25 réponses à ce sujet

[Panzavecchia]

I hope it does because unlike the 2, which benefited a full paragon/renegade. (Jack and Miranda fight, Tali and Legion...) I was full Paragon against my will because I disagree with a Shepard only taking one path. I find it more realistic to say what fits in best...

[nitrog100]

I think there's an option for that. The Paragon/Renegade bonus that you can choose to upgrade in Combat Mastery could allow you Paragade more successfully.

[DeMoose]

That is one thing I didn't like about ME and KOTOR. You have to stick to one side or the other for best outcomes.

I mean I was almost COMPLETELY renegade on one playthrough for ME2 but I made a couple major paragon choices which apparently was a couple too many. I couldn't resolve the Tali / Legion dispute. There wasn't a big enough difference between the two. Even though the difference was massive and renegade was full.

[J. Finley]

Yeah, I think they fixed this in that you could upgrade your charm and intimidate through points gained by leveling, which is awesome.

[Leonia]

I do hope the morality thing has been "fixed" a bit more for ME3, it's ridiculous how ME2 forces one to basically metagame their morale standing if they wish to make certain decisions and some of the conversations that are tied into the system just don't make sense.

Random NPC: Shepard, do you want milk in your tea?
Paragon response: Yes, please, here's an extra tip!
Neutral response: I can't have tea at all or it might support a third party in some way.
Renegade response: Give me coffee or get me your manager now!

Ok it's like 3 am and this example is probably terrible but I mean really tieing Paragon/Renegade points into absolutely everything is beyond silly.

[Medhia Nox]

I'm sorry - I just don't see people who are indecisive to matter at all in a large scale galactic conflict.

I agree with the great Mr. Miyagi who said, “Walk on road. Walk right side, safe. Walk left side, safe. Walk middle, sooner or later [makes squish gesture] get the squish, just like grape.”

[Pepper4]

Only losers drink paragade!

[Leonia]

Paragades/Renegons are hardly "middle of the road". It is nonsensical to go full paragon or full renegade unless your Shepard is completely ignorant and/or purposely narrow-minded. Neutral is the "middle of the road option" that you're criticising.

Modifié par leonia42, 13 juin 2011 - 04:51 .

[Dannyboy9876]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I'm sorry - I just don't see people who are indecisive to matter at all in a large scale galactic conflict.

I agree with the great Mr. Miyagi who said, “Walk on road. Walk right side, safe. Walk left side, safe. Walk middle, sooner or later [makes squish gesture] get the squish, just like grape.”

Very good way to put it.

[Medhia Nox]

I know people in real life that don't commit to anything - they're not hero types.

It's just an opinion - nothing to get upset about.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Panzavecchia wrote...

I hope it does because unlike the 2, which benefited a full paragon/renegade. (Jack and Miranda fight, Tali and Legion...) I was full Paragon against my will because I disagree with a Shepard only taking one path. I find it more realistic to say what fits in best...

I like this question.  I hate it when games punish you for mixing and matching your responses. I have a Shepard that's a middle of the road pragmatist.  It would be cool if he had his own sort of ending, rather than "Well, you got 2 points more Renegade than Paragon, so it's the full Renegade ending for you."

[Dannyboy9876]

leonia42 wrote...

Paragades/Renegons are hardly "middle of the road". It is nonsensical to go full paragon or full renegade unless your Shepard is completely ignorant and/or purposely narrow-minded. Neutral is the "middle of the road option" that you're criticising.

It's like being neutral in a war.

It may be safer, you may prefer it, but no one appreciates you much in the end.

[MarchWaltz]

On my "main" play-through, I did not meta game at all, I go case by case, I pick an option I would pick at that time.

I did not mess one of the fights up.

[Vena_86]

I don't think they will change the system much despite it beeing one of the most discussed points for ME2. "More grey areas" could mean many things.

[HypesterHypester]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I'm sorry - I just don't see people who are indecisive to matter at all in a large scale galactic conflict.

