56469 réponses à ce sujet

[jlb524]

Yeah, I mean...billions of asari got wiped on Thessia.

The turians sacrificed tons of lives to divert their forces to the Crucible's construction.

Lots of death and sacrifice and...speculation!

[Kilshrek]

Okay, people need to stop arguing about this. Bioware broke their own rule by making the ending a railroad canon. Just as with Origins, just as with ME 2, just as with ToB, just as with KOTOR, just as with JE, your actions and choices should determine your outcome.

What works for you doesn't necessarily work for another. As some like the endings as they are now, how would you feel if the endings were all happy rainbows and sunshine and saccharine? Would that disgust you? If it does, then welcome to the other side. I exagerrate the ending with saccharine and all that, but I just used it as an extreme illustration of my point.

The ending shouldn't be forced on us, certain elements may have to stay, as per story requirements, but Shepard living and Shepard dying should be up to the player, not the story teller, as in this case, the story teller has about as much control over Shepard as the player does.

And the question of the Normandy running should really have been explained in the game, as well as how our two squaddies ended up on the Normandy, as they were with us mere minutes earlier.

So please, with that, can we move this back to Liara?

Modifié par Kilshrek, 08 avril 2012 - 07:45 .

[IndigoWolfe]

Luxure wrote...

Well, you can *CHOOSE* to kill Wrex in ME, Ash/Kaidan.
In ME2 you can let the Normandy crew to die, you can lose all your squad members ( and yourself )
In ME3 Ash/Kaidan, Thane, Legion/Tali ( all of those if they didn't die in ME2 ), Mordin/Wrex ( if they didn't die in ME2 and ME )
And all those worlds, all those planets full of people, how can you say that the casualties were damn small ? How can you say that ?!

Well, I know when I say "casualties are low" I mean "personal" casualties which are unavoidable. The outcome where everyone possible lives is the ending most people go for, and there are only four characters who are with you personally who will die no matter what you do in the series.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

But I do honestly think if Shepard lived in any of the endings, it would cheap the endings, just to make fans head cannon happy. Sometimes you shouldn't be happy.

Ehhh. Even if Shepard survived alot of his friends have given their lives to win them this fight. So what is wrong with the hero being able to settle down after all he has been through?

Because even though a lot of friends "could" die, a lot of them can be saved. Lots and lots of them.

Ash/Kaidan
Thane
Legion
Mordin/Wrex

Thats 4 casualties throughout the trilogy.

Yep. Pretty damn small.

Mass effect always had a more heroic feel to it. So the hero always having to die rings false to me. I personally have nothing against Shepard surviving but on the flip side, I have nothing against him dying aswell. Hell, as it is now, I still pick control over destroy so my Shepard always wind up never being to come back.

Modifié par Lizardviking, 08 avril 2012 - 07:47 .

[TMA LIVE]

What I'm saying is that if given a choice, you're not going to get anyone killed. It doesn't matter if they're optional, you're going to save the people that are closest to you unless you actually do want them to die. Like with the Suicide Mission.

[moreeman06]

jlb524 wrote...

Yeah, I mean...billions of asari got wiped on Thessia.

The turians sacrificed tons of lives to divert their forces to the Crucible's construction.

Lots of death and sacrifice and...speculation!

Herr VP that may be my favorite word ever "Speculation" just rolls off the tongue doesn't it almost as much as "Artistic Integrity"  but i digress we should be talking about Liara here so lets try this.  In this "Extended Cut"  what do you think Liara's reaction to seeing Shep again will be.  Please post which ending you chose, as well.  Now people lets speculate

[Xarathox]

Lizardviking wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

But I do honestly think if Shepard lived in any of the endings, it would cheap the endings, just to make fans head cannon happy. Sometimes you shouldn't be happy.

Ehhh. Even if Shepard survived alot of his friends have given their lives to win them this fight. So what is wrong with the hero being able to settle down after all he has been through?

Because even though a lot of friends "could" die, a lot of them can be saved. Lots and lots of them.

Ash/Kaidan
Thane
Legion
Mordin/Wrex

Thats 4 casualties throughout the trilogy.

And those are only the ones you have no real control over. If a death fetish is what someone wants, choosing to ignore helping miranda, not interrupting samara's suicide and chosing not to rescue jacob and jack, that adds up to a whole lot more.

Not to mention ignoring the LMs of the ME2 squads. There's a lot of ways to get your death fetish meter to overload without having to force the PC into suicide at the end and still make it dramatic.

Single tracked minds always amuse and annoy me at the same time.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

TMA LIVE wrote...

What I'm saying is that if given a choice, you're not going to get anyone killed. It doesn't matter if they're optional, you're going to save the people that are closest to you unless you actually do want them to die. Like with the Suicide Mission.

