29 réponses à ce sujet

[themonty72]

Im wondering if the Arishok and Qunaris have took Kirkwall if it wasnt for Hawk. Would Meredith and temp-lars, Orsino and mages could had stop them or been defeated. What would had become of Kirkwall if Arishok became the head and all Kikwall citizens surrendered to the Qun. Would the Grey wardens and the Divine  step in or let the terriotory remain as a Qunari takeover.

Modifié par themonty72, 13 juin 2011 - 05:40 .

[Mickespel]

The Qunari was doomed, if they succeed at taking Kirkwall they would have to kiss their behinds goodbye in a Exalted March soon after.

Modifié par Mickespel, 13 juin 2011 - 06:32 .

[Phoenix_Loftian]

As if those Chantry peons have ever exuded any significant amount of power beyond the scope of mortals.

They couldn't even stop a rebellion of mages from the Circle.They couldn't even stop Anders.

They're a bunch of good for nothings.

An army coming to destroy Kirkwall? The Arishok, just like Hawke, just like the Warden, could decimate them by himself.

[Dragonella1]

Even if they survive attack of Templars (and Circle) they would suffer huge loses and they would have to rely on new converts. Probably some elves would join them to take revenge on humans leading to stronger resistance from humans. We don't know if Arishock can call homeland for more troops without being dishonored over the lost relic. He definitely is very careful not to call for supplies as his men are still half naked after 4 years.
But if Qunari, by the Maker's miracle menage to keep Kirkwall long enough for Divine to organize exalted march they would probably save Chantry as nothing unites better as common enemy and whatever mages think about Templars and Circles they wouldn't trade them for Qun.
Generally we can count Arishock among victims of Kirkwall madness.

[ThePhoenixKing]

I doubt that the Qunari could have held onto the city for long. Even if a combination of the Kirkwall Circle, the templar, city guard and Hawke and companions couldn't beat them, the Qunari didn't have the numbers to maintain their hold, especially if the rest of Thedas got involved. With the Grey Wardens bringing word to the rest of the Free Marches, a Chantry that would call down an Exalted March on them in no time at all, and just the general madness of trying to hold onto a city that large and chaotic with a few hundred men, the Arishok's attack was really doomed before it even began.

[Ryzaki]

Nope. Meredith and the mages and templars would've taken them out. They would've suffered more losses but it would've been done.

[happy_daiz]

Ryzaki wrote...

Nope. Meredith and the mages and templars would've taken them out. They would've suffered more losses but it would've been done.

Exactly.

Wait...James Vega has a kitten?

[Rifneno]

Ryzaki wrote...

Nope. Meredith and the mages and templars would've taken them out. They would've suffered more losses but it would've been done.

Someone mark this day on the calender.  I agree with Ryzaki.

Oh, except she forgot to mention the city guard.  There's that too.  The city had three main forces (guard, mages, templar) and the only reason we see the Qunari winning is because they're still taken by surprise.  Once they rally and organize a counteroffensive, the Qunari would require a miracle to survive.  And if they did, there's no way they could hold the city from the rest of the pissed off Thedas while a team (of the already few survivors) makes its way through the what, 1000 mile voyage to Par Vollen.  Where they'd likely be executed at the gate for returning without the Tome.  Not that they'd make it there to begin with.

Yeah, the Arishok was launching a suicide attack.  Nothing more, nothing less.

[CrimsonZephyr]

My question is why the city didn't act sooner. The Qunari were holed up in a single compound in a cramped part of the docks with only one clear entrance. A skilled arsonist could have roasted the entire place, along with the Arishok and half his troops almost immediately. Kirkwall really does run on incompetence. Better to judge level the damn place. Being the Champion of Kirkwall is like leading the blind.

[Jorina Leto]

No.

[Icy Magebane]

The way the game presents it, the Qunari had way more soldiers than we actually saw... either that or the Viscount was just a coward... the humans should have attacked first IMO, and not even let them hang out for that many years.

But as for the topic... eh... honestly I don't see how the Qunari would have survived vs. Meredith, Orsino, all the Templars, all the Mages, AND all the City Guards and random volunteers... I mean hell, Hawke didn't seem to have any special powers outside of a normal mage, rogue, or warrior... IMO, Kirkwall would have won eventually, but they'd sustain heavy casualties.

Even if the Qunari had won, I'm of the opinion that an Exalted March would have solved the problem pretty quickly. It's not like the Orlesians would have tolerated a Qunari stronghold right in the heart of Thedas... a war would start, but a Qunari-occupied Kirkwall would fall quickly. You can't let the enemy hold a city like that right in the middle of your lands...