I agree with the great Mr. Miyagi who said, “Walk on road. Walk right side, safe. Walk left side, safe. Walk middle, sooner or later [makes squish gesture] get the squish, just like grape.”

Booyah.

What would a Paragade ending look like? People kinda think of leaving but don't, because you're reasonable? You develop a reputation for taking things on a case-by-case basis? That's not a good story. If Bioware really wanted to 'fix' their morality system I think they should add a third option, there are Paragons, Renegades and Mercenaries (pragmatists). Every decision gets you points toward two, but not three, of those things. Of course, then there will be four middle of the road options for people to complain about not being rewarded, so maybe that's a bad idea.

The other problem with the Paragade ist he desire for middle of the road dialogue. A lot of 'meh' options, as though saving the galaxy is done with a clear head by reasonable guys that run around with nuclear reactors strapped to their backs. Sigh.

Modifié par HypesterHypester, 13 juin 2011 - 05:08 .

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

I agree with this topic. I'm a very nice guy, but I let Garrus shoot Harkin, because Harkin had been a jerkass to me in ME1, and I never forgave him for that. Plus, he just tried to kill me and Garrus. In ME2, you really have to go out of your way to get paragon or renegade points because they're so damn rare.

It would help a lot if the maximum amount of points was lowered significantly. You can gain 30 points at once in ME2 and barely even budge the bar! That's ridiculous!

[Raiil]

I'm sorry, but not leaning completely one way or the other in-game shouldn't be equated to middle of the road. It would be one thing if you're just starting out, but after fighting waves of bad guys, punching dudes in the neck and blasting my way through merry hell, the fact that I take a nuanced, case-by-case approach to major decisions isn't middle of the road. I've already committed, this is just one decision I have to make towards the end.

I don't see how anyone could question Shepard's committment. Hello, we f--king died and instead of going to get therapy, we immediately launched a mission to save humanity, putting our personal wants and needs aside for the good of the galaxy. No vacations, no downtime, just tossing ourselves into hell for the greater good. If that doesn't say 'I'm in this to the end', people need to reassess their priorities.

[Panzavecchia]

nitrog100 wrote...

I think there's an option for that. The Paragon/Renegade bonus that you can choose to upgrade in Combat Mastery could allow you Paragade more successfully.

Nope, Tried it on my first playthrough/ The game still punishes you for the points you missed...

[Panzavecchia]

HypesterHypester wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

I'm sorry - I just don't see people who are indecisive to matter at all in a large scale galactic conflict.

I agree with the great Mr. Miyagi who said, “Walk on road. Walk right side, safe. Walk left side, safe. Walk middle, sooner or later [makes squish gesture] get the squish, just like grape.”

Booyah.

What would a Paragade ending look like? People kinda think of leaving but don't, because you're reasonable? You develop a reputation for taking things on a case-by-case basis? That's not a good story. If Bioware really wanted to 'fix' their morality system I think they should add a third option, there are Paragons, Renegades and Mercenaries (pragmatists). Every decision gets you points toward two, but not three, of those things. Of course, then there will be four middle of the road options for people to complain about not being rewarded, so maybe that's a bad idea.

I think that's the best idea.. but then like others mentioned before in this thread, how will the "mercenary" ending be... Reapers destroy humanity but some other races survive. I think two are enough. A better levelling up system would be more suitabe

The other problem with the Paragade ist he desire for middle of the road dialogue. A lot of 'meh' options, as though saving the galaxy is done with a clear head by reasonable guys that run around with nuclear reactors strapped to their backs. Sigh.

[Panzavecchia]

Jayman1337 wrote...

Yeah, I think they fixed this in that you could upgrade your charm and intimidate through points gained by leveling, which is awesome.

I think that would be better. But then dialogue options won't have any weight anymore. The intensity of dialogue options are what made Mass Effect the unique game it is today....

[Xalen]

leonia42 wrote...


Paragades/Renegons are hardly "middle of the road". It is nonsensical to go full paragon or full renegade unless your Shepard is completely ignorant and/or purposely narrow-minded. Neutral is the "middle of the road option" that you're criticising.

