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[Aristobulus500]

It's a good point. Liara possibly dying on Thessia would need a *lot* of work, to not just be cheap and forced. Mordin was okay because he had a tragic flaw and it was reasonable for him to die, and it was wrapping up an arc all the way from the first game. It was in character, and thematically appropriate. Legion was much the same way.

How do you make Liara dying anywhere comparable to those two? What's being gained by her death so that it's not just a cheap plot to make the player sad?

[Tyranniac]

Sunnie22 wrote...

Well, for starters, everyone that dies in ME3 has some kind of send off, a final goodbye scene. That doesn't happen with Liara until the FOB, right before the whole game goes south. Killing Liara on Thessia would not allow for the "proper" goodbye that the narrative has been adhering to over the course of this game. She also is needed for the Shadow Broker stuff that gets updated after Thessia. If I remember right, theres another researched upgrade from one of her terminals and theres a few more lore notes that she enters.

Those things doesn't really seem very essential to me, and I think a goodbye could be had as she is dying on Thessia. Seems like the small story things you mentioned could simply not appear since they aren't that important.

Still, I understand what you're saying, it would complicate things.

Aristobulus500 wrote...

It's a good point. Liara possibly dying on Thessia would need a *lot* of work, to not just be cheap and forced. Mordin was okay because he had a tragic flaw and it was reasonable for him to die, and it was wrapping up an arc all the way from the first game. It was in character, and thematically appropriate. Legion was much the same way.

How do you make Liara dying anywhere comparable to those two? What's being gained by her death so that it's not just a cheap plot to make the player sad?

 

I'm saying it would be interesting if Liara's death was an option, not forced, just to be clear. I obviously wouldn't want a forced Liara death, that'd be horrible. And as an optional death that can be avoided if you try well enough, I don't really think there needs to be that much meaning behind it other than tragedy.

Modifié par Tyranniac, 19 avril 2012 - 06:56 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Aristobulus500 wrote...

It's a good point. Liara possibly dying on Thessia would need a *lot* of work, to not just be cheap and forced. Mordin was okay because he had a tragic flaw and it was reasonable for him to die, and it was wrapping up an arc all the way from the first game. It was in character, and thematically appropriate. Legion was much the same way.

How do you make Liara dying anywhere comparable to those two? What's being gained by her death so that it's not just a cheap plot to make the player sad?

There is this.

Liara as a character does not recieve as much worth from dying as opposed to someone like Thane, Mordin or Legion.

[Sunnie]

Tyranniac wrote...

Sunnie22 wrote...

Well, for starters, everyone that dies in ME3 has some kind of send off, a final goodbye scene. That doesn't happen with Liara until the FOB, right before the whole game goes south. Killing Liara on Thessia would not allow for the "proper" goodbye that the narrative has been adhering to over the course of this game. She also is needed for the Shadow Broker stuff that gets updated after Thessia. If I remember right, theres another researched upgrade from one of her terminals and theres a few more lore notes that she enters.

Those things doesn't really seem very essential to me, and I think a goodbye could be had as she is dying on Thessia. Seems like the small story things you mentioned could simply not appear since they aren't that important.

Still, I understand what you're saying, it would complicate things.

You are discounting the fact that Liara is the co-star of the series, and the secondary protagonist. You just don't kill a character with that level of importance to the entire series in a forced manner like the Thessia battle. She is also either Shepard's LI or best friend or both. The narrative has very flatly painted Liara as Shepard's best friend at the very least. It does not help the narrative in any way to allow her to die on Thessia, and in fact, hurts it worse than the ending does to the rest of the narrative for this game because it would break from whats already established, in a forced and unnatural way.

Modifié par Sunnie22, 19 avril 2012 - 07:02 .

[CaptainDope]

You know what makes me sad? Even though Liara is seemingly the most popular LI for Shepard, the threads about Tali, Miranda and even Kaidan have hundreds of more thread pages than this one

[Tyranniac]

Sunnie22 wrote...

You are discounting the fact that Liara is the co-star of the series, and the secondary protagonist. You just don't kill a character with that level of importance to the entire series in a forced manner like the Thessia battle. She is also either Shepard's LI or best friend or both. The narrative has very flatly painted Liara as Shepard's best friend at the very least. It does not help the narrative in any way to allow her to die on Thessia, and in fact, hurts it worse than the ending does to the rest of the narrative for this game because it would break from whats already established, in a forced and unnatural way.

Now that's just not true.