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 20 juillet 2011 - 08:12 .

[Wulfram]

If the Qunari had taken Kirkwall, then dislodging them would have been awkward - Kirkwall appears highly defensible, and can be supplied and reinforced from the sea.

But I don't see how they could have taken Kirkwall. Their plan seems to have relied on their hostages stopping the inevitable counter-attack, but Meredith probably wouldn't have cared all that much about the hostages.

[ThePhoenixKing]

Wulfram wrote...

If the Qunari had taken Kirkwall, then dislodging them would have been awkward - Kirkwall appears highly defensible, and can be supplied and reinforced from the sea.

But I don't see how they could have taken Kirkwall. Their plan seems to have relied on their hostages stopping the inevitable counter-attack, but Meredith probably wouldn't have cared all that much about the hostages.

Absolutely, especially after we see everything that's capable of, both when Dumar was in charge and when she was running the show. A woman who's willing to take control over an entire city-state and turn it into the templar's personal police-state wouldn't blink at seeing the nobility die. Hell, in the long run, it probably would have helped her if all the nobles had bought it. Maybe that explains that really venomous look she gets when she storms the throne room only to discover Hawke has solved the problem...

[Sepewrath]

I don't think they were counting on hostages, they were just planning either to convert the brass of the city or kill them. I think Meredith and co could have stopped them, but if they didn't, the Free Marches might have been screwed, because it would be damn hard to take Kirkwall back and like its been said, the Qunari could call in an army.

[TEWR]

Had Hawke not intervened and the Arishok had just continued to do what he was doing? No.

Had Hawke not intervened, had the Arishok used Hightown's stairways as the defenses they are supposed to be, and had he unleashed the Saar-qamek on the Gallows, he would've had a shot at winning. From all the corpses I saw, his forces pretty much decimated the City Guard, as they were everywhere.

Of course, a victory wouldn't mean much unless he was keeping some sort of correspondence with Par Vollen or even some Qunari contacts in other lands before the incident.

[BigEvil]

Only a stray thought as I read this topic, as I think people have the right idea on the Qunari's chances of holding Kirkwall if Hawke was not involved or had failed. But during the fighting in Hightown, when you get to the top of the steps leading out of the market area you can see the corpses of a previous fight. One Qunari soldier, and three city guard dead around him.

If the Qunari can maintain that sort of kill ratio against other forces then it would get very expensive in terms of lives if the city had to be taken from the outside by other Free Marches troops. That is of course, assuming they could cripple the Templars and Mages and force them to abandon their attack.

Also, I do wonder about the military power of the Free Marches. From what Sebastian tells us as the third son of his family, he led the city militia of Starkhaven. Maybe it's just the terminology used but a city militia doesn't even sound as well equipped and trained as a city guard to me. Do we know anything solid about any more professional military forces in the Free Marches other than Templars (who are said to be most densely stationed in Kirkwall)?

Modifié par BigEvil, 22 juillet 2011 - 08:19 .

[Ezohiguma]

I don't think that the "military" in the Free Marches is organized on a level similar to Ferelden or Orlais. The cities seem to be independent from each other, similar to the Greek city states. What we see in Kirkwall all the time are guards and mercenaries. The guards guard, stand around, patrol. They're cops. Cops can't defend a city, you need soldiers for that. The training is different after all.

Of course the qunari butchered them in masses.

Could they take Kirkwall? Absolutely. There is no trained military force to stop them. Could they hold it? No. An Exalted March would wipe them off the surface of the earth. The Arishok said himself that there was no ship coming for them, thus they wouldn't have any reinforcements anytime soon. Besiege the town, set up a naval blockade. Nothing gets in or out. Then bomb away with any siege engines you have. Level the city. It should be doable.

[Rifneno]

I noticed on my current playthrough that Viscount Dumar says the qunari landed with "what, a few hundred warriors?" And if you count the deaths in that time, and the desertions (loooots of tal-vashoth around), it's safe to say the Qunari don't have great manpower.

And like I said earlier, even they captured the city, there's NO way they could get aid from Par Vollen. Alistair said the Anderfels were over a thousand (or thousandS, I forget) miles from Ferelden. Look at the map; Par Vollen is like three quarters of that from Kirkwall. And it's not exactly friendly territory either. The sea is full of pirates and storms, neither of which would a small crew in a ship with ancient technology be able to handle well. The land is mostly Antiva, where the deepest pockets and the sharpest sword rule rather than law. Again, not a safe voyage. Reinforcements is an idle fantasy.