That is correct and something that bothered me about ME2. And I am glad Bioware forced atleast 4 deaths on us in ME3.

[Tyranniac]

TMA LIVE wrote...

What I'm saying is that if given a choice, you're not going to get anyone killed. It doesn't matter if they're optional, you're going to save the people that are closest to you unless you actually do want them to die. Like with the Suicide Mission.

There is a simple solution to this: Only enable survival if sufficently well prepared. See? Problem solved.

Can you please stop being so cynical, and we can go back to discussing Liara instead?

[Tyranniac]

moreeman06 wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Yeah, I mean...billions of asari got wiped on Thessia.

The turians sacrificed tons of lives to divert their forces to the Crucible's construction.

Lots of death and sacrifice and...speculation!

Herr VP that may be my favorite word ever "Speculation" just rolls off the tongue doesn't it almost as much as "Artistic Integrity"  but i digress we should be talking about Liara here so lets try this.  In this "Extended Cut"  what do you think Liara's reaction to seeing Shep again will be.  Please post which ending you chose, as well.  Now people lets speculate

It's probably pretty safe to assume they'd only get reunited (please note that I still seriously doubt they will include a reunion of any kind) with the Destroy ending, since we see Shepard die in the others, and they said they weren't changing anything. So which ending choosen seems a bit... irrelevant.

Anyway, how could it be anything but tear-filled bliss?

Edit: Ooops...

Modifié par Tyranniac, 08 avril 2012 - 07:52 .

[Robhuzz]

moreeman06 wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Yeah, I mean...billions of asari got wiped on Thessia.

The turians sacrificed tons of lives to divert their forces to the Crucible's construction.

Lots of death and sacrifice and...speculation!

Herr VP that may be my favorite word ever "Speculation" just rolls off the tongue doesn't it almost as much as "Artistic Integrity"  but i digress we should be talking about Liara here so lets try this.  In this "Extended Cut"  what do you think Liara's reaction to seeing Shep again will be.  Please post which ending you chose, as well.  Now people lets speculate

Speechless probably. After the gift scene I really felt Liara thought she wouldn't see Shepard again, so showing up again after the ending and telling her you'd keep your promise of always coming back no matter what happened would surely make for an amazing scene.

Liara: S...Shepard? I thought... I thought you were...
Shepard: I wasn't going to break my promise to you Liara...

Something like that... I have no inspiration right now.


My Shepard picked the destroy ending. Only ending I could ever see myself pick. The Reapers won't live peacefully with organics and I'm sure as hell not going to compromise and jeapardize the future of organics again. Those Reapers are all going to be scrap metal.

[hwf]

An FYI regarding the Extended Cut.
Michael Gamble, producer and responsible for DLC content, had the following to mention on twitter fairly recently:

Q: so from the press release I'm understanding all the dlc will be is a few cinematics? Thats not what most wanted....
A: It won't just be a 'few cinematics'

Q: Not gonna lie, we do appreciate the effort. Still kind of worried that Meer/Hale have said they weren't contacted for VA yet...
A: don't worry. All that is in the works

[jlb524]

moreeman06 wrote...
In this "Extended Cut"  what do you think Liara's reaction to seeing Shep again will be.  Please post which ending you chose, as well.  Now people lets speculate

Synthesis:  "I really like you with glowy green eyes, Shepard.  They ah...illuminate your face and it's very pretty."

Control:  "Nice body...I always found EDI attractive."

Destroy:  *mindsex*

I picked Destroy.

[The Lightspeaker]

Xarathox wrote...

The key component that many miss in the interpretation is that in order for the asari to physilogically appear identical to humans, is their internal organs develop identical to humans as well. The chance of that is beyond slim.

Human-like female breasts are not mandatory in order for a mammalian species to nurture their young. in fact, most mammals on this planet don't outwardly display them, and only some do during pregnancy. A monogendered species wouldn't have to evolve identical to human females.

It's obvious as to why asari are asthetically designed from an artist's standpoint (to draw in the horndogs) but biologically there's no real reason for it as nature has proven time and again that it's not necessary.

Edit: please note I'm not trying to argue with anyone or bash our favorite blueberry...I'm just a science nerd, so it's hard for me to just turn that off sometimes when a discussion brings things like this up.

You're not the only sciencey person about, I have two biology degrees. Physiologically breasts exist to provide milk due to mammary glands. There is pretty much no reason for them to develop otherwise, you yourself admit as much through your comment that they're not mandatory in all mammalian species. They have developed that way through naturally selective evolution on the psychological basis that larger breasts and thus more mammary glands lead to healthier children due to improved nursing.