[Wulfram]

I think you're looking at the series through Liaramancer coloured goggles. She's not the co-star unless the player wants her to be.

After all, she's mostly absent from ME2.

And no one's saying she should have to die, only that it might happen if you made the wrong choices somewhere.

[Aristobulus500]

CaptainDope wrote...

You know what makes me sad? Even though Liara is seemingly the most popular LI for Shepard, the threads about Tali, Miranda and even Kaidan have hundreds of more thread pages than this one

That's because Liara ISN'T the most popular LI. For a long time, she wasn't even liked by most of the fanbase, much less a favorite. It took until LotSB for people to start to come around, and ME3 really started shifting peoples opinions.

But it is REALLY HARD to break first impressions like that. Many people got set in their ways throughout ME1-ME2 and won't be convinced Liara is a good character no matter what - at any rate, even if they change their minds and allow themselves to like her, they will never consider her a favorite character.

[DarkCloudd]

CaptainDope wrote...

You know what makes me sad? Even though Liara is seemingly the most popular LI for Shepard, the threads about Tali, Miranda and even Kaidan have hundreds of more thread pages than this one

Thats cause those thread get way off topic and get super pic bombed way too often. Most of us here in the Liara thread are adults that can have adult conversations without resorting to name calling or other childish things like that.

[Sunnie]

CaptainDope wrote...

You know what makes me sad? Even though Liara is seemingly the most popular LI for Shepard, the threads about Tali, Miranda and even Kaidan have hundreds of more thread pages than this one

Thread pages =/= a good thread. Number of pages has no significance for anything.

[DOsquareZER]

CaptainDope wrote...

You know what makes me sad? Even though Liara is seemingly the most popular LI for Shepard, the threads about Tali, Miranda and even Kaidan have hundreds of more thread pages than this one

Yes but do they have quality?   Quantity isn't everything.  *looks back at all the artistic nude page filling with liara* ...hmmm

Modifié par doozer12, 19 avril 2012 - 07:14 .

[Sunnie]

Tyranniac wrote...

Sunnie22 wrote...

You are discounting the fact that Liara is the co-star of the series, and the secondary protagonist. You just don't kill a character with that level of importance to the entire series in a forced manner like the Thessia battle. She is also either Shepard's LI or best friend or both. The narrative has very flatly painted Liara as Shepard's best friend at the very least. It does not help the narrative in any way to allow her to die on Thessia, and in fact, hurts it worse than the ending does to the rest of the narrative for this game because it would break from whats already established, in a forced and unnatural way.

Now that's just not true.

Your opinion. If you don't think thats reasonable, then explain why.

[Aristobulus500]

DarkCloudd wrote...

CaptainDope wrote...

You know what makes me sad? Even though Liara is seemingly the most popular LI for Shepard, the threads about Tali, Miranda and even Kaidan have hundreds of more thread pages than this one

Thats cause those thread get way off topic and get super pic bombed way too often. Most of us here in the Liara thread are adults that can have adult conversations without resorting to name calling or other childish things like that.

This has something to do with it, too. But I'm not sure how I'd phrase it. Fact is, though, Liara is an entirely different - and I'd argue, more mature and reasonable - character than the rest. She invites a different kind of fanbase. It does color the type of discussion that forms around her and her race.

Soemthing else worth considering is this - the Asari are mostly passed over in ME3. The Quarians - and Tali - get a huge segment of the game devoted to them, with a major decision centered around them too. This will also massively help spark discussions. Liara gets a lot of work as the LI, but the Asari get basically nothing and Liara dosen't get segments like Tali/the Quarians do.

[FRANCESCO84Inn]

but what is this exigence or necessities to have the possibility to watch Liara die in Thessia, Liara come on Thessia whit Shepard only for the temple, only for found more information about the cucible, and the Dr T'soni discover more about the Asari species, she was  cryptic the troth about the Prothean,

Liara not is also the best friend, girlfriend or co-protagonist, she is the best authority about the Prothean archaelogy, she is able to foud the secret,

Liara she is in ME1 the last squad member recruiting, she is come in ME2 only whit one dlc, and now heve the some role in ME1, she return Dr T'soni, i love this part, i not like the idea to lost my Liara.

Modifié par FRANCESCO84Inn, 19 avril 2012 - 07:22 .

[Aristobulus500]

doozer12 wrote...

CaptainDope wrote...