[ThePhoenixKing]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Had Hawke not intervened and the Arishok had just continued to do what he was doing? No.

Had Hawke not intervened, had the Arishok used Hightown's stairways as the defenses they are supposed to be, and had he unleashed the Saar-qamek on the Gallows, he would've had a shot at winning. From all the corpses I saw, his forces pretty much decimated the City Guard, as they were everywhere.

Of course, a victory wouldn't mean much unless he was keeping some sort of correspondence with Par Vollen or even some Qunari contacts in other lands before the incident.

Oh, that's something I never considered. I think you're onto something, in the short term, the Qunari might have held onto the city, but in the long run, with all of Thedas on the warpath against them, the various city-states of the Free Marches uniting against this foreign invader (about the only time they ever agree on anything) and with no way to reliably get reinforcements, it was a doomed effort.

BigEvil wrote...

Only a stray thought as I read this topic, as I think people have the right idea on the Qunari's chances of holding Kirkwall if Hawke was not involved or had failed. But during the fighting in Hightown, when you get to the top of the steps leading out of the market area you can see the corpses of a previous fight. One Qunari soldier, and three city guard dead around him.

If the Qunari can maintain that sort of kill ratio against other forces then it would get very expensive in terms of lives if the city had to be taken from the outside by other Free Marches troops. That is of course, assuming they could cripple the Templars and Mages and force them to abandon their attack.

Also, I do wonder about the military power of the Free Marches. From what Sebastian tells us as the third son of his family, he led the city militia of Starkhaven. Maybe it's just the terminology used but a city militia doesn't even sound as well equipped and trained as a city guard to me. Do we know anything solid about any more professional military forces in the Free Marches other than Templars (who are said to be most densely stationed in Kirkwall)?

A good point, and something that's worth considering, at least. Pound-for-pound, the Qunari are simply more powerful than any other military force on Thedas, with the possible exception of the Grey Wardens or the Orlesian chevaliers. They're physically stronger and tougher and possess solid (if not unbreakable) discipline. Their only real weakness in Kirkwall is the fact that their are so few of them, and they possess no means to get reinforcements, other than accepting some converts from the population. Every Qunari warrior lost cannot be replaced, and while they might be able to take down, say, the Kirkwall City Guard, they couldn't stand against the Guard and the Circle and the Templars and the ubiqitous gangs and mercenaries that call the city home, much less an Exalted March or a army of the Free Marches. Ultimately, I think the only real variable would be how much death and destruction the Qunari would leave behind when they were gone.

Interesting point about the Starkhaven militia. Without any concrete data, it's a bit hard to judge, but I get the feeling that the armies of each Free Marcher state are established around defensive combat doctrines; they're there to defend the state, and wouldn't necessarily have the numbers to go on the offensive by themselves. Moreover, each city-state is rather wary of intrusions or interference by the others, so if for example, Markham was attacking Ostwick and making some serious gains, the other cities might assist the Ostwickers just to ensure that Markham doesn't become too powerful and threaten their own interests.

As for Starkhaven, the use of the term "militia" suggests to me that its members are (largely) part-time soldiers a la the National Guard; they go on duty for a specific period, and when it ends, are rotated out to go back to their homes, families and everyday lives. in the event of an emergency, the entire Militia would be mobilized. Given that Starkhaven is the largest state in the Marches, their militia might be the most powerful of all the comparible armies, but again, without any solid evidence, this is mostly just me speculating and world-building.

Ezohiguma wrote...

Could they take Kirkwall? Absolutely. There is no trained military force to stop them. Could they hold it? No. An Exalted March would wipe them off the surface of the earth. The Arishok said himself that there was no ship coming for them, thus they wouldn't have any reinforcements anytime soon. Besiege the town, set up a naval blockade. Nothing gets in or out. Then bomb away with any siege engines you have. Level the city. It should be doable.

Ummm, why would any liberating force level the city? Seriously, what would be the purpose of that? Even the most cold-hearted and self-interested commander would realize that a stable, functioning port city that would allow them to move troops and supplies quickly (as well as fill his own coffers) would be far preferable than a flaming ruin. Do you honestly think that destroying an entire city for the sake of getting rid of a few hundred enemy warriors is in any way, shape or form a smart plan?

[magelet]

Hawke was just a person who was in the right place at the right time. If Hawke hadn't killed the Arishok, then Meredith or Orsino or...well, anyone else could still have done it.

