an army of mercenaries now? So who will will back up the templars with mages? Sure the templars probably have a handful of loyalists mages but I guess most loyalist are loyal to the Chantry rather then the templars. I cannot see how they can expect to win this.

Tevinter? You mean from Act III's Faith? I don't know how accurate Leliana's speculations are when she thinks the Resolutionists are behind everything while Meredith managed to get the nobles, the common people, the mages, and even her own templars to think she should be ousted. I disagree with Leliana: Meredith caused the unrest, not some group we only hear about once in seven years, and never again.

I was more thinking of the whole mage vs templar war. I can imagine that Tevinter agents work hard to make sure that it goes their way.

[maxernst]

Well, we don't know what the circumstances were of the other Rites of Annullment. The only other one we know anything about was a situation so out of control that Gregoir probably thought everyone was either posessed or dead. And we don't know if previous occasions were even known about. Ferelden's Circle is on an island in a lake, where the rite could have been carried out quietly. Kirkwall is a city.

Tevinter's involvement is an interesting suggestion. Maybe Danarius had other reasons to have agents in Kirkwall than killing Fenris. Could Tarohne have actually had help from someone outside? Her plan of taking over the Circle might not have been completely impossible.

[sphinxess]

Maybe Tevinter ran a very successful propaganda war - told all the circles that Meredith hired someone to blow up the chantry to kill the grand cleric and give her total power. How many that remain alive really know Anders part?

[Maria13]

Well, the mages fought back for once and Kirkwall is a major commercial centre sited right in the middle of Thedas.

[ddv.rsa]

sphinxess wrote...

Maybe Tevinter ran a very successful propaganda war - told all the circles that Meredith hired someone to blow up the chantry to kill the grand cleric and give her total power. How many that remain alive really know Anders part?

Is there anything to suggest that Tevinter is involved? I don't see what they would have to gain. If the rest of Thedas was weakened the Qunari might stop skirmishing and launch a full scale offensive. 

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 14 juin 2011 - 12:02 .

[haroldhardluck]

ddv.rsa wrote...
But how well known would these facts be? And when survivors claim they weren't involved, will everyone just take their word for it? I don't see how mages accross Thedas can pull enough facts out of Kirkwall to do something as drastic as a continental revolution. Even Cassandra doesn't know what happened.

There must be more to it.

Cassandra does not know the details and what she does know, is generally false. What this shows is the facts of what actually happen does not matter. What matters is what people think happened. The only fact that really matters is the mages successfully fought the Rite of Annulment in Kirkwall.

If the relationship between the mages and templars were at their best in DAO, it is at their worst in DA2. From the hints given with the Wynne incident in Awakening, it appears that the general situation in Thedas has been deteriorating for some time. What happened in Kirkwall is simply the spark that ignites a blowup that has been building up.

So the facts are almost irrelevant beyond the one fact that the mages in Kirkwall successfully fought the templars with the help of the Champion. The mages will believe whatever  other "facts" most suits their political position. Just as in real life.

Harold

[Huntress]

MY question about what happen in DA2 is: what will wynne think of my hawke? hehe
My warden told her in DAA that it was a good start and she was so angry.. now what would she say?
Is she a loyalist? Can't remember and my new wardens are very low levels and none are mages.

[Torax]

Huntress wrote...

MY question about what happen in DA2 is: what will wynne think of my hawke? hehe
My warden told her in DAA that it was a good start and she was so angry.. now what would she say?
Is she a loyalist? Can't remember and my new wardens are very low levels and none are mages.

Whose to say she would still be alive. You're talking 9+ years since talking to her in Awakenings. Just saying.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Huntress wrote...

MY question about what happen in DA2 is: what will wynne think of my hawke? hehe
My warden told her in DAA that it was a good start and she was so angry.. now what would she say?
Is she a loyalist? Can't remember and my new wardens are very low levels and none are mages.

I believe it has been established that Wynne is an Aequitarian (they believe that the circle should work together with the Chantry, but also that it's feasible to try to gain more freedoms while retaining the same basic structure.) They were previously allied with the Loyalists, and some think that what Anders is trying to do (and probalby succeeded at) was to make the Aequitarians decide to stop kowtowing to the Loyalists and either side with the Libertarians or go on to head their own independent faction.

As for why Kirkwall was special... two things. Firstly the ROA was called on account of the actions of an apostate, not because of anything actually happening in the Circle, and Secondly the blood magery going on in Kirkwall is larely believed to be a result of Meredith's abuses, rather than just one bad mage deciding he randomly needed power (as it was in DA:O). Everyone in the Kirkwall circle basically says "I wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't my last chance at survival!," whereas all the blood mages in DA:O's circle were more like "mwhahaha, powah!" 