Given that asari are depicted as they are the implication is that they have developed said characteristics for exactly the same reasons. There is no physiological reason for them to develop otherwise and, in fact, logic indicates them as a negative selection trait in the absence of mammary glands (given the extra hindrance to mobility). Theres no other reason for their existence.

From a more pragmatic point of view there are only so many ways life can develop. Nature has a tendency towards "optimisation", many specific examples aside. It doesn't surprise me at all that some other sapient species would have developed a natural inclination towards breasts and mammary glands (asari, quarians), its actually quite an elegant and logical solution to nurturing young.

The point I think you're missing is that both the codex and the depiction in game are both canon. Therefore any conclusions must be drawn from a combination of the two. Regardless of whether or not there are OTHER ways of doing it that is how the asari have developed and therefore whether or not you disagree with the visualisation that is how they are.

Furthermore...I...I...

FRANCESCO84Inn wrote...

...I'm sorry what was I saying again?

Kilshrek wrote...

That's not entirely true, many of our
posters here have broshep fanfics, but I'm saying for the most part, the
maleshep/Liara angle seems to be more popular for... base reasons,
rather than romance itself. Which is a shame I will say, but since I'm
not good at art or writing fanfics, I can't really do anything about the
situation.

I have to say that I fundamentally think that the femshep/Liara romance works a lot better for me on an emotional level. I don't know why. Maybe its the voice acting. I always imagine maleshep as being more inclined to get together with Ashley or Miranda (although my one maleshep runthrough is with Tali) whereas I can easily imagine Femshep/Liara.

TMA LIVE wrote...

You clearly missed the point.

There's more meaning to sacrifice from a story perspective. Just as love has more meaning then a business relationship.

With respect, screw that. Its a badly done, very contrived plot point thats been done to death. "Hero dies in the end" is so, so overdone that its pretty much ancient history by this point. Hell, probably half the classics end that way.

More to the point when its done so nonsensically and with such a nihilistic outcome as what happens with ME3 it loses literally any impact whatsoever. The way things went Shepard would literally have been better off just getting together with Liara after Mars and spending the entire rest of the events of ME3 having mindsex until the Reapers killed everyone. It'd have led to a less messed-up galaxy without screwing over all future sapient species.


Anyway, stop posting about the ending damn it! I've had quite a nice bottle of wine and I've lost count of how much port I've drunk so I'm nicely intoxicated. I'm having a happy day, stop ruining it! I demand more Liara pictures!

[AlexMBrennan]

Who cares? Bioware's stated that they will stick to their artistic vision

[adneate]

TMA LIVE wrote...
There's more meaning to sacrifice from a story perspective.

The hero dying is literally one of the oldest story concepts in human culture, I'd almost go the exact opposite and say that "The hero dies to save everyone" is the most common crutch of a poor writer. It's hackneyed and forced thanks to centuries of overuse and used just to bludgeon emotion out of the audience.

TMA LIVE wrote...
What I'm saying is that if given a choice,
you're not going to get anyone killed. It doesn't matter if they're
optional, you're going to save the people that are closest to you unless
you actually do want them to die. Like with the Suicide
Mission.

Then why do people pick the ultimate sacrifice ending in Dragon Age: Origins? You can just bypass or it find someone else to do it? It's a roleplaying game and people's characters have lots of reasons for doing lots of things including living or dieing. If you force something huge on them they get mad because their character doesn't own the action (see ME3's ending) if you offer it to them then they own that choice and will make it if they feel it fits their character (see DA:O's ending).

[CrazyGreggy]

Robhuzz wrote...

My Shepard picked the destroy ending. Only ending I could ever see myself pick. The Reapers won't live peacefully with organics and I'm sure as hell not going to compromise and jeapardize the future of organics again. Those Reapers are all going to be scrap metal.

Yep, assuming I can bring myself to finish my runs (adept still stuck pre-Cronos Station 2 weeks after reaching that point), it'll be Destroy. As one of the fic writers said (wish I could remember who), noone should have the power the Control ending gives you, Synthesis is forcing too much on a galaxy whose consent can never be obtained.

Destroy may sacrifice the Geth and EDI, but it's the only way to ensure the Reapers are gone. Don't forget the meaning of the term catalyst - it has no direct control over the Reapers, it just created them and ensconced itself in the Citadel, the key element in every Reaper invasion until this one, guaranteeing its own "children" wouldn't destroy it. So it cowered in its hideyhole and threw the dice one last time to convince this Shepard squishy to hew to its agenda.

Eff that. Big baddaboom time.

Modifié par CrazyGreggy, 08 avril 2012 - 07:59 .

[SuperClutch16]

TMA LIVE wrote...

But I do honestly think if Shepard lived in any of the endings, it would cheap the endings, just to make fans head cannon happy. Sometimes you shouldn't be happy.

In the destroy ending, Shep lives sooo...