[Sepewrath]

Ezohiguma wrote...
Could they take Kirkwall? Absolutely. There is no trained military force to stop them. Could they hold it? No. An Exalted March would wipe them off the surface of the earth. The Arishok said himself that there was no ship coming for them, thus they wouldn't have any reinforcements anytime soon. Besiege the town, set up a naval blockade. Nothing gets in or out. Then bomb away with any siege engines you have. Level the city. It should be doable.

A ship wasn't coming for them, but that doesn't mean a ship couldn't come. Also keep in mind its position along the Waking Sea and how it can control traffic. making it near impossible to attack by sea. The way the city is designed as with tight corridors would make for a Thermopylae like situation, armies would lose the advantage of numbers. Don't forget the Qunari took the city before and held it for years, a traditional campaign would prove difficult for taking Kirkwall and a more specialized campaign, that would take awhile to pull off.

[maxernst]

Sepewrath wrote...

Ezohiguma wrote...
Could they take Kirkwall? Absolutely. There is no trained military force to stop them. Could they hold it? No. An Exalted March would wipe them off the surface of the earth. The Arishok said himself that there was no ship coming for them, thus they wouldn't have any reinforcements anytime soon. Besiege the town, set up a naval blockade. Nothing gets in or out. Then bomb away with any siege engines you have. Level the city. It should be doable.

A ship wasn't coming for them, but that doesn't mean a ship couldn't come. Also keep in mind its position along the Waking Sea and how it can control traffic. making it near impossible to attack by sea.

There would be no need to actually enter the city.  All that the Andrastean nations (and I have to believe the Divine would organize a large scale attack) would need is to blockade the city until they starved.   And while it's possible that Par Vollen could send a fleet to break the siege, I doubt they would.  Maintaining a beach head so far from their main areas of interest doesn't seem likely to be worth the trouble. 

And to be honest, i'm skeptical that the Qunari are numerous enough to defeat the combined forces of the guard, the Templar and the Circle mages. I think they were only as successful as they were because of the impact of surprise. 

[RagingCyclone]

Funny thing in all of this a lot seem to forget, The Qunari have gunpowder. Makes a big difference when they decide to use it. In the game they didn't, but the Arishok does hint at using it for it's intended purposes, and when the time is right.

[Iosev]

I think a big reason why Meredith did not deal with Qunari situation until it got out of hand was because of her obsession with controlling the magi; I believe that she did not want to risk losing any of her forces to the Qunari, out of fear that she might be ill-equipped to deal with the growing sentiments of magi rebellion.

It's been a while since I played DA:O now, but if I recall correctly, Alistair said that templars are trained specifically to deal with magi, and not necessarily against all threats.

With that said, the lore seems to suggest that the Qunari are extremely powerful warriors, with technological advances (i.e., gunpowder), whereas the templars are largely trained to deal primarily with magi, so I'm not so sure that Meredith (pre-idol sword) and her templars would have been able to regain control of the city. Obviously if she were to be defeated, the Divine would summon an army to march on Kirkwall, but by then, the Arishok may have retreated back to Par Vollen.

Honestly, the only way we could see an answer to this question would be if a DLC came out called "The Qunari Chronicles", providing an alternate history, but honestly, I'd rather see more canon DLC.

Modifié par arcelonious, 25 juillet 2011 - 06:32 .

[Sepewrath]

maxernst wrote...
There would be no need to actually enter the city.  All that the Andrastean nations (and I have to believe the Divine would organize a large scale attack) would need is to blockade the city until they starved.   And while it's possible that Par Vollen could send a fleet to break the siege, I doubt they would.  Maintaining a beach head so far from their main areas of interest doesn't seem likely to be worth the trouble. 

And to be honest, i'm skeptical that the Qunari are numerous enough to defeat the combined forces of the guard, the Templar and the Circle mages. I think they were only as successful as they were because of the impact of surprise. 

Of course they would have to enter the city, there is no way they could take it back without going in. And like I said, they can control sea traffic, so a blockade of supplies and reinforcements in impossible. They already would have defeated the city the question was they could they whole it and again like I said, you could amass an army of 8 billion people outside of the city, but they all cant fit into the city. Making numbers pointless on top of that, large groups would be canon fodder for the Black Powder like the above poster mentioned. A siege from outside the city would not work, it was designed against that very kind of attack. The only way to do it, would be to sneak in small groups into the heart of the city to cripple their defenses and then a siege could begin.