^ This.

Did people even try to play paragade/renegon? You don't have to be indecisive or a schizophrenic.

Wall of text incoming.

Here's an example: my canon Shepard has her Renegade bar filled by 85% in ME1 and by 100% in ME2. Is she a renegade? Well, she did destroy the Heretics and saved the Collector Base. But on the other hand, she also let the Rachni Queen go, saved all colonists on Feros and the Council and kept the geno****e data. See what I did there? Most of Renegade points actually come from conversations, major decisions are mostly paragon. Again, is she a renegade? I would say so. Her in-game interactions suggest it. Her worldview (as I created and RP it) suggests it. Her decisions? The game tell us: not so much. The morality bar tells us: 100% Renegade AND 75% Paragon. That’s a renegon, baby. So, is she indecisive? Every one of those decisions had a specific rationale behind it. Moreover, those rationales could even be attributed to renegade morality (but the points will still be paragon). And they weren't "middle of the road" decisions either since the game doesn't give any neutral choices in those cases.

Hmm, I digressed from my original point here...oh well. What I’m saying is that the morality system in games will always be flawed and limited, since it can recognize only a choice, and not the reason behind it. It can and should be a RP tool for defining personality, but major decisions should be left up to the player only. So I don’t think there should be “Paragon”, “Renegade”, “Paragade” etc. endings at all based on numbers that morality meter shows*. It should be “Ending where Shepard does A,B,C and the result is X”, “Ending where Shepard does D and E and result is Y”, with X, Y, … being comparable outcomes (neither should be the ultimate good ending). It will also allow to go into "grey areas", but not because Shepard will be neither P, not R, but because morality will not matter at all. 
I’d draw some parallels with DA2 endings and personality system, but somehow I don’t think that will go well.

*Speaking of meters...I especially liked when Samara told my Shepard that she may kill her afterwards because Shepard done some very bad things or something. But Shepard didn't! She's just not a very nice person, and therefore has more red points than blue, now she gets to die for that? Those Justicars have some really messed priorities:D

[nitrog100]

Panzavecchia wrote...

nitrog100 wrote...

I think there's an option for that. The Paragon/Renegade bonus that you can choose to upgrade in Combat Mastery could allow you Paragade more successfully.

Nope, Tried it on my first playthrough/ The game still punishes you for the points you missed...

I meant in ME3...It doesn't work so well for ME2. I always seem to full up on Paragon really quick in the original, so maybe it would work there...

[Tree fox]

Pepper4 wrote...

Only losers drink paragade!

Funny, when I first heard that I thought it was just a joke, but now? I wonder if Bioware was trying to tell us something with that comment the Tupari machine made.

[Repearized Miranda]

I watched something where it was said that the "Paragon/Renegade" thing is not equated to being good or bad because you can be Paragon Shep and still do bad things or a Renegade one and do good things. "Middle ground" does not exist in this game; however, they are not forcing you to lean one way or the other. I don't think BW shot themselves in the foot with the appropriate endings; yet, I bet alot of players - including myself - say: "Well, I was full p/r or for the majority of my playthrough. Let me go the other way to see what happens." I don't believe that BW is that naive because they know that all players will not lean to either extremity. Actions have consequences - yes, but the misnomer is that consequences are a BAD thing and they aren't.

It's not so much what would Shep do, but what would YOU do? If you took away the "How will this affect my game" away and put yourself in Shep's shoes? Paragons give the cold shoulder as much as renegades do and renegades show love as much as paragons do. ME is about ambiguity more so than this or that. A good choice my NOT end up saving the galaxy while a bad choice may NOT end up destroying it!

[J. Finley]

Panzavecchia wrote...

Jayman1337 wrote...

Yeah, I think they fixed this in that you could upgrade your charm and intimidate through points gained by leveling, which is awesome.

I think that would be better. But then dialogue options won't have any weight anymore. The intensity of dialogue options are what made Mass Effect the unique game it is today....

You're right, hopefully they can implement it in a way that won't take a way from the impact of choices.