[Keatons]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

As for why Kirkwall was special... two things. Firstly the ROA was called on account of the actions of an apostate, not because of anything actually happening in the Circle, and Secondly the blood magery going on in Kirkwall is larely believed to be a result of Meredith's abuses, rather than just one bad mage deciding he randomly needed power (as it was in DA:O). Everyone in the Kirkwall circle basically says "I wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't my last chance at survival!," whereas all the blood mages in DA:O's circle were more like "mwhahaha, powah!" 

Well, not to be a nitpicker but Huon was kind of like that, and Grace was basically (if I'm remembering this right) "**** you, Hawke" at the end. Just saying.

But back to the ROA, I'm pretty sure that Greagoir had sent word to Denerim requesting not only reinforcements but also use the Rite. So perhaps the templars aren't supposed to be calling the Rite of their own volition. Under 'normal' circumstances where say, a chantry cathedral hasn't been blown up or something.

[Dragonella1]

ddv.rsa wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

A near majority of mages wanted emancipation from the Chantry during Amaranthine, which is why Wynne was going to Cumberland to persuade them against breaking away from the Chantry (since she argued it would mean the death of the mages at the hands of the Chantry of Andraste and its Order of Templars).

As for why the mages would rise up, the Knight-Commander condemned an entire population of men, women, and children to execution simply because they were mages in the Circle of Kirkwall, and she was ordering her templars to kill them to appease the mob; the mages were innocent of the act that Anders was responsible for, so I can see how Wynne's argument became null and void when they saw the templars would kill them in Rights of Annulment, even for acts that no Circle mage committed.

But how well known would these facts be? And when survivors claim they weren't involved, will everyone just take their word for it? I don't see how mages accross Thedas can pull enough facts out of Kirkwall to do something as drastic as a continental revolution. Even Cassandra doesn't know what happened.

There must be more to it.

 
That is good question what are sources of information about events in Kirkwall. I think that general knowledge like the Chantry exploded, Grand Cleric got killed, things got really bad between mages and templars, and something happened to Meredith, as well as Champion left city or become viscount is assessable for anybody who visits Kirkwall. But what about more sensitive facts like details of Rite of Annulment and Meredith's end ?
I can think of the following sources:
survived templars:
official version – probably Cullen had to prepare a report. You can't be the only one high rang templar in city that in very short time lost a cathedral, grand cleric, knight commander and circle without answering some questions from Grand Cathedral
unofficial version – even if they were told to keep their mouths shut templars are only human. They participated in mass execution (involving slaying young children), fought abominations, saw their knight commander doing strange things (to put it lightly) and changing into a statue. I guess some of them would try to smooth their nerves in the Hanged Man and some stories would leaked out.
Surviving mages:
at least we know that they are main sources of information for other circle in pro-mage ending, unfortunately they seem to be very poor source as most of them weren't even present when Rite was actually called and when Meredith got “petrified” .
Hawke and company
In pro – templar ending it's they probably tell some stories while Hawke acts as viscount
In pro-mage there is possibility of some contacts with mage underground, especially when Anders is still alive.

[noneofyourbussines77]

Anders "plan" makes no sense if you bring him on Faith. An exalted march may be called and you response is to blow up a chantry? That is the best thing to do if you want to get an exalted march on your mage friends.

[MinotaurWarrior]

No matter who you side with, at the end of the game a mage blew up the Chantry in a major city. This makes a lot of people want to kill mages very badly, and makes mages everywhere fear for their survival even more than usual. When there is an angry mob at their doorstep, the mages aren't just going to let the Templars (who have just attempted to anulled a whole circle) keep them from escaping.

Anders puts fear into the hearts of men, which in turn puts fear into the heart of the mages. Fear leads to hate, hate leads to the dark side.

[Foolsfolly]

The problem with saying Tevinter is involved is that Tevinter gains nothing from being involved. As they've been shown so far Tevinter mages only care about power, personal power (magical might) seems to be of the utmost importance in their culture.

Why help the caged mages of other nations? They're not concerned with freeing their brethren, they'd sell out their own families for more political power. They have a culture where slavery is expected and accepted. If the mages of Thedas are caged and chained then they deserve to be because they don't have the power to unchain themselves.

That's always the feeling I've gotten from the Tevinters in game. They're like...fantasy Objectivist extremists. Could be wrong though, we have such little interaction with them. But they're always told to be selfish and I really doubt they'd help out other mages for no real benefit.

[TEWR]

The only way I can see them aiding the mages is if the rogue Templar army that's hunting the mages tries to take on the Imperium.


The rogue Templar army may make a lot of people join up with the mages because those people may have free mages with them (Grey Wardens, Rivaini, Chasind, Elves, etc.).


It becomes not just a war of freedom to all mages to them and more of a war for being able to live how they want to without having to fear the Templars hounding them.

[Dragonella1]

Foolsfolly wrote...

The problem with saying Tevinter is involved is that Tevinter gains nothing from being involved. As they've been shown so far Tevinter mages only care about power, personal power (magical might) seems to be of the utmost importance in their culture.