You know what makes me sad? Even though Liara is seemingly the most popular LI for Shepard, the threads about Tali, Miranda and even Kaidan have hundreds of more thread pages than this one

Yes but do they have quality?   Quantity isn't everything.  *looks back at all the artistic nude page filling of liara* ...hmmm

Well now that's not entirely fair. There's stuff that gets posted here that's...questionable and I have some issues with, but mere nudity isn't inherently tasteless and low quality.

I mean, I would easily say that Liara's sex scenes are more tasteful and better done than say, Miranda's. Despite that Liara is naked and Miranda isn't - it's in the tone. Liara's keep it tasteful and show off chemistry and emotion between her and Shep. Miranda's have them act like virgin teenagers and has the camera zoom straight in on her ******. See the difference?

And to that level, most of the stuff that gets posted in this thread is actually relatively tasteful. Now, there's certainly some things that are tasteless and are on the level of Miranda's scenes.

To that end, it seems like say - a lot of the stuff that gets posted in other fandom threads is a bit less tasteful. I've seen all kinds of godawful fetish art made of Quarians and Tali and oh god I could go on. That just doesn't seem to happen -  as much - here.

[CaptainDope]

Aristobulus500 wrote...

CaptainDope wrote...

You know what makes me sad? Even though Liara is seemingly the most popular LI for Shepard, the threads about Tali, Miranda and even Kaidan have hundreds of more thread pages than this one

That's because Liara ISN'T the most popular LI.

I know that polls are not the most reliable to determine who is the most popular LI. But all polls I have seen have had Liara as nr one, and Tali and Miranda close by.

I think Miranda's outfit contributed a lot to her popularity. Take her cleavage and make her ass smaller and then we can see how popular she is Appearances do matter. As for Tali, I guess the matter about her "photo" must have sparked a huge amount of activity in her thread.

[Sunnie]

Wulfram wrote...

I think you're looking at the series through Liaramancer coloured goggles. She's not the co-star unless the player wants her to be.

After all, she's mostly absent from ME2.

And no one's saying she should have to die, only that it might happen if you made the wrong choices somewhere.

Whether you like it or not, it is the case. There's no story without Liara. She plays a constant major role in moving the plot forward in ME and many of the plot devices used directly involve her on a personal level. The only reason she is sidelined in ME2 is because the nature of the narrative in that segment allows for every character in it to die, she was given plot armor because she is critical to move the plot forward in ME3. Yes, she is the co-star, and yes, she is the defacto "best friend" to Shepard even if the player themselves don't think so.

[Arcataye]

Aristobulus500 wrote...
I missed where that picture of Shep/Liara was posted. That is pretty much what needed to happen for a Shep/Liara romance, after Thessia. Still boggles my mind that Bioware didn't think of that for such a significant scene.

Quite a lot of things BioWare didn't think about boggles my mind.

TheMarshal wrote...
No no no.  I have easily 6-8 more chapters after this one.

Weee! <3

CaptainDope wrote...
You know what makes me sad? Even though Liara is seemingly the most popular LI for Shepard, the threads about Tali, Miranda and even Kaidan have hundreds of more thread pages than this one

Page numbers make you sad? About the huge threads, read this.

Modifié par Arcataye, 19 avril 2012 - 07:24 .

[Aristobulus500]

I know that polls are not the most reliable to determine who is the most popular LI. But all polls I have seen have had Liara as nr one, and Tali and Miranda close by.

I think Miranda's outfit contributed a lot to her popularity. Take her cleavage and make her ass smaller and then we can see how popular she is Appearances do matter. As for Tali, I guess the matter about her "photo" must have sparked a huge amount of activity in her thread.

Liara is not the most popular character. Many people find her obnoxious, or they find her naive or weak. Lots of people view her as too young for Shepard, and think it's pedophilia. Some people really don't like the shy aspect of her character, and overblow any social awkwardness she has and hate her for that. Some find her too nerdy.

Of course I vehemently disagree with many of those statements, and some I disagree with the scale on, but it doesn't matter. There's no one here actually arguing any of that is how they feel about Liara so I'm not going to write up counter arguments to them - Point is that's just how some people feel, and it's impacted the size of her fanbase.

In the end, it's perfectly okay to be a fan of a less popular character. Liara is, at heart, a type of character that tends to get less mass appeal anyway. She's a more subtle, subdued character and you have to look closer to see her depth. Many people just don't get that invested in storylines or characters, and many others just like to attach to the first fiery thing they see, and don't like to think very much. It's okay! It's just the nature of things.