"Sucks to your asmar!!" (Lord of the Flies reference for those who don't know..)

Plus, I may be a guy, but I'm a romantic. So I enjoy an ending where the hero goes through hell and back and makes it back to the people s/he loves.

Shepard deserves a happy ending...especially with Liara.

[Luxure]

@SuperClutch -> [*img]http://imgboot.com/images/ennoia/faithful.png[/*img]

Remove the stars. Done.

[Sunnie]

Kilshrek wrote...
What works for you doesn't necessarily work for another. As some like the endings as they are now, how would you feel if the endings were all happy rainbows and sunshine and saccharine? Would that disgust you? If it does, then welcome to the other side. I exagerrate the ending with saccharine and all that, but I just used it as an extreme illustration of my point.

This ^

and..

Kilshrek wrote...
The ending shouldn't be forced on us, certain elements may have to stay, as per story requirements, but Shepard living and Shepard dying should be up to the player, not the story teller, as in this case, the story teller has about as much control over Shepard as the player does.

this^, clearly contradict each other.

If I read this how I think you mean it, you are missing something big. Currently, there's only only 1 ending with 3 minor subset variations, all of them have been perceived by the majority as horrible in one way or another.
They need to give players a choice on how "happy" they want their Shepard's end, which it was not. Those who don't care about Shepard or like dark depressing endings got exactly what they wanted, yet those who wanted what was eluded to throughout the games (a somewhat happy ending) didn't even get anything close to it. Simply adding this 4th option would not change the doom and gloomers ending in any way shape or form, but they seem to be quite vocal on how they feel about those who do want a happier ending. They get what they want, but its not cool if someone else gets what they want. Typical and about the exact same thing as the s/s arguments that have been raging for years now.

[SuperClutch16]

Luxure wrote...

@SuperClutch -> [*img]http://imgboot.com/images/ennoia/faithful.png[/*img]

Remove the stars. Done.

Thank you!

[ladyvader]

Hello, everyone.  Hope you're having a wonderful weekend.   

I thought I would share a few YouTube vids I made.

Both are the talk with Liara after killing Ash during the coup attempt.  I am not sure how many here are actually going to go that route, but I did.

Renegade responses
Paragon responses

I also have a vid of EDI saying Liara called her a blabbermouth.  

I thought the blabbermouth line was humorous.  With a non-import Shepard when EDI does this line, Shepard responded with "She's what?"   Which proves Liara's point that EDI can't keep a secret.

[Neeh]

This thread seems to derail into these ending arguments every so often. Isn't there enough other threads for those discussions? It's a subjective topic, might aswell just leave it at that.

[9Enrico0]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Who cares? Bioware's stated that they will stick to their artistic vision

yes but they sell mass effect 3 to us.. and we don't have their artistic vision.. we have our  artistic vision... and if i understand well our artistic vision is an happy ending....that is the same artistic vision of my 50€

[Kilshrek]

Sunnie22 wrote...

If I read this how I think you mean it, you are missing something big. Currently, there's only only 1 ending with 3 minor subset variations, all of them have been perceived by the majority as horrible in one way or another.
They need to give players a choice on how "happy" they want their Shepard's end, which it was not. Those who don't care about Shepard or like dark depressing endings got exactly what they wanted, yet those who wanted what was eluded to throughout the games (a somewhat happy ending) didn't even get anything close to it. Simply adding this 4th option would not change the doom and gloomers ending in any way shape or form, but they seem to be quite vocal on how they feel about those who do want a happier ending. They get what they want, but its not cool if someone else gets what they want. Typical and about the exact same thing as the s/s arguments that have been raging for years now.

Perhaps I didn't word it as well as I would have wanted to. My meaning was very much what you'd said there.

My first point was that there was only one ending, and it was bleak. So my meaning was that if the ending to ME 3 could only be happy, with the Reapers destroyed and everyone living happily ever after and nothing was destroyed, would that please the people who are currently happy with the ending? I believe it would not, and I used it to illustrate my point.

My next was that Bioware took away a lot of player agency in the final minutes of the game. While the story has to be told, and it must follow the overarching theme, to have Shepard die in every ending, and to have Shepard not even question or challenge the Starchild, that's taking away too much control from the player. And it irks me, it really does, that Shepard, at the end, must do things on this little stars**t's terms.

Anyway, this is the end of my derailment, if you think I didn't make myself clear, I'd be happy to try and explain myself more by PM.

Neeh wrote...

This thread seems to derail into these ending arguments every so often. Isn't there enough other threads for those discussions? It's a subjective topic, might aswell just leave it at that.

*shrugs* Slow news day. More Liara scalp crest massage is needed! :happy:

Modifié par Kilshrek, 08 avril 2012 - 08:20 .