Why help the caged mages of other nations? They're not concerned with freeing their brethren, they'd sell out their own families for more political power. They have a culture where slavery is expected and accepted. If the mages of Thedas are caged and chained then they deserve to be because they don't have the power to unchain themselves.

That's always the feeling I've gotten from the Tevinters in game. They're like...fantasy Objectivist extremists. Could be wrong though, we have such little interaction with them. But they're always told to be selfish and I really doubt they'd help out other mages for no real benefit.

 
Ancient Tevinter conquered almost all the continent, modern Tevinter exists in spite been under constant pressure from the White Chantry controlled countries and Qunari. Regardless how selfish and powder hungry the Magisters are they have to have some political instincts and there are possible reasons for Tevintar to want the White Chantry weaken:

• they might consider the White Chantry not so reliable ally against Qunari  (After all the White Chantry dominated countries signed the treaty with Qunari leaving Tevinter alone at war)
• before Qunari attacks, the White Divine called for exalted march against Tevinter, there is still risk that with zealous Divine it might happen again
• and even if mages rebellion would fall, Tevinter can always gain an influx of magically talented refugee who can be conscripted into an army and used against Qunari.

[DKJaigen]

Foolsfolly wrote...

The problem with saying Tevinter is involved is that Tevinter gains nothing from being involved. As they've been shown so far Tevinter mages only care about power, personal power (magical might) seems to be of the utmost importance in their culture.

Why help the caged mages of other nations? They're not concerned with freeing their brethren, they'd sell out their own families for more political power. They have a culture where slavery is expected and accepted. If the mages of Thedas are caged and chained then they deserve to be because they don't have the power to unchain themselves.

That's always the feeling I've gotten from the Tevinters in game. They're like...fantasy Objectivist extremists. Could be wrong though, we have such little interaction with them. But they're always told to be selfish and I really doubt they'd help out other mages for no real benefit.

What you knwo about politics wouldnt fill a coffeecup. As the saying goes the enemy of my enemy is my friend and the Tevinter imperium can gain a lot by helping the mages.

For the answer why the mages would enmass rebel is quite easy. For nearly a millenium the chantry controlled the circles because the circles themselves are divided . The loyalist + equatarian alliance kept circles within chantry domain. But Kirkwall most likely destroyed that alliance ,as the chantry is no longer seen as a protector but as ruthless tyrant, in favor for a new libertarian + equatarian alliance. No longer divided the circles rebel 

Modifié par DKJaigen, 27 juin 2011 - 10:13 .

[Foolsfolly]

What you knwo about politics wouldnt fill a coffeecup. As the saying goes the enemy of my enemy is my friend and the Tevinter imperium can gain a lot by helping the mages.

Oh, nice.

So their constant war with the Qunari that has raged for oh, say, 300 years wouldn't put a damper in that? I mean if they spread out into the south with their army wouldn't that make them weaker to the resist the Qunari?

Spreading themselves thin (they're not the once mighty Imperium anymore).

And that's the thing you're forgetting. They're in decline. Without slaves they have no economy, they cannot expand because they're constantly at war, and they're ruled by mage families and lords who are indulgent and self-centered.

It's very likely the most interesting place in Thedas we've yet to visit. But they're not some all might army anymore. They can battle the qunari to a standstill. But they very well can't take on the Qunari and all Thedas for a fight they gain nothing from.

And they gain nothing from helping the Mages of Thedas. For a price they'll smuggle people into Tevinter. They might even do some slaving raids while the rest of the nations are weak in their civil wars. But they couldn't take on the Andrastian states and the Qunari at the same time. They'd lose.

The magisters would look at their options, profit a little from black market trade, some nice slaving, and stay out of it. I truly doubt the senate would view this war as their business, officially (since again I see them selling goods and people because they're always after an advantage and wealth and power). Because if they weaken themselves a little the Qunari will press the attack harder.

I honestly think many posters on these boards here "Tevinter" and think "Mage Paradise." They're slavers and profiteers out for number one. They'll do as they always do, profit from the war but not fight for some ideal such a 'freedom.' It's absurd.

EDIT:

And what's this 'enemy of my enemy' BS? They're not at war with the Orleisan Chantry. They haven't been for centuries. They just ignore each other.

It's not 'enemy of my enemy' it's more like 'enemy of acquaintance'.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 27 juin 2011 - 10:43 .

[DreamerM]

An all-out war between Templars and Mages would be a golden opportunity for the Tevinter. Every apostate and every family with a mage-blooded child is going to want to move there. If there's one thing that might make you tolerant of blood-magic and slavery, it's the knowledge that the "good" place you used to be able to go will now lock you in a cell and/or kill you on principle.

And with all the mages in all of Thedas united under their Black Divine, then, well I'm guessing it's party in the Imperium time. And by Party I mean BLOW UP EVERYTHING.

[Dragonageloverrr]

Mages get treated unfairly everywhere they go in this world i think the battle between mages and templars have just begun and its gonna it pretty badly