[Aristobulus500]

Arcataye wrote...
Page numbers make you sad? About the huge threads, read this.

That's actually rather amusing and basically proves to be the case, what was said earlier. Other characters invite different kinds  - and quality - of discussion. This thread is smaller, but there's no mod breathing down this threads neck saying we ****post too much.

[IliyaMoroumetz]

TheMarshal wrote...

pacer90 wrote...

I love the premise of Returned. What do you mean by section closer? I hope you're not ending at 3 chapters  

No no no.  I have easily 6-8 more chapters after this one.  I meant section closer as in there will be this section, then a time skip, then another section, then a time skip, then the final section.

I checked your story and there's only two chapters.  Something happen?

[Sunnie]

Aristobulus500 wrote...

I know that polls are not the most reliable to determine who is the most popular LI. But all polls I have seen have had Liara as nr one, and Tali and Miranda close by.

I think Miranda's outfit contributed a lot to her popularity. Take her cleavage and make her ass smaller and then we can see how popular she is Appearances do matter. As for Tali, I guess the matter about her "photo" must have sparked a huge amount of activity in her thread.

Liara is not the most popular character. Many people find her obnoxious, or they find her naive or weak. Lots of people view her as too young for Shepard, and think it's pedophilia. Some people really don't like the shy aspect of her character, and overblow any social awkwardness she has and hate her for that. Some find her too nerdy.

Of course I vehemently disagree with many of those statements, and some I disagree with the scale on, but it doesn't matter. There's no one here actually arguing any of that is how they feel about Liara so I'm not going to write up counter arguments to them - Point is that's just how some people feel, and it's impacted the size of her fanbase.

In the end, it's perfectly okay to be a fan of a less popular character. Liara is, at heart, a type of character that tends to get less mass appeal anyway. She's a more subtle, subdued character and you have to look closer to see her depth. Many people just don't get that invested in storylines or characters, and many others just like to attach to the first fiery thing they see, and don't like to think very much. It's okay! It's just the nature of things.

Don't forget that quite a few of those Liara haters only hate her because of the plot armor she has had all through the series. They couldn't knock her off in ME2 like any other character so they focus their hate in that direction.

[Wulfram]

Her plot role is fulfilled on Thessia. I also think she's less the "best friend" than Garrus is, by default.

Thessia marks a major point of crisis for her, the moment when she's closest to utter despair. It's dramatically appropriate to me if Shepard's friendship/love should be necessary to bring her through that.

[TheMarshal]

Aristobulus500 wrote...

Liara is not the most popular character. Many people find her obnoxious, or they find her naive or weak. Lots of people view her as too young for Shepard, and think it's pedophilia. Some people really don't like the shy aspect of her character, and overblow any social awkwardness she has and hate her for that. Some find her too nerdy.

Of course I vehemently disagree with many of those statements, and some I disagree with the scale on, but it doesn't matter. There's no one here actually arguing any of that is how they feel about Liara so I'm not going to write up counter arguments to them - Point is that's just how some people feel, and it's impacted the size of her fanbase.

In the end, it's perfectly okay to be a fan of a less popular character. Liara is, at heart, a type of character that tends to get less mass appeal anyway. She's a more subtle, subdued character and you have to look closer to see her depth. Many people just don't get that invested in storylines or characters, and many others just like to attach to the first fiery thing they see, and don't like to think very much. It's okay! It's just the nature of things.

While I agree with you that Liara is a subtle character that you have to examine closely to truly appreciate, I am also fully aware that she was designed to fill the virginal damsel-in-distress archetype that appeals to a number of people.  Same thing with the asari.  But both have managed to capture my imagination far beyond whatever initial design goals they may have been created with.

It's also clear that she's a writer/designer/producer favorite, and as such has been given an unprecedented amount of screen time and plot-importance.  While there is a small, vocal minority that loathes her, a slightly larger minority which simply dislikes her being "forced" upon the player, I would argue that Liara is definitely one of the most popular characters in the game outside of Shepard.

[Tyranniac]

Sunnie22 wrote...

Your opinion. If you don't think thats reasonable, then explain why.

I don't even know how I could possibly explain that. There's just no way it would have a worse impact on the narrative than the ending. No way at all. It might distrupt the narrative, yes, but not like that!

Sunnie22 wrote... 
Yes, she is the co-star, and yes, she is the defacto "best friend" to Shepard even if the player themselves don't think so.

 

I would say Garrus could compete for this role.